LORD or Lord? KING or King?

[michaelvpardo]

Shalom, Michael, and Happy Independence Day!



Indeed. Let's start with the semantics:


Thus, by definition, when I said "'inferior' to" I was meaning "subordinate to." I was NOT implying that He was of inferior quality or is of a lower standard in some way! After all, He is the very REPRESENTATIVE (MESSIAH) of God Himself! God has committed all judgment into His hands, and He will rule the world LITERALLY! And, He IS the Son of God; that is, God's own Son!

However, He IS God's own SON! He is the JUNIOR to His SENIOR! Even as He rules and puts all of His enemies under His feet (during the coming Millennium), He anticipates the day when He can turn the Kingdom over to His Father so that His Father may be "all in all."
1 Corinthians 15:20-28

The "pearly gates," the "streets of gold," the "twelve foundations," etc. all are to be found in the New Jerusalem, not in some otherworldly place called "Heaven!" It's a TANGIBLE, SOLID, REAL place called "Yerushalayim haChadashah" that will take the place of Old Jerusalem, the Land of Isra'el, the Middle East, and up to three time zones of this planet!

That is why in its vicinity there will be "no more sea!" When the city descends and lands upon the New Earth, its weight will raise the lands all around it, forcing the water to run downhill and away from the city!

Sorry I didn't respond promptly, but I think that we're pretty much on the same page. The problem that I have in general with the concept of God as three distinct persons (in the hierarchy revealed in scripture) is that people who are somewhat biblically informed, though not particularly spiritual or of a profound understanding, will make the suggestion that God the Father has one agenda, and that God the Son has some other agenda in opposition to Him (with the Holy Spirit somehow connecting the two or lost in the mix). That is, when my mind was entirely carnal, and my spirit dead in trespasses and sin, I was unable to see the God of the Old Testament as being a God of grace (this may have also had something to do with my early religious training), but having been made alive by His Spirit, I can now see the grace manifested by God to the people of His covenant as well as the common grace extended to those outside whose evil works He suffered until the appointed time of their judgment. E.g.: Though God promised an inheritance in the land to Abraham and his descendants, He also made it clear that the iniquity of those people in the land was not yet complete and that their judgment would come at an appointed time. We find a similar statement with regard to the 4 kingdoms described in chapter 8 of the book of Daniel, speaking of the time of the indignation which will come with the "fullness" of the "transgressors".
Many "believers" are unable to reconcile the concept of God being love with the concept of God being Just, and express the thought with a question such as "How can a god of love cast people into hell?"
Some of these reconcile love with judgment by suggesting that God the Father is condemning man while Jesus is standing as our intercessor pleading with God on our behalf. While Jesus is indeed our intercessor, scripture tells us that He only does the will of the Father, so while interceding on our behalf He is still doing that which pleases the Father. There is no division in the will of God, even if He is expressed to us in three persons. I'm confident that you understand these things, but I've encountered more than a few professing Christians who don't have a clue and see God as behaviorally dichotomous. Consequently I'm concerned about focusing on the differences between the persons of the Godhead rather than their unity. I prefer to say "our God is One, Father, Spirit, and Son" (not ordered as an expression of hierarchy but as a mnemonic) rather than use the term trinity (in the course of casual conversation) to keep a difficult concept simple without promoting the idea that the Godhead is somehow divided in His purposes.
I urge caution in these areas because statements relating a separation in the Godhead are fodder for the cults (as they, being founded in carnal thought and unspiritual in nature, can never arrive at sound conclusions in the matters requiring spiritual discernment.)

 

[Madad21]

Shalom, Jack and Madad21.

Two sayings come to mind:

First, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still," and
second, "If you don't want to do something, one excuse is as good as another."

Oh, and I just thought of another one:

Albert Einstein: "If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts. .... Don't confuse me with facts, my mind's already made up!"

This has nothing to do with anything I said whatsoever.

I trust the translation I read and the Spirit that guides me through, One who is far greater then your Hebrew transcript, I dont need to pull it all apart in the original Aramaic to know whats being taught.
Anybody around the world who has come to Christ is given a Bible the inspired Word of God regardless of your charge against its validity, they read the same accounts and are given the same impression and insight through the same Spirit. Theses accounts are made plain to them by that Spirit and all are in agreement.

It just seems to me that your faith is not in the Word of God Retro but in the transcript you read,

It isnt my fault that these concepts are made plain to those who trust in the wisdom of the Spirit and live by faith, relying not on their on flawed rational but on the reasoning given them like children being taught by a loving Father, we hang off every Word and nothing is hidden from us.

The Bible reads the way it does because the Spirit that inspires it is as strong and powerful today as the day it was first written down, and contemporary translation and understanding is no challenge to it, but still inspired still empowered.

Do you think that by your translation that you are privy to the secrets of God above all others who relay not on their own wisdom but on what the Spirit tells them. Of course not but instead you are in danger of having all these things hidden from you because of it.

This is why I said that I can not go around in circles with you, because its pointless, what would we achieve? I have watched everyone else do it with you. They show you basic Kingdom knowledge and you go straight to your translations every-time.

What more can I say?

If you wish to take it as cheap victory then far be it from me to hold you back, by all means enjoy.

 

[RANDOR]

The bible............God's words......are for children to understand.............for salvation...........Hmmmmmmmm kinda like computers...
the 5 year olds know more about them than us old fogies.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Michael.

Sorry I didn't respond promptly, but I think that we're pretty much on the same page. The problem that I have in general with the concept of God as three distinct persons (in the hierarchy revealed in scripture) is that people who are somewhat biblically informed, though not particularly spiritual or of a profound understanding, will make the suggestion that God the Father has one agenda, and that God the Son has some other agenda in opposition to Him (with the Holy Spirit somehow connecting the two or lost in the mix). That is, when my mind was entirely carnal, and my spirit dead in trespasses and sin, I was unable to see the God of the Old Testament as being a God of grace (this may have also had something to do with my early religious training), but having been made alive by His Spirit, I can now see the grace manifested by God to the people of His covenant as well as the common grace extended to those outside whose evil works He suffered until the appointed time of their judgment. E.g.: Though God promised an inheritance in the land to Abraham and his descendants, He also made it clear that the iniquity of those people in the land was not yet complete and that their judgment would come at an appointed time. We find a similar statement with regard to the 4 kingdoms described in chapter 8 of the book of Daniel, speaking of the time of the indignation which will come with the "fullness" of the "transgressors".
Many "believers" are unable to reconcile the concept of God being love with the concept of God being Just, and express the thought with a question such as "How can a god of love cast people into hell?"
Some of these reconcile love with judgment by suggesting that God the Father is condemning man while Jesus is standing as our intercessor pleading with God on our behalf. While Jesus is indeed our intercessor, scripture tells us that He only does the will of the Father, so while interceding on our behalf He is still doing that which pleases the Father. There is no division in the will of God, even if He is expressed to us in three persons. I'm confident that you understand these things, but I've encountered more than a few professing Christians who don't have a clue and see God as behaviorally dichotomous. Consequently I'm concerned about focusing on the differences between the persons of the Godhead rather than their unity. I prefer to say "our God is One, Father, Spirit, and Son" (not ordered as an expression of hierarchy but as a mnemonic) rather than use the term trinity (in the course of casual conversation) to keep a difficult concept simple without promoting the idea that the Godhead is somehow divided in His purposes.
I urge caution in these areas because statements relating a separation in the Godhead are fodder for the cults (as they, being founded in carnal thought and unspiritual in nature, can never arrive at sound conclusions in the matters requiring spiritual discernment.)

I've also been very busy lately, and have had to choose to whom I have the time to respond. Therefore, I also apologize for not getting back to you sooner.

Yes, we're very much on the same page! That is PRECISELY as I see it; however, I still feel that it is important NOT to forget that the "Tri-Unity" still consists of three (or two?) separate Persons. This is EXTREMELY important in the matters of worship! It's one thing to worship God, but it's quite another matter to worship the Son of God as God! In these days, almost EVERYONE who claims to be a Christian worships the Son of God as God to the NEGLECT of the Father! And yet, Yeshua` said that we were to pray to the Father, NOT to Himself! While we may make our petitions "in the NAME of Yeshua`," that is, "on the AUTHORITY of Yeshua`," or "in the STEAD of Yeshua`," or "on BEHALF of Yeshua`"; He NEVER said we were to pray to Himself instead of His Father! And, praying "in the NAME of Yeshua`" does NOT mean to pray using Yeshua`s NAME (whom many call "Jesus") as the One to whom we are speaking!

Matthew 6:6-15
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
KJV

Mark 11:22-26
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
KJV

Luke 11:1-4
11 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
KJV

John 17:5-26
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV

Thus, Yeshua` HIMSELF always put a separation between Himself and His Father, even while saying that He was ONE with His Father! Frankly, He said that those whom God had given Him would also be ONE with Him and the Father and HE is ONE with His Father! Does that make us part of the "Trinity" or "Tri-Unity?" The English and Greek languages isolate us from the Hebrew background of what Yeshua` was talking about, but the Hebrew word "echad" meaning "one" is also the word that is used for a man and woman becoming "ONE flesh!"

I don't think I have the ability to say it any better.

 

[shturt678s]

Thank you folks for caring!

RANDOR and I are also on the same page regarding the precious "Lord's Prayer," "Hallowed be thy name." His name is that by which He makes Himself known to us, His revelation, however the Godman Christ is the heart of this name. In fact if I recall Madad is also on the same page with us.

Old Jack

btw for those not on the 'same' page, we agape you the 'same.'

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Jack.

Thank you folks for caring!

RANDOR and I are also on the same page regarding the precious "Lord's Prayer," "Hallowed be thy name." His name is that by which He makes Himself known to us, His revelation, however the Godman Christ is the heart of this name. In fact if I recall Madad is also on the same page with us.

Old Jack

btw for those not on the 'same' page, we agape you the 'same.'

The "Lord's Prayer" was a TEACHING tool. It was an EXAMPLE of how to pray! It was NOT some words that one must pray EXACTLY! To the contrary, Yeshua` was giving ADViCE as to how to talk to our Father!

His "Name" is His AUTHORITY to be the One Person who deserves our praise and worship! Whether translated from the Hebrew word "Shem" or the Greek word "Nomos," "Name" is MUCH MORE than just an appellation! Furthermore, "Godman" is a theological INVENTION of yours that has no place in the Scriptures!

"Christ" DOES appear in the Scriptures as the Greek translation ("Christos") of the Hebrew word "Mashiach" which is also transliterated through the Greek into English as "Messiah." It would be a good idea for you to fully understand the background of the word "Mashiach," before making uninformed assumptions about the "name" (actually, the "title!")