Lord is the Avenger

[MatthewG]

“for this is the will of God — your sanctification; that ye abstain from the whoredom, that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour, not in the affection of desire, as also the nations that were not knowing God, that no one go beyond and defraud in the matter his brother, because an avenger [is] the Lord of all these, as also we spake before to you and testified, for God did not call us on uncleanness, but in sanctification; he, therefore, who is despising — doth not despise man, but God, who also did give His Holy Spirit to us.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:3-8‬ ‭YLT98


That word for Avenger means from the Greek word ekdikos - from G1537 and G1349 - carrying justice out, that is a punisher.


This means depending on a person does as it mentioned in verse 4 that everyone in Thessalonians where told that they should know how to possess his vessel In sanctification and honor.


Paul makes it clear they should know how to, possess their own vessel in sanctification and honor. I believe this deals with individual responsibility to maintain the vessel that God had gave to you.


In verse 5: Paul goes on further into explaining how not to use their vessels, as those who are untrained and do not understand. Who use their own body by the lust of concupiscence (impure desire/lust/irregular or violent desire) as the Gentiles has walked not knowing God. (Reminded of the flood here)


In verse 6: Paul goes on to remind them that let no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter.


This could be pertaining to any matter: to remind those to stay connected in the truth, to remember what has been said about God and how we are to listen and follow Christ.


So no man go beyond and defraud his brother, in any matter: because the Lord is the avenger (carrier out of justice) of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. All of Thessalonians and others have heard about how the Lord is the Avenger and it was forwarded by the apostles and also testified of him being an Avenger.


In verse 7: For God has not called us to uncleanness (impurity (the quality) impurity of motive - physically or morally, but unto Holiness (hageeasmos- properly purification (the state); purity; sanctification).


You can see here Paul makes it clear that God had not called anyone to have a quality of physical or moral of acting out in evil, no matter the degree.


God called them into holiness, which introduces a new state of being, which comes by and through the new spiritual being of the person having been born again, and now the state of their life is changed and renewed by the grace of God, which is a constant effort between Us and to keep relationships with our Father. Abiding in Christ, in prayer and supplication.


In verse 8: Paul writes and says He therefore that despises (sets aside, violate, swerve from, reject), despises not man, but God, who has given unto us his Holy Spirit.


This concludes this topic, if you would to share from anything you read here please feel free to share,


In Christ,

Matthew Gallagher

 

[VictoryinJesus]

“that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor,

I’ve never read the version that has “a wife” in place of the vessel possessed in holiness and honor? What vessel is the word speaking of there then? The weaker?
Romans 9:23; τόσκεῦος is used of a woman, as the vessel of her husband, 1 Thessalonians 4:4 (see κτάομαι; (others take it here (as in 2 Corinthians 4:7 below) of the body)); the female sex, as being weaker than the male, is likened to a σκεῦος ἀσθενεστερον, in order to commend to husbands the obligations of kindness toward their wives (for the weaker the vessels, the greater must be the care lest they be broken),

Which are you speaking of as the vessel God gave to be possessed here

Paul makes it clear they should know how to, possess their own vessel in sanctification and honor. I believe this deals with individual responsibility to maintain the vessel that God had gave to you.

Or in the following are you meaning also that vessel which is being spoken of as “explained how to use there vessels, not as those untrained” … is it “wives” or the flesh body which I’ve always heard as the vessel one should know how to possess?

In verse 5: Paul goes on further into explaining how not to use their vessels, as those who are untrained and do not understand. Who use their own body by the lust of concupiscence (impure desire/lust/irregular or violent desire) as the Gentiles has walked not knowing God. (Reminded of the flood here)

that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we solemnly forewarned you. For God has not called us for uncleanness, but in holiness.

Mark 12:19-23 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. [20] Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed. [21] And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise. [22] And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also. [23] In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.

?

 

[MatthewG]

Hello victory,

Will you be straight forward with your question?

I noticed I did not comment on the notion of “wife” because I had missed it. What is it you wonder about that ? I would wonder also what the young’s literal translation would say for the verse.

Did my overall message I try to share make sense to you?

 

[MatthewG]

Here is the translation I used when writing it,


“for this is the will of God — your sanctification; that ye abstain from the whoredom, that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour, not in the affection of desire, as also the nations that were not knowing God, that no one go beyond and defraud in the matter his brother, because an avenger [is] the Lord of all these, as also we spake before to you and testified, for God did not call us on uncleanness, but in sanctification; he, therefore, who is despising — doth not despise man, but God, who also did give His Holy Spirit to us.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:3-8‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hello victory,

Will you be straight forward with your question?

I noticed I did not comment on the notion of “wife” because I had missed it. What is it you wonder about that ? I would wonder also what the young’s literal translation would say for the verse.

Did my overall message I try to share make sense to you?

This is as straightforward as I know how to be. Was wife only an mistake and instead it is vessel? ‘that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God; that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in this matter,

 

[VictoryinJesus]

that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour,

see it is not there but was in the OP? I was asking if it was a typo because I don’t know and it was interesting.

 

[MatthewG]

I fixed it now. Thank you for making mention of it. I do not know why the word wife is there. I normally try to use the young’s literal translation for most of studying.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I fixed it now. Thank you for making mention of it. I do not know why the word wife is there. I normally try to use the young’s literal translation for most of studying.

I also wondered how wife got there. But it did make me think of a vessel of God and how God is able to possess His vessel for honor and sanctification.
2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[MatthewG]

I don’t know. How wife got there, if you would like to do a Bible translation research on why, you could probably do so with looking up revised standard version of the Bible.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I don’t know. How wife got there, if you would like to do a Bible translation research on why, you could probably do so with looking up revised standard version of the Bible.

To me it seems important. Especially in regards to ‘vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, says the Lord. Hebrews 10:30 what is belongs to …is belongs to the same as to possess a thing for it belongs unto you; as in within your possession? As in Vengeance belongs unto the Lord.

In the footnotes of the young’s translation
1 Thessalonians 4:4 Or learn to live with your own wife; or learn to acquire a wife …

which seems to repeat what you had originally had in regards to a wife, or to possess a vessel; that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God; that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in this matter

2 Timothy 2:21-22 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. [22] Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

The reason it matters to me in regard to vengeance and the possible reference to wife that showed up there…it is not because of any wife but how does it relate or what does it have to say about the body of Christ and vengeance?

 

[MatthewG]

Click this

1 Thessalonians 4:4 each of you must know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,

Scroll down till you see body.

 

[Waiting on him]

Here is the translation I used when writing it,


“for this is the will of God — your sanctification; that ye abstain from the whoredom, that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour, not in the affection of desire, as also the nations that were not knowing God, that no one go beyond and defraud in the matter his brother, because an avenger [is] the Lord of all these, as also we spake before to you and testified, for God did not call us on uncleanness, but in sanctification; he, therefore, who is despising — doth not despise man, but God, who also did give His Holy Spirit to us.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:3-8‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

This is referring to having temperance, it has nothing to do with sexual lusts.

 

[MatthewG]

It does say sexual immorality on Bible hub. However it could be wrong, if you have an actual book concordance. The word for whoredom is - porneia, @Waiting on him.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For it is God's will that you should be holy: You must abstain from sexual immorality;

 

[Waiting on him]

It does say sexual immorality on Bible hub. However it could be wrong, if you have an actual book concordance. The word for whoredom is - porneia, @Waiting on him.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For it is God's will that you should be holy: You must abstain from sexual immorality;

Sexual immorality between a man and his wife would be a wonderful topic.

 

[Waiting on him]

I don’t believe I’ve seen anything on here about that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

“for this is the will of God — your sanctification; that ye abstain from the whoredom, that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour, not in the affection of desire, as also the nations that were not knowing God, that no one go beyond and defraud in the matter his brother, because an avenger [is] the Lord of all these, as also we spake before to you and testified, for God did not call us on uncleanness, but in sanctification; he, therefore, who is despising — doth not despise man, but God, who also did give His Holy Spirit to us.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:3-8‬ ‭YLT98

To me, the passage largely refers to fidelity in marriage. "Possessing his own vessel" refers to being faithful to your spouse. God is angry and vengeful if we burn our wife to commit adultery with another, much as happened to King David when he sinned with Bathsheba, another man's wife. David was forgiven, but paid a serious penalty in his life.

So love has a price if we don't keep to it, in this case, within marriage. But the principle can be expanded to apply to areas outside of marriage. We are to love one another. When we burn and hurt one another, we bring God's vengeance upon us, depending upon how serious the infraction.

I used to tell my kids, When you make mistakes--and you will--try not to make the big ones. They have more serious consequences.

I would add to that. Keep a subservient heart towards God, so that He can correct us when we need correcting. There's nothing more dangerous than a callous heart that becomes so emotional that it is no longer open to correction. We should beware of the "root of bitterness" that can become lodged in our heart, preventing us from repenting.

 

[quietthinker]

Lord is the Avenger
Using the same tools as the enemy has in it the same self defeating principles.
God Avenges by loving....something that man could never invent let alone enter his mind.

 

[michaelvpardo]

“for this is the will of God — your sanctification; that ye abstain from the whoredom, that each of you know his own vessel to possess in sanctification and honour, not in the affection of desire, as also the nations that were not knowing God, that no one go beyond and defraud in the matter his brother, because an avenger [is] the Lord of all these, as also we spake before to you and testified, for God did not call us on uncleanness, but in sanctification; he, therefore, who is despising — doth not despise man, but God, who also did give His Holy Spirit to us.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:3-8‬ ‭YLT98


That word for Avenger means from the Greek word ekdikos - from G1537 and G1349 - carrying justice out, that is a punisher.


This means depending on a person does as it mentioned in verse 4 that everyone in Thessalonians where told that they should know how to possess his vessel In sanctification and honor.


Paul makes it clear they should know how to, possess their own vessel in sanctification and honor. I believe this deals with individual responsibility to maintain the vessel that God had gave to you.


In verse 5: Paul goes on further into explaining how not to use their vessels, as those who are untrained and do not understand. Who use their own body by the lust of concupiscence (impure desire/lust/irregular or violent desire) as the Gentiles has walked not knowing God. (Reminded of the flood here)


In verse 6: Paul goes on to remind them that let no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter.


This could be pertaining to any matter: to remind those to stay connected in the truth, to remember what has been said about God and how we are to listen and follow Christ.


So no man go beyond and defraud his brother, in any matter: because the Lord is the avenger (carrier out of justice) of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified. All of Thessalonians and others have heard about how the Lord is the Avenger and it was forwarded by the apostles and also testified of him being an Avenger.


In verse 7: For God has not called us to uncleanness (impurity (the quality) impurity of motive - physically or morally, but unto Holiness (hageeasmos- properly purification (the state); purity; sanctification).


You can see here Paul makes it clear that God had not called anyone to have a quality of physical or moral of acting out in evil, no matter the degree.


God called them into holiness, which introduces a new state of being, which comes by and through the new spiritual being of the person having been born again, and now the state of their life is changed and renewed by the grace of God, which is a constant effort between Us and to keep relationships with our Father. Abiding in Christ, in prayer and supplication.


In verse 8: Paul writes and says He therefore that despises (sets aside, violate, swerve from, reject), despises not man, but God, who has given unto us his Holy Spirit.


This concludes this topic, if you would to share from anything you read here please feel free to share,


In Christ,

Matthew Gallagher

The chapter is obviously about maintaining personal purity, but verses 3 through 8 specifically address sexual immorality and adultery.

The Thessalonians were a Gentile church and the gentiles were not typically "under" the law of Moses and would only have familiarity if they'd sat under Jewish prostelitizers or were read the law by the disciples who went out evangelizing with the gospel. However, Paul did not preach the law but God's grace. He contrasts the law with grace in a few Epistles, but the gospel is not about keeping the law.

At the same time, there were Jewish believers in Christ teaching that circumcision and observance of the law of Moses was required by God for salvation. (Some things never change). In Acts we find a letter from the believing council of Jerusalem to some of these Gentile congregations addressing this issue. The substance of the letter, the instructions of the council of Jerusalem was very simple:
. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Acts 15:28-29

This letter addressed the kind of environment that the Gentile churches existed in. The pagan nations consumed food offered to their gods and ritual sex.
Sexual sin is a big deal to God and He calls it idolatry.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. Colossians 3:5

 

[farouk]

To me it seems important. Especially in regards to ‘vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, says the Lord. Hebrews 10:30 what is belongs to …is belongs to the same as to possess a thing for it belongs unto you; as in within your possession? As in Vengeance belongs unto the Lord.

In the footnotes of the young’s translation
1 Thessalonians 4:4 Or learn to live with your own wife; or learn to acquire a wife …

which seems to repeat what you had originally had in regards to a wife, or to possess a vessel; that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor, not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God; that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in this matter

2 Timothy 2:21-22 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. [22] Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

The reason it matters to me in regard to vengeance and the possible reference to wife that showed up there…it is not because of any wife but how does it relate or what does it have to say about the body of Christ and vengeance?

@VictoryinJesus Interesting linkage there with 1 Thess. 4.4.

So do you think that the writers there are talking about the same thing?

I know you said you used to be a novelist.