Learning about Orthodoxy

[Hepzibah]

Below is a testimony that really spoke to me decades ago, but I recommend its conclusion for yourself as far as converting or non converting etc. I wish they hadn't shortened the original article, because I found the extra details very helpful. But anyway, there is a point that happens when you realize you got more in common with the Orthodox than you do whatever denomination you are with. That is the hallmark of leaving. It should take more work to stay then to leave.

Recovering the Ancient Paths

by Dennis L. Corrigan “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever” The following is a revision of a letter (article) we wrote to the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel to explain…

journeytoorthodoxy.com

There also was a testimony very like it from a Vineyard church that was also in my neck of the woods.

From Vineyard Pastor to Orthodox Priest — Three Hierarchs Orthodox Church

Fr. Seraphim Bell Things have been shaking at the Vineyard Christian Fellowship in San Jose, California. Worship here has taken on a whole new dimension. As pastor, I still prepare for worship by focusing my heart through private prayer. But no longer do I conclude those prayers by tuning my guita

www.wenorthodox.com

Thankyou very much for the links you provided and your own testimony. Mine was very much on that line, coming from nearly 50 years of Evangelicalism, some of it as a Calvinist, and slowly seeing that it did not match the early church in its doctrines.

I had read a lot on entire sanctification which is the western interpretation of Theosis, and it was this that fired my readings of the early church but also those later on who taught it, including Fr. Seraphin Rose. However, what really made me accept the early church as the only true Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church was where they differed on this as I saw that the western churches teaching was not complete and that there are three stages not two. As you said, a lot of my questions throughout my Christian life were answered by what I was reading, as it had much more spiritual depth and understanding of scripture.

After reading about Fr Theofan the Recluse, from one of your links, I decided to read the book mentioned, but had trouble finding an online copy, and not wanting to waste any money if the book has the corruption of the west, which is unfortunately found in some Fathers today like Fr Peter Heers who says that sanctification is gradual, I looked and found THE PATH TO SALVATION, A Manual of Spiritual Transformation by the same author so read through it this morning.

I will comment on what I though of this book later, but would just like to ask you, when does baptism of the Spirit occur, is it when an infant is baptized with water, or at some other point?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The ancient paths that the bible speaks of is not talking about a return to old covenant forms of worship and godliness. That way lies a fall from grace, I'm afraid. The devil has ancient paths of his own, I've seen and felt it and I understand how it can be quite alluring. Entertaining even, or an escape from the hum-drums of daily life.

But Jesus, the Captain of our faith, is our example and showed us the Way.....let us not depart from it. I pray the Lord to open some eyes and hearts to this below, as He was gracious to do for me:

2Co 11:3-4

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Yeah, this is a straw man., Ancient Path's metaphorically speaking, but this post and the other ones from Big Boy do remind me why I don't post here most of the time.

 

[Wynona]

@Lizbeth
Orthodox members have awe and wonder for the faith. I find this refreshing because I am constantly seeing people hammering arguments as if everyone who does not agree with their very specific interpretation of Scripture is going straight to hell and they are the enlightened ones sent to get everything right.

This doesn't lead to awe and wonder.

"Knowledge puffs up. Love edifies."

The strength of Orthodoxy (in my humble opinion) is that they know they don't know everything and refer to the great cloud of witnesses in Christian history as guides for becoming like Christ.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

will comment on what I though of this book later, but would just like to ask you, when does baptism of the Spirit occur, is it when an infant is baptized with water, or at some other point?

Yes I do believe that, although I believe there is some kind of grace that is given just by being raised Christian, by Christian parents who teach us to pray to Jesus etc. But it is funny for folks raised Catholic or any other body that is does infant baptism where they believe it later to be invalid because of the ideology of the Church that you often see evidence to the contrary that the baptism was much more effectual than they gave it credit for.


But you know I also believe that this is true that Children can also receive Communion too. Unlike the Western tradition they not only can receive but they should receive it. Basically, that they need Catechesis when they are of age, but it is a "suffer the little Children to come unto me situation".

 

[Lizbeth]

Yeah, this is a straw man., Ancient Path's metaphorically speaking, but this post and the other ones from Big Boy do remind me why I don't post here most of the time.

Yes, but the devil is a counterfeiter. He counterfeits things that are true and are God's.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Yes, but the devil is a counterfeiter. He counterfeits things that are true and are God's.

Satan does not lead people into Godliness.

Matthew 7:15-20

New King James Version

​

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits​

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

 

[Lizbeth]

@Lizbeth
Orthodox members have awe and wonder for the faith. I find this refreshing because I am constantly seeing people hammering arguments as if everyone who does not agree with their very specific interpretation of Scripture is going straight to hell and they are the enlightened ones sent to get everything right.

This doesn't lead to awe and wonder.

"Knowledge puffs up. Love edifies."

The strength of Orthodoxy (in my humble opinion) is that they know they don't know everything and refer to the great cloud of witnesses in Christian history as guides for becoming like Christ.

This scripture came to mind sister, it is how the old covenant Israelites viewed God, and only the priests could enter the holy of holies on behalf of the people, and that at such peril they had to have a rope tied to their ankle in case they died there. But now we who know the Lord may come boldly to the throne of grace. In recent years I am being continually struck with similarities between old covenant worship and Orthodox (as well as RCC):

Heb 12:18-24

For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[Lizbeth]

Satan does not lead people into Godliness.

Matthew 7:15-20​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits​

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Unfortunately he does lead souls to forms of godliness that deny the power....and he leads them to seek to establish their own righteousness (Godliness) rather than submitting to the righteousness of God in Christ. Fruits can be and need to be discerned, whether they are of God or of self.

 

[Wynona]

In recent years I am being continually struck with similarities between old covenant worship and Orthodox (as well as RCC):

I'm no expert, but this is intentional. The royal priesthood with Christ at the center is rooted in prophecy and Scripture. If you haven't honestly asked why they practice this and looked up the answer from the Orthodox perspective, you can't just write it off as Satanic.

 

[Hepzibah]

Yes I do believe that, although I believe there is some kind of grace that is given just by being raised Christian, by Christian parents who teach us to pray to Jesus etc. But it is funny for folks raised Catholic or any other body that is does infant baptism where they believe it later to be invalid because of the ideology of the Church that you often see evidence to the contrary that the baptism was much more effectual than they gave it credit for.

I don't use scripture like Protestants, but as the early church, I believe that scripture will not contradict the teaching direct to the church via those who were/are united with Christ, apostles and their followers, which was expected of all bishops until there were not enough to continue with this boundary, and it says:

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21, which is saying that it is not water baptism that saves us but Theosis - good conscience - of the person.

As there is only one baptism:

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph4:5-6.

And I wonder how you equate that with this verse:

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

So the infant which according to EO is born innocent, how could he then need to be made free from sin? When will the person free from sin, (which they were anyway before water baptism) as you are saying we find in baptized infants, will they fall from that? Do parents witness this in their children? One day without sin and the next day full of it?

And is it not baptism into Christ what happens as seen at Pentecost, that makes one united with Christ as we see in the disciples afterwards?

This just does not equate with the three steps to Theosis of the early church- Purification, Illumination and Deification

But you know I also believe that this is true that Children can also receive Communion too. Unlike the Western tradition they not only can receive but they should receive it. Basically, that they need Catechesis when they are of age, but it is a "suffer the little Children to come unto me situation".

I don't see a problem with Communion for children.

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus did not say that tradition made the word of God ineffectual, he said "Your" traditions. He was speaking to the Jews.

"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye."

There's nothing wrong with tradition, as long as its scriptural.

He was speaking to the Jew first, then the Gentile. There is nothing new under the sun, what has been will be again, said wise old Solomon. All flesh is the same....prone to the same tendencies, whether Jew or Gentile.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Unfortunately he does lead souls to forms of godliness that deny the power....and he leads them to seek to establish their own righteousness (Godliness) rather than submitting to the righteousness of God in Christ. Fruits can be and need to be discerned, whether they are of God or of self

And how would you know this? Do you have omniscience to look into men's hearts? Or some special revelation given unto you? No I don't think so, this is just the typical Spiritualized Self Confirming Bias that I see all the time.

Matthew 7:1-3

King James Version

​

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[Lizbeth]

I'm no expert, but this is intentional. The royal priesthood with Christ at the center is rooted in prophecy and Scripture. If you haven't honestly asked why they practice this and looked up the answer from the Orthodox perspective, you can't just write it off as Satanic.

I believe in the priesthood of all believers, and that there is to be no schism in the body between the spiritual gifts/members of it (no clergy/laity division like under the old covenant). God's ways are not man's ways.

People can find ways to rationalize absolutely anything to make it seemeth right to man. The carnal mind is enmity with God.

 

[Lizbeth]

Matthew 7:1-3​

​

King James Version​

​

​

7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Actually we are told to judge those inside the church, who claim Christ, but not those outside. But in the sense of condemning, no we are not to condemn others but we certainly can and do need to DISCERN.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Actually we are told to judge those inside the church, who claim Christ, but not those outside. But in the sense of condemning, no we are not to condemn others but we certainly can and do need to DISCERN.

FYI - Every area of Christianity has their version of "the Priesthood of believers" even Roman Catholicism, and the actual RC version is not as far off as the Lutheran one from which I was raised with.

 

[Wynona]

I believe in the priesthood of all believers, and that there is to be no schism in the body between the spiritual gifts/members of it (no clergy/laity division). God's ways are not man's ways.

People can find ways to rationalize absolutely anything to make it seemeth right to man. The carnal mind is enmity with God.

I see a great opportunity to learn something. For me, you, and everyone here.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

If you don't mind me going off topic, based on recent conversation, the Priesthood of believers is a good case in point of all the stuff you learn as an Eastern Christian. The typical Protestant understanding makes this as a unique thing we have post New Testament. But if you are Orthodox you actually realize how much that was actually in Judaism from the get go.

Lots of scriptures about God's people being "Kings and Priests" in not just the Mosiac law, but that goes back to Abraham and Melchizedek. And even the rite of circumcision, that had different meanings and uses in the Near East, but the consecration to priesthood was definitely one big one.

 

[shepherdsword]

Sadly that pathway leads to reformed theology which is not biblical and leads to deception.







Yes, constant in holding on to deception.

Reformed theology became accepted widespread primarily with Augustine who was a gnostic and modern so called "orthodox" churches today still hold to many unbiblical teachings brought for by this Augustine character

So the pathway you are on is one the devil is trying very hard to keep you on as this pathway leads to scripture twisting and heresy which is listed as one of the world of the flesh (see Galatians 5:19-21) that cause people who do these things to not inherit God's Kingdom.

These people seek to impress others with their "rich history" and their "theological degrees" from supposedly big time thological colleges and universities but it's all a ruse to entice others to join them in their deception

You should do yourself a favor and continue with what God's teaches in His Word and refrain from allowing others to influence you in to departing from the truths found in God's Word.





Jesus said tradition makes the word of God of none effect





See there,. he's already telling you to depart from God's Word and believe things not from the Lord, thing not taught by Jesus, His Apostles and not accepted by the early church

Sounds like you have already accepted their seed of deception. Sad.

This dude in the video is demonic! Beware!

Greek Orthodox is very different from reformed theology

Topic	Greek Orthodox	Reformed (Calvinist) Theology
Authority	Scripture and Holy Tradition (including Church Fathers, councils, liturgy)	Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone as final authority)
Salvation	Synergy: cooperation between God's grace and human freedom	Monergism: God alone acts in salvation (predestination)
Original Sin	Ancestral sin: humans inherit death and corruption, not guilt	Total depravity and inherited guilt from Adam
Theosis (deification)	Central: salvation is union with God and participation in divine nature	Not a major emphasis; focus is on justification and sanctification
Predestination	Rejected: God foreknows, but does not predetermine	Affirmed: unconditional election and predestination of the elect
View of Justification	A lifelong process involving faith and works	Justification by faith alone (sola fide)

Summary:​

• The Greek Orthodox Church is not Protestant and does not accept the theological foundations of the Reformation (16th century).
• It views many Reformed doctrines—especially sola scriptura, sola fide, and double predestination—as theologically incorrect or even heretical.
• The Orthodox Church sees itself as the original, unbroken continuation of the apostolic Church, whereas Reformed theology arose from a break with Catholicism.

So while both traditions are Christian, their theologies are incompatible on core doctrines.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Greek Orthodox is very different from reformed theology

Topic	Greek Orthodox	Reformed (Calvinist) Theology
Authority	Scripture and Holy Tradition (including Church Fathers, councils, liturgy)	Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone as final authority)
Salvation	Synergy: cooperation between God's grace and human freedom	Monergism: God alone acts in salvation (predestination)
Original Sin	Ancestral sin: humans inherit death and corruption, not guilt	Total depravity and inherited guilt from Adam
Theosis (deification)	Central: salvation is union with God and participation in divine nature	Not a major emphasis; focus is on justification and sanctification
Predestination	Rejected: God foreknows, but does not predetermine	Affirmed: unconditional election and predestination of the elect
View of Justification	A lifelong process involving faith and works	Justification by faith alone (sola fide)

Summary:​

• The Greek Orthodox Church is not Protestant and does not accept the theological foundations of the Reformation (16th century).
• It views many Reformed doctrines—especially sola scriptura, sola fide, and double predestination—as theologically incorrect or even heretical.
• The Orthodox Church sees itself as the original, unbroken continuation of the apostolic Church, whereas Reformed theology arose from a break with Catholicism.

So while both traditions are Christian, their theologies are incompatible on core doctrines.

Nice summary did you use Grok?

 

[Hepzibah]

Reformation doctrines came directly from Augustine of Hippo who departed from early church teachings and has been or is classed as a heretic by many EO.