amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
To the trenches one and all . In all that we do and say MAY IT GLORIFY HE who has saved us .
Limited atonement is a false gospel
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Oops, my error. You are correct. That changes things in my mind. I thought he contrived the acronym, which I myself have argued against. It seems to put God's foreknowledge and grace in a nice neat box - which should not have been done. It's got flaws - as I see it.
Being that Calvin did not develop this acronym and that it was later derived from his teachings, it makes me respect and value his teachings more ... shines a new light on them.
The tenets of his teachings:
- Calvin believed that humanity is profoundly affected by the fall of Adam and, in their natural state, are unable to come to God or choose spiritual good. > Agree
- He emphasized that man's "senses, intellect, affections, and will all share in man's spiritual deadness". > Agree
- This concept underscores that salvation is entirely a work of God's grace, not human effort. > Agree, although we cooperate with the works that He plans for us to do - we do NOT earn our salvation. We earn rewards though.
- Calvin taught that God, before the creation of the world, chose to save a specific group of people, known as the elect, purely based on His sovereign will and not on any foreseen merit in them. > Agree
- He viewed this election as a demonstration of God's sovereign grace and a fundamental aspect of salvation. > Agree
- Calvin's "Institutes" dedicates a significant section to the doctrine of predestination and election. > Agree
- While there is debate about the extent to which Calvin explicitly taught limited atonement in the same terms as later Calvinists, his writings show a clear focus on the efficacy of Christ's death specifically for the elect. > Agree. Therefore Limited Atonement was not taught_ in those words_ by Calvin.
- Calvin believed that Christ died with the definite intention of securing the salvation of those whom God had chosen. > Agree
- He taught that Christ's atonement effectively bought and secured the salvation of the elect, guaranteeing their redemption. > Agree, OSAS
- Calvin taught that when God extends His saving grace to the elect, it is effective and cannot be ultimately resisted. > Disagree. This doctrine divides Grace into "saving grace" and "common grace". Grace is grace. We are born rebelling and resisting against His Law. If in God's Grace, He truly draws ALL MEN TO HIMSELF, we must conclude that many resist. Therefore Irresistible Grace is wrong. He just knows the ones who will and will not ( foreknowledg)
- He argued that God's grace overcomes the natural resistance of the sinful heart and enables individuals to believe and come to Christ. > Agree, I would add that spiritual blindness can only be lifted by God and then we see and He persuades us, enables us.
- Calvin believed this irresistible grace is a necessary consequence of God's electing purpose. > Again, disagree!
- Calvin taught that those who are truly saved will remain in faith and persevere to the end. > Agree, OSAS
- He believed that God's electing purpose guarantees the security of the elect and that they will not lose their salvation. > Agree, OSAS
- This perseverance is seen as a result of God's faithfulness in preserving those He has chosen. > Agree
Amen. This scripture comes to mind:
2Ti 4:2-4
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
We seem to be in those days now. So many believers don't seem to know what the gospel is any more. And I read someone on another thread say the church is right where it's supposed to be, and not to be so negative. Oh dear, no it isn't, sadly. Just because the Lord foresaw the falling away, doesn't mean it's "supposed" to be.
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Irresistible grace, I view it here, for me anyway
John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
We were given to Christ by the Father before time began to be saved, that is being foreknown and predestined.
We are born again according to His will alone not our will.
We do cooperate, yes, as we receive Him after being taught by the Father, people got it all wrong to say such a thing is forced.
John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I personally believe that being born again is a thing of the Spirit, and not of yourself
I also believe you must be born again in order to hear and believe in Christ, in essence you must be 'of God' to hear Christ through God's power.
John 6
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life.
John 8
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Last edited:
Jesus tells us of the work of God in those who will believe in Him
To have His word abiding in you would refer to having been born again of the Spirit of God
Such a person is teachable by God.
If you do not have that abiding inside of you, you will not be willing to come to Christ.
John 5
31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not [e]true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
To have His word abiding in you would refer to having been born again of the Spirit of God
Such a person is teachable by God.
If you do not have that abiding inside of you, you will not be willing to come to Christ.
John 5
31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not [e]true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me.
37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
41 “I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
If a man ran up to you and asked you , dear sir what must I DO to be saved .
What would you tell him .
Would it be what paul told the jailor . BELEIVE YE ON CHRIST JESUS and YE shall be saved .
Or would it be what more and more in this generation now beleive , A LIE , but they call it love .
And do as did the leaders of this interfaith interreligious dialogue did
and LIED to them false religoins and said HEY we all serve the same GOD in different ways . That is of anti christ .
Scott , when is this people gonna figure out
That the finding common ground IS the snare . I mean look at even the religions towers they now build
HOUSES of muslim , christain , jew and etc . THAT outta tell us ALL THEY Are really doing is
SETTING UP A ONE WORLD RELIGOIN that all religoins will agree upon and beleive IS OF GOD . and its all a lie . all of it a lie .
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I believe in predestination. However there is that verse that says God draws all men To Himself, but not all come.
Jesus expresses sorrow over Jerusalem's unwillingness to be gathered and protected like chicks under a hen's wings.
Resistance to the Holy Spirit: Stephen confronts his audience, saying they "always resist the Holy Spirit," mirroring their ancestors' resistance.
Refusal to come to Jesus for life: Jesus notes that people study the Scriptures for eternal life but refuse to come to Him, who the Scriptures testify about, showing a resistance to His invitation.
Sin is a form of resistance.
Pride is a form of resisting God's will.
The elect resist His grace sometimes fir a lifetime, then close to death, they lose their fight and surrender. My parents did. So the term irresistible grace must be wrong. God lifts the veil of blindness, we can't, but we begin with doubts, reservations and as we get closer to Christ, we do realize the truth, but itbis not without resistance. My Pastor said before he got saved, the altar call came and he was fighting it and felt like he was being dragged down the isle.
I focus on the Shepherd so I have no fear of being misled or drawn away from Him. As one of His sheep I have no interest in hearing another voice. He said, My sheep hear My voice. He went on to say.... he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. This truth is very comforting don't you think.
You are not my sheep so I don’t have any responsibility of trying to convince you of truth. I'll leave that in our Good Shepherd's hands.
Thankfully I enjoy a unique personal relationship with my Lord, my Saviour. Yes, I know Him and more importantly, He knows me. I have no fear that I may be one of those foolish virgins Jesus refered to. Why, because we know eachother, we have an active ongoing personal communication that is not through the scriptures or bible. It's a straight, point to point communication that doesn't require a go between. It's a beautiful relationship.
Again, the onus is on Jesus, the Head of His body to ensure its health and well-being. I'm definitely not going to continue to bear the extreme weight of this responsibility. But you and others can.
I know what you're saying.
I look at the end result to decide if the grace was irresistible or not.
I had a long discussion once over the learning from the Father verses.
The guy was claiming some people were 'better learners' and they came to Christ, a sort of better sheep idea.
Which I found a horrible idea. He was promoting an evolutionary POV to spirituality where the strongest got to survive as they learned better than the weak ones in the faith. And he absolutely did not believe in predestination.
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
My POV to the verse is the 'all' is 'all that are taught', not all men, as that agrees with predestining and the other things Jesus taught in John 6.
Jesus was goading Paul towards Himself, yet Paul was resisting, but ultimately God won that battle, just as He wins in all His purposes.
That is why God is ultimately irresistible. And look what happened with Jonah and that fish
Acts 9:4-6
New King James Version
4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [a]It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
That is why God is ultimately irresistible. And look what happened with Jonah and that fish
Acts 9:4-6
New King James Version
4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. [a]It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
Genesis 41
25 Then Joseph said to Pharaoh, “The dreams of Pharaoh are one; God has shown Pharaoh what He is about to do: 26 The seven good cows are seven years, and the seven good [b]heads are seven years; the dreams are one. 27 And the seven thin and ugly cows which came up after them are seven years, and the seven empty heads blighted by the east wind are seven years of famine. 28 This is the thing which I have spoken to Pharaoh. God has shown Pharaoh what He is about to do. 29 Indeed seven years of great plenty will come throughout all the land of Egypt; 30 but after them seven years of famine will arise, and all the plenty will be forgotten in the land of Egypt; and the famine will deplete the land. 31 So the plenty will not be known in the land because of the famine following, for it will be very severe.
32 And the dream was repeated to Pharaoh twice because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
25 Then Joseph said to Pharaoh, “The dreams of Pharaoh are one; God has shown Pharaoh what He is about to do: 26 The seven good cows are seven years, and the seven good [b]heads are seven years; the dreams are one. 27 And the seven thin and ugly cows which came up after them are seven years, and the seven empty heads blighted by the east wind are seven years of famine. 28 This is the thing which I have spoken to Pharaoh. God has shown Pharaoh what He is about to do. 29 Indeed seven years of great plenty will come throughout all the land of Egypt; 30 but after them seven years of famine will arise, and all the plenty will be forgotten in the land of Egypt; and the famine will deplete the land. 31 So the plenty will not be known in the land because of the famine following, for it will be very severe.
32 And the dream was repeated to Pharaoh twice because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Chosen... but within a spiritual war going on, wrestling with the powers of darkness that unbelievers aren't aware of. Yes, fir certian the "elect"_ by the end of our lives_ will finally surrender, when the enemy influencing us and our own pride is defeated but not without many years of rebelliousness, which is resistance.
The question I have as one having been chosen is, Why, if His Grace was irresistible, wasn't I saved at 11 years old and everyone else for that matter? We'd be introduced to Christ through the message of the Gospel, He'd lift our veils and all saved at a young age, willingly without resistance and start living a godly, obedient life, experiencing a wonderful relationship with God and all His blessings, love and guidance tiwards living life in the full. Pride would automatically disappear and we'd willingly obey, immediately obey, the transformation into the likeness of Christ happening like a rush if adrenaline. Why did it take 25 years of living in darkness, sinning, lusting, making many major life mistakes, if His grace shined on me and it was irresistible? It sure seems like I resisted. I certainly would have lived a different and better life if I had been saved at a young age. So it appears His intention was for me to go through the life I did? And my mother certainly resisted for her whole life until days before she died in her eighties, my Dad too. "Irrestible grace" just seems like an oxymoron to me. His Grace is effectual and pure, but it sure doesn't come easy and takes awhile to penetrate for some.
The Author of our faith writes quite of different story for each of us. For many, it is a journey, lost in darkness, yet protected and guided by grace ( unbeknownst to us) towards that ultimate divine appointment that may be decades or a lifetime away. He stands there and Knicks, but the door does not readily open with Christ standing there ... no, it's like a door that exists somewhere in the middle of a maze that we have to find. It reminds me of the Maze Runner.
I don't think complacency and taking things for granted or abdicating our part in this are going to bring us safely home. It says somewhere to take heed who thinks he stands lest he fall.
Just was not yet your time to believe.
Paul describes this for himself in his own calling.
We are not all called 'irresistibly' and immediately on hearing the gospel.
We are most certainly called effectually in His time for us when it pleases Him to do so.
Check out verse 11-17
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me,To the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Only One Gospel
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert[a] the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be [b]accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
Call to Apostleship
11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 1 - New King James Version
Greeting - Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our...
Similar threads
- Poll
