Listening to what Jesus says about the church in our time.

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Episkopos

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Who has an ear to hear what Jesus is saying to the church in our own time?

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
 
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Trekson

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There are many people out there who believe that the seven churches of Revelations 2 & 3 represent the various church ages throughout history. This is how it was broken down by a gentleman named Gary Cohen:

Ephesus - The Apostolic Church - 30AD-100AD
Smyrna - The Persecuted Church - 100-313AD
Pergamos - The State Church - 313-590AD
Thyatira - The Papal Church - 590-1517AD
Sardis - The Reformed Church - 1517-1790AD
Philadelphia - The Missionary Church - 1790-1900AD
Laodicea - The Apostate Church - 1900AD-Present Day

There may be a remote possibility to this line of thought but it is highly doubtful. It is more likely that if they represent anything other then the actual churches to whom this letter was written, they represent the various types of believers that will be going through part of Daniel's 70th week and are to be taken totally within the context of the final seven year period.

Each church has some things in common besides being an actual church in the time of John. They are written to the "Angel" or "Messenger", by implication it is speaking to the "Pastor" of the church. All have promises made to those that are overcomers. To overcome is to vanquish the enemy, to be triumphant over difficulty.

There are several reasons why I don't believe they represent the various ages of the church.

1. Jesus had nothing against Smyrna and Philadelphia - I don't believe there has ever been an age that could be considered the "perfect" church, until we become His bride. I'm sure during every "age", if that is what they represented, Christ could find some way for us to improve.

2. Christ continuously promised that His return was near - I don't think that Jesus even knew that it would take a couple of thousand years but if they represented the various ages of church history then six of the seven would have been mislead.

3. To be an overcomer is more of an individual goal rather then a group effort.

4. The overcomers in each church are promised things that could only have a post rapture or post judgment of believers significance.

5. For present day churches, the final generation of pre-millenial believers on earth, to be lumped into the lukewarm category, just doesn't fit. Yes, we do have many churches that fit that category but we also have some of the greatest missionary efforts throughout history occurring as well.

6. Some consider the Laodicean church to be the believers that are left behind at the pre-trib rapture, thus there lukewarm state and are aka the "Tribulation" saints. Personally, I believe the Tribulation saints to be the not yet raptured church and are called trib saints because that is what they are experiencing when they do get raptured, but according to scripture many will die for their beliefs and become martyrs. Would lukewarm believers do this?

Utilizing the context of the seven churches, pre-trib rapturists find great significance in these verses, Rev. 3:3b and 3:10 and the fact that the word church isn't used in Revelations after chapter three. The problem is that both verses are cause and effect verses. Rev. 3:3b"...But if you do not wake up (the cause), I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you." (the effect) Interestingly, it implies that if you are awake then you will know the signs of His appearing and won't be taken by surprise, which totally contradicts what pre-trib rapturists believe in regards to the imminence of His return. You can see this as well in Rev. 3:10, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently,(the cause) I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." (the effect).

Sincere christians who hold to the pre-tribulation rapture theory often cite this verse, among others, as "proof" that their eschatology is correct. They focus on the second part, ..."I will also keep you from the hour of trial...", meaning they expect to raptured, but ignore the first part of this verse, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently...". Since you have done this, I will do that. How does one endure patiently and what does it involve? Here are a couple of other references that will give us a clue to what Jesus is telling us. Col. 1:11, "...so that you may have great endurance and patience...", James 1: 3, "... the trying of your faith worketh patience" (KJV) and James 5:10, "Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering..."

The word patience in these verses conveys the idea of "endurance in the midst of adversity." This idea can also be found in the prophetic scriptures of Luke 21:16-19, 2 Thess. 1:4, Rev. 13:10 and Rev. 14:12. One can not assume that because some christians in other parts of the world are being martyred and others are going through various trials of sickness, loss of loved ones, minor persecutions, etc. that these qualify what this verse is talking about. They don't! We have had these problems since the day of Christ's Ascension and will continue to have them. This verse is talking about events that will affect all christians around the world, as the "hour of trial" will affect the whole world.

The word temptation as used in the KJV of this verse, means a time of testing separate from the Day of the Lord's Wrath. His wrath is for those who failed the test! The test is the Great Tribulation, that short time in the midst of Daniel's 70th week that consists of Satan's wrath against and persecution of the church. Those who "keep the word of His patience" (KJV) are those still living believers who will overcome the difficulties of the first 3 1/2 yrs. and the great trib that follows.

As far as the word church not being mentioned after chapter 3, there is a simple explanation. It is found in Rev. 1:19, "Write, therefore, what you have seen (the past - Rev.1,4 & 5 and 12:1-7), what is now (John's present time - Rev. 2 & 3) and what will take place later." (the future - Rev. 6 to the end except for the beginning of chap.12) That the word church isn't used after Rev.3:22 is an accurate statement but somewhat misleading.
Although the word church isn’t used, synonyms for it are.

The word saints is used 13 times depicting the church. Some scholars feel that the word saints is only used for Jewish believers but it is used in the new testament 48 times to describe the church.
Servants
#is used 6 times,
Those who reverence your name
#(Rev.11:18), and #those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testament of Jesus#(Rev.12:17) are two other phrases that indicate the church,
Rev.17:14, uses called, chosen and faithful followers#

While there are a few select verses that speak directly to Israel and/or Jerusalem in Revelations, as gentile believers we are grafted into Israel, (Rom.11:17) and thus share in some of her prophetic future discomforts as well as her blessings.
The importance of realizing that the church will be here for the majority of the 70th week can be found in this statement. "It is impossible to effectively train an army for a major battle if the soldiers are told they will never have to participate."
 

Episkopos

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There are many people out there who believe that the seven churches of Revelations 2 & 3 represent the various church ages throughout history. This is how it was broken down by a gentleman named Gary Cohen:

Ephesus - The Apostolic Church - 30AD-100AD
Smyrna - The Persecuted Church - 100-313AD
Pergamos - The State Church - 313-590AD
Thyatira - The Papal Church - 590-1517AD
Sardis - The Reformed Church - 1517-1790AD
Philadelphia - The Missionary Church - 1790-1900AD
Laodicea - The Apostate Church - 1900AD-Present Day

There may be a remote possibility to this line of thought but it is highly doubtful. It is more likely that if they represent anything other then the actual churches to whom this letter was written, they represent the various types of believers that will be going through part of Daniel's 70th week and are to be taken totally within the context of the final seven year period.

Each church has some things in common besides being an actual church in the time of John. They are written to the "Angel" or "Messenger", by implication it is speaking to the "Pastor" of the church. All have promises made to those that are overcomers. To overcome is to vanquish the enemy, to be triumphant over difficulty.

There are several reasons why I don't believe they represent the various ages of the church.

1. Jesus had nothing against Smyrna and Philadelphia - I don't believe there has ever been an age that could be considered the "perfect" church, until we become His bride. I'm sure during every "age", if that is what they represented, Christ could find some way for us to improve.

2. Christ continuously promised that His return was near - I don't think that Jesus even knew that it would take a couple of thousand years but if they represented the various ages of church history then six of the seven would have been mislead.

3. To be an overcomer is more of an individual goal rather then a group effort.

4. The overcomers in each church are promised things that could only have a post rapture or post judgment of believers significance.

5. For present day churches, the final generation of pre-millenial believers on earth, to be lumped into the lukewarm category, just doesn't fit. Yes, we do have many churches that fit that category but we also have some of the greatest missionary efforts throughout history occurring as well.

6. Some consider the Laodicean church to be the believers that are left behind at the pre-trib rapture, thus there lukewarm state and are aka the "Tribulation" saints. Personally, I believe the Tribulation saints to be the not yet raptured church and are called trib saints because that is what they are experiencing when they do get raptured, but according to scripture many will die for their beliefs and become martyrs. Would lukewarm believers do this?

Utilizing the context of the seven churches, pre-trib rapturists find great significance in these verses, Rev. 3:3b and 3:10 and the fact that the word church isn't used in Revelations after chapter three. The problem is that both verses are cause and effect verses. Rev. 3:3b"...But if you do not wake up (the cause), I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you." (the effect) Interestingly, it implies that if you are awake then you will know the signs of His appearing and won't be taken by surprise, which totally contradicts what pre-trib rapturists believe in regards to the imminence of His return. You can see this as well in Rev. 3:10, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently,(the cause) I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." (the effect).

Sincere christians who hold to the pre-tribulation rapture theory often cite this verse, among others, as "proof" that their eschatology is correct. They focus on the second part, ..."I will also keep you from the hour of trial...", meaning they expect to raptured, but ignore the first part of this verse, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently...". Since you have done this, I will do that. How does one endure patiently and what does it involve? Here are a couple of other references that will give us a clue to what Jesus is telling us. Col. 1:11, "...so that you may have great endurance and patience...", James 1: 3, "... the trying of your faith worketh patience" (KJV) and James 5:10, "Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering..."

The word patience in these verses conveys the idea of "endurance in the midst of adversity." This idea can also be found in the prophetic scriptures of Luke 21:16-19, 2 Thess. 1:4, Rev. 13:10 and Rev. 14:12. One can not assume that because some christians in other parts of the world are being martyred and others are going through various trials of sickness, loss of loved ones, minor persecutions, etc. that these qualify what this verse is talking about. They don't! We have had these problems since the day of Christ's Ascension and will continue to have them. This verse is talking about events that will affect all christians around the world, as the "hour of trial" will affect the whole world.

The word temptation as used in the KJV of this verse, means a time of testing separate from the Day of the Lord's Wrath. His wrath is for those who failed the test! The test is the Great Tribulation, that short time in the midst of Daniel's 70th week that consists of Satan's wrath against and persecution of the church. Those who "keep the word of His patience" (KJV) are those still living believers who will overcome the difficulties of the first 3 1/2 yrs. and the great trib that follows.

As far as the word church not being mentioned after chapter 3, there is a simple explanation. It is found in Rev. 1:19, "Write, therefore, what you have seen (the past - Rev.1,4 & 5 and 12:1-7), what is now (John's present time - Rev. 2 & 3) and what will take place later." (the future - Rev. 6 to the end except for the beginning of chap.12) That the word church isn't used after Rev.3:22 is an accurate statement but somewhat misleading.
Although the word church isn’t used, synonyms for it are.

The word saints is used 13 times depicting the church. Some scholars feel that the word saints is only used for Jewish believers but it is used in the new testament 48 times to describe the church.
Servants
#is used 6 times,
Those who reverence your name
#(Rev.11:18), and #those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testament of Jesus#(Rev.12:17) are two other phrases that indicate the church,
Rev.17:14, uses called, chosen and faithful followers#

While there are a few select verses that speak directly to Israel and/or Jerusalem in Revelations, as gentile believers we are grafted into Israel, (Rom.11:17) and thus share in some of her prophetic future discomforts as well as her blessings.
The importance of realizing that the church will be here for the majority of the 70th week can be found in this statement. "It is impossible to effectively train an army for a major battle if the soldiers are told they will never have to participate."

Say what?
 

veteran

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He's basically saying that man's ideas of separate Church Ages is a big HO-AX.

And it is, since our Lord Jesus linked the seven Churches to seven candlesticks in Heaven. That means ALL SEVEN MESSAGES ARE STILL IN EFFECT FOR ALL CHURCHES TODAY.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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The messages were for the seven churches in those seven locations at that time .... but I think today (and in previous years) we can still see copies of them.

I have always found it interesting the differences in the various churches .... and the mistakes they make .... yet the author (Jesus) still considers them His churches .

Many of us would like to kick them out , but He does not.

Must be a lesson there somewhere.
 

Episkopos

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Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

Where are the accusers of the truth of the gospel of Christ???? Why not accuse Jesus of preaching a works gospel? Why not reconsider that maybe we are wrong? Doesn't the word of Jesus carry more weight than whatever indoctrination we may have been subjected to? A true disciple questions himself...Is it I Lord??? But a false disciple would never question his own beliefs...

What does lukewarm mean??? It means there is a form of godliness but not from the heart...it is a head knowledge posing as a passion. It is like a cardboard cutout of the truth. Wood hay and stubble...

We will all be judged by our works...not our beliefs... It is amazing that so few can see this.


Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth


Those who think that belief is enough don't realize that we must believe from the heart.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


What does it mean to be spewed from His mouth? It means rejection into outer darkness. This is the fate of many professing Christians today...they will not listen to reproof...they will not be exhorted...no they are already too smug in their own salvation. They think that their poor performance is justified somehow by the righteousness that is in Christ. These do not love the Lord...they love what He has to give them. But He has tested these and found them wanting.
 

veteran

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The messages were for the seven churches in those seven locations at that time .... but I think today (and in previous years) we can still see copies of them.

I have always found it interesting the differences in the various churches .... and the mistakes they make .... yet the author (Jesus) still considers them His churches .

Many of us would like to kick them out , but He does not.

Must be a lesson there somewhere.

The lesson of those seven Messages most overlooked is how Jesus had no problem with only 2 of the seven Churches, and the specific Message He gave only to those 2 Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia.

Only those 2 Churches were in the real thick of the battle against His enemies, because Christ pointed that out to them in conjunction with how they had stayed faithful to His Word, and thus Christ had opened the 'door' to them, the key of David. Those who do not know the history of the "synagogue of Satan" do not have the 'door' opened.
 

Episkopos

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Were we not warned about the falling away before the end? Why does Jesus say He comes as a thief in the night??? Why this allusion?

Well. for many in the church Jesus IS coming to take away...take away their false appreciation of reality. He is coming to burn up their works and take away their standing in God. So for many if not most the return of Jesus will bring a net loss. This is why He refers to His coming as a thief....

Will the church wake up and repent? Naw...people will need to be forced to give up what their pride and religious senses grasp so tightly. There WILL be weeping and gnashing of teeth in anger. It is ironic that those who hold the partial truth but in unrighteousness are doing so from the stubborness of the old nature. These can't fathom a life without the part of them that was attracted to "being saved" in the first place. So the foundation is all wrong. There is no practice of the truth therefore the foundation is on shifting sand.
 

veteran

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The "as a thief" metaphor is from the idea of a 'watchman' per the OT prophets. Jesus covered that in more detail at the end of Matthew 24. If you know in what watch the theif comes, you would not have allowed your house to be broken into.
 

Episkopos

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The "as a thief" metaphor is from the idea of a 'watchman' per the OT prophets. Jesus covered that in more detail at the end of Matthew 24. If you know in what watch the theif comes, you would not have allowed your house to be broken into.

But if your house was already open to the lost of this world as well as to the brethren then there would be no need to break in!!!
 

veteran

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But if your house was already open to the lost of this world as well as to the brethren then there would be no need to break in!!!

Our Lord Jesus did not apply the metaphor that way.


Matt 24:43-51
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We are to remain sober and watching for our Lord's coming. Not only that, we are to know in what "watch" that is to be per that metaphor. That's about the "times and the seasons" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5. It's the reason our Lord Jesus gave us the 7 signs of the end per this Matt.24 chapter, and His Book of Revelation. Like He said in Isaiah, before He does things He tells us of them.


45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

Christ reveals another level to this matter of watching. We are to be as stewards over the house giving the meat in due season. It's about those He entrusted over His Church giving the congregation the strong meat at the proper time, i.e., revealing the events of the end leading up to His return, preparing His Church for His coming...

...which is why He said the following...

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)
 

dragonfly

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Hey Trekson, :)

I don't think that Jesus even knew that it would take a couple of thousand years

That's because in eternity, it's always now.


Lukewarmness is due to idolatry and God does not tolerate double-mindedness or half-heartedness towards Himself.

Leviticus 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomits out her inhabitants.
 

whitestone

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My Lord Jesus has made me Hot for Him :eek:
He has clothed me with His Clean Pure White Self
He has annointed me with His Holy Spirit and opened my eyes
He has made me rich in Gold tried by Fire in my Faith
He has knocked and I have opened my door wide and received Him at His Coming
He has overcome in me, and I am overcome by Christ in me
He has given to me to sit with Him in His Throne
He has Lifted me up into His Place in Heaven
I sit with Him I sup with Him in His Kingdom
Blessed is He who Comes in the Name of the Lord
Jesus
My Lord and my God
Whitestone
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Were we not warned about the falling away before the end? Why does Jesus say He comes as a thief in the night??? Why this allusion?

I have given this verse a lot of thought for a lot of years. I do not pretend to know exactly how the falling away works ..... but here are a couple of my personal thoughts ....

.... I think the literal verse says ... "fall away from the faith and betray and hate one another. "

Sounds like they are Christians who have turned liberal and hate the fundamental evangelical type .... do we not see that in modern day ??

Bottom line it does not say they have lost salvation .... but their faith has fallen away .... something like James said .... faith is dead ..... but never does it say salvation is lost.

One place in the revelation church letters Jesus says .... "I am about to spit you out of my mouth" .... He does not say ...... "I am about to spit you out of salvation "

I know I am splitting hairs .... but I think we must look at it that way .... otherwise nothing makes sense.

Could also be talking about the numerous Christians who attend church .... nice folks .... but have never really pledged allegiance to Christ.

I have a very close friend .... he was glad to hear I started attending church back in the 1980's ... in a quiet moment I asked him when he became a christian

.... my friend abruptly changed the subject by his reply .... he said .... "I am on the parking lot committee for our church .... and my wife is into all the religious stuff .... "

I think these folks will be caught with their pants down when the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

Bottom line .... I think we have (assured) salvation .... even when we have little faith ... ( or dead faith ) (or our faith has fallen away) .... and do everything wrong ...

As Christians our Sins are forgiven , the small ones and the big ones ..... the telling comes at reward time in heaven .... some lots .... some none ..... but they are all in heaven ..... because they are all saved ..... from hell of course.

Isn't that what salvation is ??

Those are my thoughts on those difficult passages. I could be wrong.

Arnie
 

Episkopos

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I have given this verse a lot of thought for a lot of years. I do not pretend to know exactly how the falling away works ..... but here are a couple of my personal thoughts ....

.... I think the literal verse says ... "fall away from the faith and betray and hate one another. "

Sounds like they are Christians who have turned liberal and hate the fundamental evangelical type .... do we not see that in modern day ??

Bottom line it does not say they have lost salvation .... but their faith has fallen away .... something like James said .... faith is dead ..... but never does it say salvation is lost.

One place in the revelation church letters Jesus says .... "I am about to spit you out of my mouth" .... He does not say ...... "I am about to spit you out of salvation "

I know I am splitting hairs .... but I think we must look at it that way .... otherwise nothing makes sense.

Could also be talking about the numerous Christians who attend church .... nice folks .... but have never really pledged allegiance to Christ.

I have a very close friend .... he was glad to hear I started attending church back in the 1980's ... in a quiet moment I asked him when he became a christian

.... my friend abruptly changed the subject by his reply .... he said .... "I am on the parking lot committee for our church .... and my wife is into all the religious stuff .... "

I think these folks will be caught with their pants down when the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

Bottom line .... I think we have (assured) salvation .... even when we have little faith ... ( or dead faith ) (or our faith has fallen away) .... and do everything wrong ...

As Christians our Sins are forgiven , the small ones and the big ones ..... the telling comes at reward time in heaven .... some lots .... some none ..... but they are all in heaven ..... because they are all saved ..... from hell of course.

Isn't that what salvation is ??

Those are my thoughts on those difficult passages. I could be wrong.

Arnie

People reap what they sow...being saved is not always the best thing for us. A person who is burned all over their body....disfigured by acid...the loss of all 4 limbs...etc.

Those who claim a salvation without an obedience to the commandments of God are in for a rude awakening.

Before the end those who are seen as the leaders in the church today will be dishonoured by all and God Himself will place His chosen leaders in order to restore the truth to the gospel of the kingdom...then the end will come.
 

Axehead

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The Word for the Healing of the Body today is:

Come to the Lord Jesus with your whole heart and do not be joined to anything else in your heart but Him.

Axehead
 
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Episkopos

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The Word for the Healing of the Body today is:

Come to the Lord Jesus with your whole heart and do not be joined to anything else in your heart but Him.

Axehead

He can make even an axe head to float!!! :)
 

Prentis

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Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Seems the modern Church has mistaken things above with things of our own imaginations! ;)

Paul was not reinforcing the idea that we must claim something we see God could give us and then really believe it and proudly defend that we do indeed have this (without having waited on the Lord and truly received it) ! Rather Paul was encouraging us to humble ourselves and seek the things of God until we truly receive them from heaven with power.