Then show your scripture and history.
No, it is not a matter of your opinion it is Scripture and history.
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Then show your scripture and history.
No, it is not a matter of your opinion it is Scripture and history.
The Law of Moses has not passed away. It is just not in effect during the time of the Gentiles (grace). It will be in effect again when the grace church is taken away.
The Law of Moses has passed away when Christ died on the cross on our behalf, for all those who believe in him by faith...the bible says:
Hebrews 8
[sup]7[/sup] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
[sup]13[/sup] In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9
[sup]11[/sup] But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. [sup]12[/sup] Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. [sup]13[/sup] For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, [sup]14[/sup] how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? [sup]15[/sup] And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
The Mediator’s Death Necessary
[sup]16[/sup] For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [sup]17[/sup] For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. [sup]18[/sup] Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. [sup]19[/sup] For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, [sup]20[/sup] saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.” [sup]21[/sup] Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. [sup]22[/sup] And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice
[sup]23[/sup] Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [sup]24[/sup] For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; [sup]25[/sup] not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— [sup]26[/sup] He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. [sup]27[/sup] And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [sup]28[/sup] so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Galations 3
[sup]10[/sup] For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [sup]11[/sup] But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” [sup]12[/sup] Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”
[sup]13[/sup] Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), [sup]14[/sup] that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Acts 13
[sup]38[/sup] Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; [sup]39[/sup] and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. [sup]40[/sup] Beware therefore, lest what has been spoken in the prophets come upon you:
[sup]41[/sup] ‘ Behold, you despisers,
Marvel and perish!
For I work a work in your days,
A work which you will by no means believe,
Though one were to declare it to you.’”
Why would God send his only begotten Son, Jesus, our redeemer, to die on behalf of the world [John 3:16] and then return back to a shadow [which was pointing to his coming] Why would God re-install the Law of Moses? which is the law of sin and death......The bible says that each covenant was dedicated by blood...whose blood would be greater than the blood of Jesus so that the Law of Moses can be re-installed? :huh:
Your wrong brother....the Law of Moses will not come back into play again....
Shalom!
Thanks for your opinion that I am wrong but you really should get past the standard blended theology of the church.
God choose the Jews to be His people. All the prophecies in the O.T. was about how God would send a Messiah and that He would rule the earth from Israel.
But the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah and God turned to the Gentlies.
However God will turn back to the Jews at His second coming. The following scripture point to that time as happening when the fullness of the Gentiles has been accomplished.
Luke 21:24
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
NKJV
Luke 21:29-31
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.
30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near.
NKJV
The above was said to the Jews and it was telling them that the promised kingdom would be near when they saw these things. One of the signs would be the budding again of the fig tree (Israel). This happened in 1948 when the nation of Israel (the fig tree) was reborn.
Acts 1:6-8
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
NKJV
In the above it is the Jewish Apostles that were asking about the Jewish kingdom.
Veteran said:
What are other reasons why the Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) doctrine of men is from devils?
My reply:
Do you remember the vision that Peter had? God told Peter that he was not to call what God called clean, unclean. You should take that to heart when you condemn those that have placed their faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.
Veteran said:
Some brethren have a misconception about that idea of men, and think it does include later repentance and asking our Lord Jesus forgiveness after having believed on Him and baptized.
My reply:
A true child of God “KNOWS” that his/her sins are forgiven, not because they say words but because they truly believe Jesus’ shed blood pays for their sins. But, of course, if anyone does not believe their sins are forgiven then they aren’t and their sins remain and condemn them.
Veteran said
:
In reality, the heart of that doctrine does not include repentance of later sins, but instead totally shucks the possible existence of later sins we might commit. Afterall, once you're saved, you're saved, right?
My reply:
You only listen to what is in your own head. As I have said before, true repentance is a CONSTANT HONEST ATTITUDE that a child of God has in their hearts, acknowledging to God that they are sinful in the flesh. It is not a one time event. What part of that statement do you not understand? Many, and IMHO you, think repentance is a ritual that gets them out of sin. These do not believe Jesus’ shed blood pays for all their sins and since they don’t believe it their sins remain.
Veteran said
:
The devils behind that doctrine don't want Christian brethren to realize how dangerous the heart of that idea is. It's because those devils WANT to destroy us. Not repenting and asking forgiveness of our later sins will destroy our walk by The Spirit in Christ Jesus. It means those sins are still on the slate, not wiped clean. It will create complacency away from our walk with Christ Jesus. That's what the Devil wants, to draw us away from Christ to make it easier for us to be led into darkness.
My reply:
Your doctrine draws men away from Christ to salvation by the efforts of men. In reality the Devil is behind the idea that man can influence their own salvation by what they do. The Devil wants men/women to be religious AND LOST.
What you teach is that Jesus’ shed blood only cover past sins. You limit the power of God shown in the cross. You, and many others, teach that what a person does can transform the flesh into flesh that does not sin. That salvation is the work of God up to a point and then it depends on the flesh to finish it. - That doctrine diminish to power of God and the work of Jesus on the cross. I really don’t think that God is pleased with that idea.
Richard! Do you not know the church is made up of all believers in Christ? Now you are dividing His Body into 2 separate categories, how is that even possible? Those believing in Christ are all heirs, Christ was the firstfruit among many.
The Israelites were a shadow of things to come, the OT was all in the physical, now, we are in the spiritual.
Richard, could you please, define the gospel for us? I would really like to know what you think it is?
The scriptures divide the Jews and the Gentiles but you don't see it.
RO 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
RO 8:5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
RO 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
RO 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
RO 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
RO 8:22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
RO 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.
RO 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
RO 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."
RO 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Great posts, what WE believe can sometimes go against what the BIBLE says. I usually look at the BIBLE like this. There is A B and C:
A: Is one opinion/belief of the bible
B: Is the BIBLE as it is meant to be
C: IS another opinion/belief of the bible
This illustrates how we can have 2 diff opinions or more on what god said, but the fact of the matter is he said that.
We are MAN, we are imperfect... God says scripture interprets scripture, not imperfect man.
Its nice to see how people post scriptures to back-up what they are saying, but do it in context, and one scripture in context means the entire bible. You cant have the new Testament without the old, and vice versa. This also means you cant pick one scripture out of the new testament without considering the origins of it. You cannot understand Jesus' principals and teachings without STUDYING the entire word. His word is whole. Some people focus on the old, and some on the new. Christ is the author of both.
We have to take everything into consideration. When talking about the law, search every scripture that talks about the law and study them to fully understand the meaning, because to the naked eye, it would look like a contradiction. W
When god makes anything, its perfect period. God cannot lie, and god does not change. God created the TEN commandments.
When Christ makes anything its perfect, period. Christ cannot lie, and christ does not change (HE IS GOD) Christ created the ten commandments.
With that being said. God the father said that the law is FOREVER Binding.
With that being said, Christ said he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.
The SIN in man kept us from keeping the TEN commandment, now im not talking about the "Law of moses" These are 2 different things, IDK why people like to combine these things, this is why many are confused, MOSES did not write the BIG TEN, GOD did, its GODS law, however MOSES DID set up ordinances that he wrote and place outside of the arc of the covenant. These are the rituals and things paul talks about that are done away with, READ leviticus, this is the stuff WE are DONE WITH. BUT GODS LAW GOES ON FOREVER.
Think about it... If the 10 commandments were gone, then we wouldn't have anything to judge us for sin. That makes sense. If there was no 10 commandments then jesus would not need to come back, we would be in a free do whatever world. That's not the case.
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Richard! Do you not know the church is made up of all believers in Christ? Now you are dividing His Body into 2 separate categories, how is that even possible? Those believing in Christ are all heirs, Christ was the firstfruit among many.
The Israelites were a shadow of things to come, the OT was all in the physical, now, we are in the spiritual.
Richard, could you please, define the gospel for us? I would really like to know what you think it is?
That attempt to divide Jews and Gentiles is part of the false modernist views of Dispensationalism (from C.R. Stam, et al). They don't treat even The Four Gospel Books as meant for Gentile believers, but Paul's Epistles only as applying to Gentiles. Several here on this forum that support the false Pre-trib rapture theory hold that view.
The O.T. was written to the Jews. In it there were many prophesies of the coming of a Jewish Messiah that would be their king.
The First 4 books of the N.T. were written to show how Jesus fulfilled all that was written about Him in the O.T.
John 20:30-31
30 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book;
31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
NKJV
But the Jews rejected Jesus and God HAS TEMPORARILY turned to the Gentiles untill the time of the Gentiles end.
Luke 21:24
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
NKJV
Since salvation could not be through the Jews any longer God sent Paul with the gospel that was "HIDDEN IN GOD," The gospel of grace.
The grace gospel is not found in the O.T. nor in the first 4 books of the N.T. Nor is it found in any of the writting of the 12 Apostles. If it had been it would not have been hidden.
You can rant and rave all you wish to but this is what I believe and have been taugh by the Holy Spirit.
YES! I believe that those that believe the gospel of grace and have placed their faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' shed blood on the cross will not be put to shame.
Romans 10:9-12
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
NKJV
I believe that anyone, both Jews and greek (Gentile) are saved in the same way TODAY under the gospel of grace so your charge that I have left the Jews out is false.
Am I to assume brother, that you've never really studied the Old Testament prophets to any real depth?
That's what your statement causes me to think, because Apostle Paul's preaching of the 'mystery' that Salvation would also go to the Gentiles was preached from the Old Testament prophets. That's where Paul was pulling from. And to cast off those OT prophecies would be to cast off Paul's preaching to the Gentiles. Obviously then, not everything God gave through the OT writers was only to, nor only about Israel. That's why the Gentiles need to study the Old Testament Books too.
That's true, but it's also true that the Four Gospels ARE the MAIN WITNESS of The Gospel of Jesus Christ TO ALL PEOPLES, not just to Israel alone.
Per my Bible, quite a number of believers were among the Jews in the Apostle's days. Paul even taught in Rom.11:1-5 that God had even preserved a remnant of Israel to Himself within The Gospel. The Book of Acts has many details about Jews that converted to Christ Jesus.
So just WHO really lost Christ's Salvatiion, for the believers of Israel certainly DID NOT?
That's where that false doctrine you've been taught falls by the wayside again, because it tries to separate ALL of Israel away from Christ's Salvation, which is a lie of course. I wonder how Messianic Jews here that have believed on Christ Jesus feel about that?
That certainly is a bunch of hogwash. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is to ALL peoples, and the idea of God's Grace CANNOT BE SEPARATED FROM IT, not when It is preached to Israelites, nor when preached to Gentiles. You do greatly err in not understanding The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
But what was it that was actually 'hidden' which Paul spoke of? It was the idea that God's Grace through His Salvation Plan by Christ Jesus, the very SAME Salvation He planned from the beginning, first given to Israel, was to also go to the Gentiles, and that many Gentiles would ALSO believe. That His Grace only began with Paul and Gentile believers is such a false doctrine, I must assign it to another one of the 'doctrines of the devil'.
Paul said this about a remnant of the seed of Israel...
Rom 11:4-6
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
(KJV)
Yet, what you have been preaching is a false separation between Jews and Gentiles, for that is exactly what declaring two separate gospels, one for each group, does! You're listening to another 'spirit', not The Holy Spirit, when you push the false dual gospel idea.
You GOT that false dual gospel idea from heeding men's traditions, for several others here on the forum have that same idea as you about two gospels, and that doctrine never came into being until the 1800's with John Darby and the Pre-trib rapture theory. Both of those doctrines are un-Biblical.
You believe as you wish and I will believe what I have been taught by the Holy Spirit.
I will believe God's Word as written through the Power of The Holy Spirit, thank you.
You only think you do.
You do not believe James 1:1 was written to the Jews. You think it was written to the Gentile church and it doesn't say that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Paul address many of his Epistles specifically to peoples living in his day?
Rom 1:7
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)
Well, you weren't in Rome then, so that would leave you out.
1 Cor 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
(KJV)
You weren't there at Corinth either, so that wouldn't apply to you either.
Shall I keep going with this?
I'm certain others here get the idea, even if you don't.
It's like Apostle Paul said to Timothy...
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)