Limited atonement is a false gospel

[amigo de christo]

To the trenches one and all . In all that we do and say MAY IT GLORIFY HE who has saved us .

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The Counsel of Dort came up with the TULIP acronym. Calvin didn't.

Oops, my error. You are correct. That changes things in my mind. I thought he contrived the acronym, which I myself have argued against. It seems to put God's foreknowledge and grace in a nice neat box - which should not have been done. It's got flaws - as I see it.
Being that Calvin did not develop this acronym and that it was later derived from his teachings, it makes me respect and value his teachings more ... shines a new light on them.

The tenets of his teachings:

• Calvin believed that humanity is profoundly affected by the fall of Adam and, in their natural state, are unable to come to God or choose spiritual good. > Agree
• He emphasized that man's "senses, intellect, affections, and will all share in man's spiritual deadness". > Agree
• This concept underscores that salvation is entirely a work of God's grace, not human effort. > Agree, although we cooperate with the works that He plans for us to do - we do NOT earn our salvation. We earn rewards though.
• Calvin taught that God, before the creation of the world, chose to save a specific group of people, known as the elect, purely based on His sovereign will and not on any foreseen merit in them. > Agree
• He viewed this election as a demonstration of God's sovereign grace and a fundamental aspect of salvation. > Agree
• Calvin's "Institutes" dedicates a significant section to the doctrine of predestination and election. > Agree
• While there is debate about the extent to which Calvin explicitly taught limited atonement in the same terms as later Calvinists, his writings show a clear focus on the efficacy of Christ's death specifically for the elect. > Agree. Therefore Limited Atonement was not taught_ in those words_ by Calvin.
• Calvin believed that Christ died with the definite intention of securing the salvation of those whom God had chosen. > Agree
• He taught that Christ's atonement effectively bought and secured the salvation of the elect, guaranteeing their redemption. > Agree, OSAS
• Calvin taught that when God extends His saving grace to the elect, it is effective and cannot be ultimately resisted. > Disagree. This doctrine divides Grace into "saving grace" and "common grace". Grace is grace. We are born rebelling and resisting against His Law. If in God's Grace, He truly draws ALL MEN TO HIMSELF, we must conclude that many resist. Therefore Irresistible Grace is wrong. He just knows the ones who will and will not ( foreknowledg)
• He argued that God's grace overcomes the natural resistance of the sinful heart and enables individuals to believe and come to Christ. > Agree, I would add that spiritual blindness can only be lifted by God and then we see and He persuades us, enables us.
• Calvin believed this irresistible grace is a necessary consequence of God's electing purpose. > Again, disagree!
• Calvin taught that those who are truly saved will remain in faith and persevere to the end. > Agree, OSAS
• He believed that God's electing purpose guarantees the security of the elect and that they will not lose their salvation. > Agree, OSAS
• This perseverance is seen as a result of God's faithfulness in preserving those He has chosen. > Agree

Interesting, I do agree with most of his teachings; I guess just not the acronym which sort of evolved.

 

[Lizbeth]

Something the LORD revealed to me
and its real simple and IT SURE DO GIVE HIM the GLORY and it sure is what is best for mankind .
And what is this .
ANYTHING contrary to GOD no matter how small or how great it might seem
IS BAD NEWS for any people .
We ought to not overlook ANYTHING for sake of unity and fellowship
WHICH is contrary too GOD all mighty .
I already know all about meats drinks and days , WHICH ARE NOT SIN
but willfull worship .
SO the church better and should never allow one of its members
to ever beleive or even try and teach
ANYTHING that in anyway is contrary TO THE VERY GOD WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SO THANKFUL TOO
for even having spared us and showed us mercy .
ALL SIN , ALL ERROR , ALL FALSE DOCTRINES will be exposed on my watch .
AND if we understand
WE had seen THAT ANYTHING that anyone does that is contrary to GOD , DARN SURE DONT WORK GOOD
to the one doing it . THE LOVE OF GOD IS A BEAUTIFUL THING SISTER
IT GLORIFIES HIM and HOW it do keep the church safe .

Amen. This scripture comes to mind:

2Ti 4:2-4

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

We seem to be in those days now. So many believers don't seem to know what the gospel is any more. And I read someone on another thread say the church is right where it's supposed to be, and not to be so negative. Oh dear, no it isn't, sadly. Just because the Lord foresaw the falling away, doesn't mean it's "supposed" to be.

 

[Marvelloustime]

The time is to HONOR GOD ALL MIGHTY .
And anything that is contrary to Him must be exposed and corrected for the sakes
of those in error and Unto the GLORY of GOD , which to repent giveth him GLORY .
I have come to make void the victim card and all its strategic movements and momentum .
Which has done naught to correct and as a result , GUESS what too over . EVIL DID .
We make our stand now . All sin and error must
be corrected . And leaven not allowed to silence the mouths of those who speak truth .
Look at society . take a good long look at it
because that is what happens when one panders to the victim card , which did nothing but give power to the evil .
Now look at these churches under the judge not ,correct not
AND LOOK REAL closely to what is now taking them over too . Evil is .
Those who mock GOD now stand bodly against any and all who would dare to expose the evil .

@amigo de christo

 

[Scott Downey]

Oops, my error. You are correct. That changes things in my mind. I thought he contrived the acronym, which I myself have argued against. It seems to put God's foreknowledge and grace in a nice neat box - which should not have been done. It's got flaws - as I see it.
Being that Calvin did not develop this acronym and that it was later derived from his teachings, it makes me respect and value his teachings more ... shines a new light on them.

The tenets of his teachings:

• Calvin believed that humanity is profoundly affected by the fall of Adam and, in their natural state, are unable to come to God or choose spiritual good. > Agree
• He emphasized that man's "senses, intellect, affections, and will all share in man's spiritual deadness". > Agree
• This concept underscores that salvation is entirely a work of God's grace, not human effort. > Agree, although we cooperate with the works that He plans for us to do - we do NOT earn our salvation. We earn rewards though.
• Calvin taught that God, before the creation of the world, chose to save a specific group of people, known as the elect, purely based on His sovereign will and not on any foreseen merit in them. > Agree
• He viewed this election as a demonstration of God's sovereign grace and a fundamental aspect of salvation. > Agree
• Calvin's "Institutes" dedicates a significant section to the doctrine of predestination and election. > Agree
• While there is debate about the extent to which Calvin explicitly taught limited atonement in the same terms as later Calvinists, his writings show a clear focus on the efficacy of Christ's death specifically for the elect. > Agree. Therefore Limited Atonement was not taught_ in those words_ by Calvin.
• Calvin believed that Christ died with the definite intention of securing the salvation of those whom God had chosen. > Agree
• He taught that Christ's atonement effectively bought and secured the salvation of the elect, guaranteeing their redemption. > Agree, OSAS
• Calvin taught that when God extends His saving grace to the elect, it is effective and cannot be ultimately resisted. > Disagree. This doctrine divides Grace into "saving grace" and "common grace". Grace is grace. We are born rebelling and resisting against His Law. If in God's Grace, He truly draws ALL MEN TO HIMSELF, we must conclude that many resist. Therefore Irresistible Grace is wrong. He just knows the ones who will and will not ( foreknowledg)
• He argued that God's grace overcomes the natural resistance of the sinful heart and enables individuals to believe and come to Christ. > Agree, I would add that spiritual blindness can only be lifted by God and then we see and He persuades us, enables us.
• Calvin believed this irresistible grace is a necessary consequence of God's electing purpose. > Again, disagree!
• Calvin taught that those who are truly saved will remain in faith and persevere to the end. > Agree, OSAS
• He believed that God's electing purpose guarantees the security of the elect and that they will not lose their salvation. > Agree, OSAS
• This perseverance is seen as a result of God's faithfulness in preserving those He has chosen. > Agree

Interesting, I do agree with most of his teachings; I guess just not the acronym which sort of evolved.

Irresistible grace, I view it here, for me anyway

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

We were given to Christ by the Father before time began to be saved, that is being foreknown and predestined.
We are born again according to His will alone not our will.
We do cooperate, yes, as we receive Him after being taught by the Father, people got it all wrong to say such a thing is forced.

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I personally believe that being born again is a thing of the Spirit, and not of yourself
I also believe you must be born again in order to hear and believe in Christ, in essence you must be 'of God' to hear Christ through God's power.

John 6
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life.

John 8
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus tells us of the work of God in those who will believe in Him
To have His word abiding in you would refer to having been born again of the Spirit of God
Such a person is teachable by God.
If you do not have that abiding inside of you, you will not be willing to come to Christ.


John 5

31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not [e]true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

 

[amigo de christo]

Jesus tells us of the work of God in those who will believe in Him
To have His word abiding in you would refer to having been born again of the Spirit of God
Such a person is teachable by God.
If you do not have that abiding inside of you, you will not be willing to come to Christ.


John 5

31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not [e]true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.

37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

If a man ran up to you and asked you , dear sir what must I DO to be saved .
What would you tell him .
Would it be what paul told the jailor . BELEIVE YE ON CHRIST JESUS and YE shall be saved .
Or would it be what more and more in this generation now beleive , A LIE , but they call it love .
And do as did the leaders of this interfaith interreligious dialogue did
and LIED to them false religoins and said HEY we all serve the same GOD in different ways . That is of anti christ .
Scott , when is this people gonna figure out
That the finding common ground IS the snare . I mean look at even the religions towers they now build
HOUSES of muslim , christain , jew and etc . THAT outta tell us ALL THEY Are really doing is
SETTING UP A ONE WORLD RELIGOIN that all religoins will agree upon and beleive IS OF GOD . and its all a lie . all of it a lie .

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Irresistible grace, I view it here, for me anyway

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

We were given to Christ by the Father before time began to be saved, that is being foreknown and predestined.
We are born again according to His will alone not our will.
We do cooperate, yes, as we receive Him after being taught by the Father, people got it all wrong to say such a thing is forced.

John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

I personally believe that being born again is a thing of the Spirit, and not of yourself
I also believe you must be born again in order to hear and believe in Christ, in essence you must be 'of God' to hear Christ through God's power.

John 6
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life.

John 8
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

I believe in predestination. However there is that verse that says God draws all men To Himself, but not all come.
Jesus expresses sorrow over Jerusalem's unwillingness to be gathered and protected like chicks under a hen's wings.
Resistance to the Holy Spirit: Stephen confronts his audience, saying they "always resist the Holy Spirit," mirroring their ancestors' resistance.
Refusal to come to Jesus for life: Jesus notes that people study the Scriptures for eternal life but refuse to come to Him, who the Scriptures testify about, showing a resistance to His invitation.
Sin is a form of resistance.
Pride is a form of resisting God's will.
The elect resist His grace sometimes fir a lifetime, then close to death, they lose their fight and surrender. My parents did. So the term irresistible grace must be wrong. God lifts the veil of blindness, we can't, but we begin with doubts, reservations and as we get closer to Christ, we do realize the truth, but itbis not without resistance. My Pastor said before he got saved, the altar call came and he was fighting it and felt like he was being dragged down the isle.