Love?

[Axehead]

In respect to loving God yes love is obedience. Jesus told us what one needs to do to love his or her neighbor. Love is doing for one another.

Even Jesus displayed His love for His Father through obedience.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

John 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

 

[Born_Again]

1 John 3:18
My little children, don't just talk about love as an idea or a theory. Make it your true way of life, and live in the pattern of gracious love.

 

[justaname]

1 John 3:18
My little children, don't just talk about love as an idea or a theory. Make it your true way of life, and live in the pattern of gracious love.

This is an interesting translation...another different maybe more literal one is as follows.

18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

These coincide with this passage...James 2:16

​So here we have a different facet of love...love as an action. I do not believe we have begun to see even the beginnings of what love is. Love is far more complex than anything presented thus far.

Love is the ideal. Love is the highest expression within the human experience. Love is more than words or concepts but action. Love is a determined act of the will to seek the highest good for others in its purest form, agape.

​Remember as my signature reflects love is the command we are to obey. We are to live out an unnatural love that extends even to our enemies. SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? How do we do that? What is love?

 

[Born_Again]

This is an interesting translation...another different maybe more literal one is as follows.

18 Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.

These coincide with this passage...James 2:16

​So here we have a different facet of love...love as an action. I do not believe we have begun to see even the beginnings of what love is. Love is far more complex than anything presented thus far.

Love is the ideal. Love is the highest expression within the human experience. Love is more than words or concepts but action. Love is a determined act of the will to seek the highest good for others in its purest form, agape.

​Remember as my signature reflects love is the command we are to obey. We are to live out an unnatural love that extends even to our enemies. SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? How do we do that? What is love?

I agree. Even the great love we feel through Christ only scratches the surface of what Love is. It truly is far more complex than anything presented...... I cant recall what translation that verse came from. It was in a daily scripture I get in my email.... Some days it's KJV, others it's NIV and that one may be from the NLT... I personally am not a fan of the NLT........

 

[justaname]

I agree. Even the great love we feel through Christ only scratches the surface of what Love is. It truly is far more complex than anything presented...... I cant recall what translation that verse came from. It was in a daily scripture I get in my email.... Some days it's KJV, others it's NIV and that one may be from the NLT... I personally am not a fan of the NLT........

Once I was reflecting on the relationship between the Father and the Son. I thought of the horrific pain of separation Jesus endured because of our sin weighing on Him, and how my sin got between Him and the Father. I wept. I can not come to comprehend the depth of the love the Father has for the Son translating to the depth of love God has for us. How and why does He love us?

Love is a strange thing perhaps we will never understand.

 

[Born_Again]

Once I was reflecting on the relationship between the Father and the Son. I thought of the horrific pain of separation Jesus endured because of our sin weighing on Him, and how my sin got between Him and the Father. I wept. I can not come to comprehend the depth of the love the Father has for the Son translating to the depth of love God has for us. How and why does He love us?

Love is a strange thing perhaps we will never understand.

It really is a love that passes beyond understanding..... And too often we take it for granted. I have done something similar, reflected on what He truly did for us, and it just breaks my heart how we forget the sacrifice that was made for us. We can say we have love for mankind but could we ever really feel that magnitude of love... Pure selflessness? We tend to get caught in the "what about me" trap. He continuously loves us and we kick dirt in His face. But He still reaches out for us in our best and worst moments. You'll be hard pressed to find an earthly man who would do the same. We have breaking points towards others. But He cant be broken. His love cant be broken. Just incredible.

 

[Abeliever]

I'm going to answer by saying that love in this context means actions, rather than feelings. We usually think of love as the warm cozy feeling that makes us feel good and that all is well. And from a human pov that is indeed love. But with God love is actions. Paul describes it great in 1 Corinthians. Jesus also said that "He who loves Me is he who obeys My Father's commands". The problem nowadays is that too many Christians think love is only the feeling. Sure they love the Lord, but don't ask them to do something they don't want to do to prove it.

This will become a problem for many Christians after death. We read in Colossians 3: 23 - 25 "23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism."

Most people gloss over verse 25 and I've never heard a preacher give a sermon on it. But God has been throwing this fact at me for several years. And I know He wants me to share it with anyone who will listen.

Yes, we will be given a reward for obeying God, and everyone loves that. BUT we will also receive some sort of punishment for a failure to obey God. When I was younger I was just as guilty of this as the next Christian. All I heard from older Christians was don't fret over your sins. No one is perfect and all is forgiven because you accepted Jesus. This is true, up to a point. We must grow as Christians. We must constantly be working on ourselves to eliminate every sin we have. And quite frankly Jesus also said, "Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect". So Jesus expects us to always be striving towards this goal. If we refuse to try, it will never happen, and after we leave Earth we will get a harsh pay back for every sin we refused to try and quit doing.

And not sinning is how we prove we love God.

 

[FHII]

Yes, we will be given a reward for obeying God, and everyone loves that. BUT we will also receive some sort of punishment for a failure to obey God. When I was younger I was just as guilty of this as the next Christian. All I heard from older Christians was don't fret over your sins. No one is perfect and all is forgiven because you accepted Jesus. This is true, up to a point. We must grow as Christians. We must constantly be working on ourselves to eliminate every sin we have. And quite frankly Jesus also said, "Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect". So Jesus expects us to always be striving towards this goal. If we refuse to try, it will never happen, and after we leave Earth we will get a harsh pay back for every sin we refused to try and quit doing.

And not sinning is how we prove we love God.

Problem is, Abeliever, that it isn't going to be done in the flesh. If a Christian says, "I don't sin", there's only one way I can actually believe him -- because there is only one way he can actually be telling the truth. That is through grace. I can believe someone if they say, "I don't sin, because grace has been given to me through faith." Now, the earthly evidence will call them a liar, because even with grace, all flesh sins.

Paul spoke often of an inward and an outward man. Even he said his outward man sinned! He also said it wasn't him that was doing it, but the sin that dwelt in him.

I am not glossing over Col 3:25, but rather looking at it in respect to the rest of the Bible, especially Paul's teachings. He actually was into a moral code, and preached morals in the flesh. However, he also was very direct in preaching that all flesh sins and that grace covers all sins of the flesh. John agrees with him when he says, "My little children, sin not, but if ye do sin, we have an advocate..."

What I'd like you to do is compare Col 3:25 to Romans 5:20 which notes that where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. Now before you respond, realize we can go tit-for-tat on verses about grace covering sin vs. not sinning to achieve obedience. My friend, you are NOT going to bring up a verse I haven't read before. I doubt I will bring up one you haven't heard either.

So here is my conclusion. We can do one of two things: 1. We can try to eliminate sin entirely from our lives through our own efforts. In doing so, we will become more "moral" beings, please our community and become better people in the flesh. As a result, we may even prosper financially and get along better with not only the brethren, but the community as well. I like that idea! However, we will still be sinners and still fall short in God's eyes and (I hate to say it) go to hell and await the White Throne Judgment, and then be cast into the lake of fire. Or 2. We can simply rely on grace through faith. We must firgure out what faith is... But it'll save us.

I pick the second option. I don't try to sin (I'm so good at it, I don't have to!) but then again I don't try not to sin either. I don't give any place to it.... I don't pay it any attention. If I do (and I often do) it's only because I want to get along with others. It's not because I want to get closer to God. I can only do that spiritually. My flesh is under my inward man's subjection, which means I make it go to Church, give to the Church and help the brethren as much as I can.

But abstaining from sin.... I've moved beyond that. It's such a petty battle that yields little results and God isn't interested in those victories or defeats anyway.

 

[Abeliever]

FHII,

You misunderstand. I didn't mean anyone can ever say I never sin. (or I don't sin) I said it's a goal we must strive towards all our lives. To give up on trying to live by God's commandments is wrong. It's not a petty battle and God cares very much about it. If you know the Bible as well as you said, you have read the verses where God says this yourself. But you didn't see it yet. (of course it would help if preachers gave sermons on this) Maybe God is working on something else with you. That's quite possible. Keep reading the Bible. Someday God will open your eyes to this too. Just as He has done with me.

 

[justaname]

FHII,

You misunderstand. I didn't mean anyone can ever say I never sin. (or I don't sin) I said it's a goal we must strive towards all our lives. To give up on trying to live by God's commandments is wrong. It's not a petty battle and God cares very much about it. If you know the Bible as well as you said, you have read the verses where God says this yourself. But you didn't see it yet. (of course it would help if preachers gave sermons on this) Maybe God is working on something else with you. That's quite possible. Keep reading the Bible. Someday God will open your eyes to this too. Just as He has done with me.

To sin is to be unloving... :mellow:

 

[justaname]

Love is Spirit...

When it enters your life everything changes. You do not see things as you once did, you hear a different nuance in other's speaking, you feel as if you were never alive before it came. You give up all you had to experience it more fully and completely. You desire to be perfected by it. It deafens you with it's cry of compassion; it melts you in it's embrace. It envelopes you with a grip that can not be broken, yet it is so gentle you barely know it is holding you at all. With a glance it will bring you to your knees, with a word it will cause your eyes to well up with emotion, with a touch it will set your soul on fire.

Love is power.

 

[Born_Again]

Love is Spirit...

When it enters your life everything changes. You do not see things as you once did, you hear a different nuance in other's speaking, you feel as if you were never alive before it came. You give up all you had to experience it more fully and completely. You desire to be perfected by it. It deafens you with it's cry of compassion; it melts you in it's embrace. It envelopes you with a grip that can not be broken, yet it is so gentle you barely know it is holding you at all. With a glance it will bring you to your knees, with a word it will cause your eyes to well up with emotion, with a touch it will set your soul on fire.

Love is power.

Well said... I would have to say that is pretty accurate!!!

 

[FHII]

FHII,

You misunderstand. I didn't mean anyone can ever say I never sin. (or I don't sin) I said it's a goal we must strive towards all our lives. To give up on trying to live by God's commandments is wrong. It's not a petty battle and God cares very much about it. If you know the Bible as well as you said, you have read the verses where God says this yourself. But you didn't see it yet. (of course it would help if preachers gave sermons on this) Maybe God is working on something else with you. That's quite possible. Keep reading the Bible. Someday God will open your eyes to this too. Just as He has done with me.

Abeliever, I understand perfectly what you said, and my response still stands. About the only thing you can say I didn't do was get my point across to you. My point is that it is pointless to try to do something that we ourselves cannot achieve. ESPECIALLY when there is a 100% efficient way of doing it: that is grace through faith.

You want to live by God's commandment? So do I! Now are we talking about the Law which was given to Moses or the Commandments Jesus gave? See, we are no longer subject to the Law of Moses, but we can live up to what Jesus said to do (and thus fulfill, if you love me keep my commandments). Now, what were his commandments? He gave a few: 1. Believe on him whom HE hath sent, 2. Come and learn of me, 3. Seek ye first the kingdom of God.... There are others but they all (by his own words) fall on 1. Love the Lord with all thy heart, soul and mind (WHICH IS FIRST) and 2. love others (in which he was specifically talking about the brethren. If you want to believe he meant "everyone", fine.... I'll talk about that some other time.... It's not important to my point right now).

Here's the thing about grace: 1. It's not an insurance policy which covers what you can't. 2. Its not the blood of bulls and goats which only covers past sins. 3. It works for ALL sins of the flesh! Past. Present. Future. THe ones you are guilty of. The ones you are not guilty of (and you are guilty of all of them if you break just one of the points of the law).

So no.... I don't think nor find evidence that it is important to "try" to keep the Law of Moses. If you are speaking of the Law of the INward man, I apologize, and agree. With that, I don't encourage anyone to sin. I think people should try to not sin, but it has nothing to do with your walk in God if you are covered by grace.

 

[sonofHilkiah]

Scripture tells us God is love...

Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

But what is love? This is not a question necessarily seeking to find out the correlation between God and love although responses can reflect that, yet what is love.

​If your response shows me examples of love great! But I will still chase the root...you have provided great examples but you still have not expressed what it is.

We do know there are varying degrees of love, some expressing intimacy such as between a husband and wife. Some forms of love express a strong emotional and relational bond like the love between sisters. Yet other forms of love may have different qualities such as having love for your enemy. We are even told to not love the world, yet we know we must love our neighbors as our selves. Love is more than just an emotion, it is a choice in every given situation.

Is there a difference between loving as a Christian and an unbeliever? Can one love without being a Christian? How does love act. What does love do? When is love perfected?

Don't feel you have to answer every question, these are presented to provoke thought and interest.

Be creative. Be academic. Be philosophical, physiological, psychological. Be loving. :wub:

The original command of God to the children of Israel is for Israel to love Israel. That is the original command. And when Christ came to teach God's Word to Israel Christ did not change the Law. The original command is for brethren to love brethren. As a matter of fact God commanded the children of Israel to not mingle with the nations (Goyim) nor to learn their ways. God never commanded the children of Israel to love anyone except a member of the twelve tribes and only them as you can see from the language in the text:

Leviticus 19:17-18 (KJV)
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother [member of the same tribe] in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour [member of one of the other eleven tribes], and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people [member of any tribe], but thou shalt love thy neighbour [member of one of the eleven tribes] as thyself: I am the LORD.

And based upon the way God situated the twelve tribes around the Tabernacle for a TIME the children of Israel obeyed. Until they mingled with the heathen nations and learned their ways.

Keep in mind that Christ did not change the Law, He established it!

Christians are also commanded to love their brethren, to give that which is Holy (God's love) to a holy people, to keep the family jewels in the family. God never commanded Israel nor the Church to love the world (those not brethren), as a matter of fact and Biblical truth, the command is to not love the world [unbelievers] nor things in the world:

1 John 2:15-17 (KJV)
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

He that doeth the will of God [in this respect] abideth for ever.

Amen.

 

[lforrest]

I think it is pretty clear by further teachings that we are to love even the outsider. 1 John 2:15 does not contradict this because verse 16 goes on to specify exactly what is in the world; no peoples are listed, only ideals.

Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV)

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[sonofHilkiah]

I think it is pretty clear by further teachings that we are to love even the outsider. 1 John 2:15 does not contradict this because verse 16 goes on to specify exactly what is in the world; no peoples are listed, only ideals.

Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV)

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Israel understood Jesus was teaching on Leviticus 19:18 and understood that Jesus was upholding that command and didn't change the Law. Israel understood what Jesus was saying about loving your enemy especially since there was still animosity between the remnants of the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom.

What you are doing is either interpreting the Hebrew Scripture with a Gentile mind-set, in which case you end up with a "replacement" theology, or you are teaching Jesus changed the Law of God.

Israel understands Sola Scriptura. By every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Do you believe this?

 

[lforrest]

As far as I know, I am a gentile believer grafted onto the branch. Jesus fulfilled the Law, and he gave us his own commandments. His commandments that are in agreement with the Law, which were given by the same Spirit.

For one who wishes to distance himself from the churches teachings you rely heavily on them to support your arguments.

 

[sonofHilkiah]

As far as I know, I am a gentile believer grafted onto the branch. Jesus fulfilled the Law, and he gave us his own commandments. His commandments that are in agreement with the Law, which were given by the same Spirit.

For one who wishes to distance himself from the churches teachings you rely heavily on them to support your arguments.

Yes, Christ fulfilled all the requirements of the Law, and Christ is in us and so God also sees us as fulfilling all the requirements of the Law. That is our justification. God declares us "NOT GUILTY!" of transgressing His Law because our substitution and our representative Jesus Christ did it for us and applied His atonement to our lives by the power of the Holy Spirit.

When one tries to interpret the Hebrew Scriptures with a Gentile mind-set one will end up in error. One will end up with a "replacement" theology and belief-system, exactly what is in the Church today.

 

[lforrest]

But the Hebrew scriptures are not the entirety of scripture are they?

 

[sonofHilkiah]

But the Hebrew scriptures are not the entirety of scripture are they?

No, not anymore. The New Testament is also written by Hebrews. Except Luke and Mark. The other 25 "books" are written by a "Jew."
If you want to understand the Scriptures you must read it with a Hebrew mind-set. If you read it like a Gentile you will end up in heresy, just as the Church is today.