Majority Text, Textus Receptus or Critical Text?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This can be a barn burner of a topic, so be sure that we will moderate it closely, but which manuscript family do you favor and why?

Let's try to avoid saying bad things about others, but you are welcome to list reasons why you distrust or choose one over the other.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A little clue to what you're talking about for those of us who are historically challenged might help.
 

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sure, I'll link to Wikipedia articles, but I'll provide the cliffnotes version...

Textus Receptus (TR) - It's a Latin phrase meaning "received text." It's a collection of Greek manuscripts (roughly 6) that was used in translating Luther's Bible, Tyndale's translation, and eventually the King James version of the Bible when it comes to the New Testament. It was incomplete, with some pieces of the text being back-translated from the Latin Vulgate when it was first compiled by Erasmus. It is of the Byzantine family (think Eastern Roman Empire origin) and falls later in date (IE: more recent). For the time when it was used, it was basically the best they had. We've since found many more copies and many more much older copies. The oldest date on the TR texts (to my knowledge) is 11th or 12th century. So they're old, but still at or over 1,000 years removed from the original autographs.

For KJV-onlyists, this is the manuscript group, nothing else will do. The argument basically centers around God preserving his Word and that the Textus Receptus is the most pure preserved Word.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textus_Receptus

Majority Text (MT) - The majority text is Byzantine in nature as well. In a nutshell, the New Testament has probably the most manuscripts available of any ancient work. The majority of these are Byzantine and date from the 5th century through the 16th-17th century, having been preserved by the church. Don't let it fool you, though, as these texts do not all agree 100%. There are variations within the MT type. The earliest church Father to quote the Byzantine version was John Chrysostom who lived at the end of the 4th and beginning of the 5th centuries. The oldest Byzantine reading text is the Syriac Peshitta, which dates from the 4th century, but it contains readings also from another text type which I will hit in the next category. Basically, though, you can see that there is a missing 300-400 year gap in between the New Testament being written and the earliest Byzantine texts.

The MT doesn't have as much support - though you'll see some in Reformed and maybe Baptist circles argue for it. The NKJV, while a revision of the KJV, leaned on the MT for various readings that it believed the KJV essentially got wrong. There is an Orthodox Bible and some other minor versions that use or consult the MT, but it does not have widespread use. The only major versions outside the NKJV would be the WEB and I *think* YLT (Young's Literal) uses the MT.

The HCSB would have probably been based on the MT had the original Editor, Farstad, survived.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_Text

Critical Text (CT) - The CT is the modern scholarly consensus text. For a brief while, we started out with the Alexandrian test type, consisting of about 30 manuscripts, which gives us the oldest manuscripts. Among these are the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, both of which are old. This family is dated to the 3rd century and moves forward from there. They're called Alexandrian because they generally come from Egypt...it probably has something to do with the dry climate which is much more favorable. Church fathers from the 2nd century beyond tend to quote this version.

It's now called the Critical Text because textual critics have tried to use the vast manuscript array to whittle it down to the closest text to the originals. All modern versions are based off of this text, such as the NIV, ESV, HCSB, NASB, etc. This would include many Reformed, Mainline, Evangelical, Baptist, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrian_text-type
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_text

The rub comes in the arguments that the CT/AT "omit" verses and then others assert that the MT "adds" verses. Common examples are the ending(s) of Mark and the Johanine Comma (I John 5:7-8). There is debate over this and both sides have interesting and valid points. I've gone back and forth, but I tend to favor the CT these days, especially with the Mark ending...the long ending just sounds very much like a summary that could have been added. However, I've seen some compelling arguments from the MT wing. I think the TR is solid and you can meet God through it, but I don't know that it's the "best." I am not an expert and generally defer to the scholars.

A lot of people get nervous with critics, and so you see attacks on the guys who began the criticism tradition (Westcott & Hort). They were occultists, but there have been a number of very good and very Christians scholars since who have verified things.

I do want to emphasize that the variations never change doctrine. I've seen this put forward a number of times, but its just not true. Often the examples are put forth in a vacuum when another verse (or verses) confirm things.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
67
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Hi Hammerstone, Oh, well if you put it that way :huh: then I'm a critical text guy. I prefer the NIV for accuracy as you read but the KJV along with the Strong's for deeper study. That's my 3 cents.
 

Xian Pugilist

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
231
10
0
I don't really care which version is used. NET Bible at bible.org has tons of translator's notes that help with the debates on what should be there and what shouldn't.... I think after their groundbreaking approach the other translations being worked on now for updates will follow suit.

I think people tend to make an idol out of the Bible.
So chats like this tend to end up in a fight.

As such I'll try to stay out.
 

Dan57

Active Member
Sep 25, 2012
510
224
43
Illinois
Faith
Country
United States
I personally prefer the Textus Receptus and use a KJV bible because I believe its the most accurate and reliable. I believe that the Minority Text being derived from the Alexandrian manuscripts were more susceptible to corruption.... http://www.revberman...es_Sept_07.html
 

Xian Pugilist

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
231
10
0
Dan, I hear this and I just cringe (respectfully) at how you can conclude that with the added verses.... I know we don't agree. I'm fine with that and I'm not picking atyou..... just.... I can't fathom it.
 

Dan57

Active Member
Sep 25, 2012
510
224
43
Illinois
Faith
Country
United States

HammerStone

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Feb 12, 2006
5,113
279
83
36
South Carolina
prayerforums.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's my biggest gripe with the Alexandrian family - it's coming from a known area of gnosticism and other religious influences.

However, I don't know how you can quantify that beyond saying this is what I think or feel about it. There's not really a marker for comparison. I've seen some Reformed guys talk about MT readings reflecting earlier quotes and snippets, but the early church fathers did seem to quote the Alexandrian family. I generally consult the ESV and NKJV in a lot of my studies, so I try to look at both traditions. There's a lot of minor variation, but nothing that changes things.

NET Bible at bible.org has tons of translator's notes that help with the debates on what should be there and what shouldn't.... I think after their groundbreaking approach the other translations being worked on now for updates will follow suit.

That's one of my gripes about the ESV which I otherwise like. It doesn't do the best job documenting differences. Not even close to the NET and I'd argue the NKJV does a much better job denoting the differences. ESV will also tend to say "the best manuscripts" which can be misleading.
 

Xian Pugilist

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
231
10
0
Dan, Yeah, I know the arguments. I don't care which way people flow on this, I really am not picking at you...

But trusting the translator is misleading. There are awesome translators, in fact nearly all of the finest, who, ( I bet ) you would not trust because they would not use the documents you prefer. I"m betting you'd put the documents before the translator.

My comment was just contrasting the difference between us. Not laying claims to what/who is right.



Your assuming verses were added to the KJV, while I don't... Its all a matter of which translators a person trust, and what manuscripts they used. http://www.chick.com/information/bibleversions/history.asp

I got studious enough that I picked up LOGOS silver scholar a few years ago. SO when it's really serious I have the tools to really dig in.

I read the NIV.
I study by NASB with NIV for contrast, but the NASB is the focus. I use the NET to help check my work.

So NIV, NASB, NET are the three I'm perusing in a serious study.

That's my biggest gripe with the Alexandrian family - it's coming from a known area of gnosticism and other religious influences.

However, I don't know how you can quantify that beyond saying this is what I think or feel about it. There's not really a marker for comparison. I've seen some Reformed guys talk about MT readings reflecting earlier quotes and snippets, but the early church fathers did seem to quote the Alexandrian family. I generally consult the ESV and NKJV in a lot of my studies, so I try to look at both traditions. There's a lot of minor variation, but nothing that changes things.



That's one of my gripes about the ESV which I otherwise like. It doesn't do the best job documenting differences. Not even close to the NET and I'd argue the NKJV does a much better job denoting the differences. ESV will also tend to say "the best manuscripts" which can be misleading.
 

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 31, 2010
5,178
2,385
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I like reading the KJV along with the Strongs exhaustive concordance. I had no interest in the bible until I got saved. It's where the Holy Spirit led me.
 

Xian Pugilist

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
231
10
0
He may have you saying that here, now, as the next step to increase the diligence of your studies. By tomorrow you may be using something else.

NET Bible at www.bible.org you can DL for free on your computer. CHeck it out to use as something to help give you some views on scripture. Just using ONE translation tends to leave you succeptable to bias.



I like reading the KJV along with the Strongs exhaustive concordance. I had no interest in the bible until I got saved. It's where the Holy Spirit led me.
 

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 31, 2010
5,178
2,385
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I started seeing the error in the KJV when they called agape charity.... Study....

Caritus: Latin’s highest form of Love.
Charit'e: French derivative, “cheri" means beloved.
Charis: The Greek word for grace (unconditional love).
Chara: The Greek word for joy.
Eucharisteo: The Greek word for gratitude…
Charizomai: The Greek word for well-favored….
Chairo: The Greek word for cheer.
Chrestos: Useful (in manner or morals), gracious.
Chrestotes: Excellence in character.
Chara: Greek word for joy.
Euchrestos: Greek for profitable.
Charisma: Heavenly Graciousness
Chrisma: Heavenly Anointing

Charity is more akin to grace.

Phileo is friend. agape is much phileo, or deep friendship. So instead of charity the KJV would have been better off using the word love.
 

Xian Pugilist

New Member
Aug 4, 2012
231
10
0
Then you must really really really hate the LXX which uses agape or one of it's derivatives for incestuous rape.

Charity is a fine word for Agapao/Agape most of the time. That use of Charity is one of the few things I praise them for. Problem was, Charity took on a different meaning after the new deal. So some of the translations found it not giving the appropriate "feel" to the readers.

Agape is an emotion that is demonstrated by action. That's why the rape would be translated with agape in the LXX, it was an emotion with an action. That's why its used for men that love to DO evil things too. That's why Christ says Love your neighbor and tells the story of the sheep and the goats where the goats didn't do the work and the sheep did. The sheep had the love right. It's why Paul says theology isn't important but acts of love through faith is. It's why Christ commanded you to love as well God does and explained that GOD PROVIDED THINGS for His ENEMIES.

AGAPE is different from Phileo in so much as Agape requires the demonstration/ the work/ the action/ the deed to be Agape.



I started seeing the error in the KJV when they called agape charity.... Study....

Caritus: Latin’s highest form of Love.
Charit'e: French derivative, “cheri" means beloved.
Charis: The Greek word for grace (unconditional love).
Chara: The Greek word for joy.
Eucharisteo: The Greek word for gratitude…
Charizomai: The Greek word for well-favored….
Chairo: The Greek word for cheer.
Chrestos: Useful (in manner or morals), gracious.
Chrestotes: Excellence in character.
Chara: Greek word for joy.
Euchrestos: Greek for profitable.
Charisma: Heavenly Graciousness
Chrisma: Heavenly Anointing

Charity is more akin to grace.

Phileo is friend. agape is much phileo, or deep friendship. So instead of charity the KJV would have been better off using the word love.
 

neophyte

Member
Apr 25, 2012
669
12
18
I like reading the KJV along with the Strongs exhaustive concordance. I had no interest in the bible until I got saved. It's where the Holy Spirit led me.

Some of you Protestants on this forum are saying that the only acceptable version of the Bible is the King James. This position is known as King James-onlyism. Its advocates often make jokes such as, "If the King James Version was good enough for the apostle Paul, it is good enough for me," or, "My King James Version corrects your Greek text."
They commonly claim that the King James is based on the only perfect set of manuscripts we have (a false claim; there is no perfect set of manuscripts; and the ones used for the KJV were compiled by a Catholic, Erasmus), that it is the only translation that avoids modern, liberal renderings, and that its translators were extremely saintly and scholarly men. Since the King James is also known as "the Authorized Version" (AV), its advocates sometimes argue that it is the only version to ever have been "authorized." To this one may point out that it was only authorized in the Anglican church, which now uses other translations. For a still-in print critique of King James-onlyism, see D. A. Carson,[ I believe to be Protestant ] The King James Version Debate a Plea for Realism [ Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979 ]
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,245
850
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No translation is perfect, but the written Word of God within a plenary-translation is perfect. So, the translation isn't the issue, it's the Manuscripts used for the translation. The reason for the categorizing of the two Manuscript text sources (Majority/Minority) is due to their contextual disagreement. Most of the extant Manuscript copies are in acceptable agreement but there exists a smaller portion of copies which contextually disagree with them and even among themselves (Minority Text).

The antiquity of the Minority Text is an evidence against its credibility because it wasn't acceptable enough to be categorized with the Majority and so were usually discarded and so, not used. To perpetuate the Scriptures, copies had to be made when the exemplars were approaching illegibility due to repetitious use and this explains why most of the Majority copies are not as antiquated as the Minority text.
 

Nomad

Post Tenebras Lux
Aug 9, 2009
995
143
43
58
Philadelphia, PA.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Neophyte presented the facts of the matter as they stand. I re posted his/her comments below. The Comma Johanneum, or 1 John 5:7-8 may not be genuine. I know this upsets many people, but we have to deal with the facts that we have before us.

The basic argument is this; Can a genuine passage of Scripture disappear from the earliest manuscript evidence and then reappear centuries later? That's the question we must wrestle with. So what does this mean for the doctrine of the Trinity? Absolutely nothing. I've been defending the Trinity against Unitarians in debates for many years and I have never used 1 John 5:7-8. The Bible is thoroughly Trinitarian.

Also, how does this effect our confidence in the reliability of Scripture? Knowing what I know about textual criticism, I'm completely confident. First, not one major tenet of the Faith rests on a single verse, questionable verse, or textual variant. Also, unlike the Koran, for example, we have such a wealth of textual evidence to examine that the wholesale corruption of Scripture is just not possible. One of Islam's earliest Caliphs created an edited version of the Koran and subsequently had all manuscripts that differed from his destroyed. That means there is a lot of uncertainty about what was originally in the Koran. Thank God that we don't have that problem.



Nomad, maybe I can help you with the Comma Johanneum,
The Johannine Gloss or Johannine Comma, as it is more commonly known, is an interpolated passage which appears in 1 John 5:7-8, shown here in brackets: "For there are three who bear witness [in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth]: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three are one."
The New Catholic Encyclopedia explains that

the bracketed phrases appear in the [Vulgate] version of the Bible, the official version of the Sacred Scriptures for the Latin Rite of the Church. Among scholars these phrases are commonly called the "Johannine Comma." On the basis of manuscript evidence scholars seriously question their authenticity. The Comma is absent in all the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament with the exception of four rather recent manuscripts that date from the thirteenth to the sixteenth centuries.
The Comma is lacking in such ancient Oriental versions as the Peshitta, Philoxenian, Coptic, Ethiopic, and Armenian. While the majority of the Latin manuscripts of 1 John do contain the Comma, the earlier and better manuscripts, both the Old Latin and the Vulgate versions, lack it. The earliest manuscript in which it appears dates from the ninth century.
The Fathers of the East do not quote or refer to the Johannine Comma in their Christological controversies. This omission indicates that the Comma was not part of the biblical text of their time, for they surely would have used it had it been in the text. Some fourth-century Latin writers, while referring to 1 John 5:8b and giving this a Trinitarian interpretation, failed to give any indication that they knew of the existence of the Comma as a scriptural passage.
Due to the overcritical spirit that was prevalent in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the Church considered it necessary in its decree of the Holy Office of January 13,1897 to caution its scholars against rashly rejecting or doubting the authenticity of this passage. However, in a decree of June 2, 1927, the Holy Office clarified its earlier statement in declaring that scholars may be inclined to doubt or reject the authenticity of the Johannine Comma subject to any forthcoming judgment of the Church. No scholar any longer accepts its authenticity. But even though the Comma is not a biblical passage, it is a firm witness to the fact that the faith of the [early] Christian was fully Trinitarian.​
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,245
850
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Comma Johanneum, or 1 John 5:7-8 may not be genuine.

Hi Nomad - Many contemporary Bible scalars since the first Revision of 1889 claim that the Comma Johanneum lacks enough manuscript evidence for validation, but their concept conflicts greatly with the scolars of the Reformers.

Many are unaware of their practical use of italicizing (KJV, KJ2 and NKJ) words not found in the manuscripts. A good example is 2 Sam 21:19; the phrase "the brother of" is not found in the Hebrew manuscripts so they included it in italics to avoid being an errant reading.

Those utilizing the Minority manuscripts (primarily the codex Vaticanis and codex Sinaiticus) left the reading as is and therefore errantly reads that Elhanan killed Goliath, which conflicts with 1 Chro 20:5.

The Reformers when translating the KJV found enough manuscript evidence to validate the "Comma Johanneum" of 1 John 5:7, because it's not italicized.
 

Nomad

Post Tenebras Lux
Aug 9, 2009
995
143
43
58
Philadelphia, PA.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Many are unaware of their practical use of italicizing (KJV, KJ2 and NKJ) words not found in the manuscripts. A good example is 2 Sam 21:19; the phrase "the brother of" is not found in the Hebrew manuscripts so they included it in italics to avoid being an errant reading.

Yes, the KJV and the like utilize italics to alert the reader to words that are added for clarification or simply to translate Greek or Hebrew into good readable English. In many cases there is no such thing as a one to one correspondence (word for word) between the original languages and English. This really has nothing to do with the problem of the Comma Johanneum. We're talking about an entire pericope that doesn't appear in any Greek manuscript before the ninth century.


The Reformers when translating the KJV found enough manuscript evidence to validate the "Comma Johanneum" of 1 John 5:7, because it's not italicized.

I'm not sure where you're getting this information, but it's not correct. The Greek text used by the Reformers would eventually become the Textus Receptus. They used this text because it was the only text available to them, not because they rejected all others.

Erasmus' first and second edition of the TR did not include the Comma Johanneum because it wasn't in the Greek texts that he had at his disposal. It was found in the Vulgate however, and Erasmus was accused of promoting Arianism. Erasmus challenged his attackers to find a Greek manuscript that contained the reading. He was presented with Codex Montifortianus and subsequently included the Comma Johanneum in his third edition of the TR. Codex Montifortianus is now at Trinity College in Dublin and is considered highly suspect in that it was most likely created in the house of the Grey Friars by one of Eramus' enemies simply to refute him.

The KJV translators' Textus Receptus,was the product of primarily three men, Erasmus, Stephanus and Beza. Again, the Comma Johanneum is only in the TR because of a single suspect manuscript presented to the first of these three editors. This is hardly enough evidence to validate the Comma Johanneum.
 

Netchaplain

Ordained Chaplain
Oct 12, 2011
2,245
850
113
Missouri
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Greek text used by the Reformers would eventually become the Textus Receptus.

I'm not sure if we're saying the same thing here but the Textus Receptus is another name for the Traditional Text or Majority Text, which was the primary basis for producing the KJ translations. All other modern translations base their versions mostly on the Minority Text, which is the Critical Text.

"There once were many ancient manuscripts containing the Byzantine text, manuscripts much older than B6 (Vaticanus) and ALEPH (Sinaiticus), but they were read so constantly and copied so frequently that finally they wore out and perished. This is why only a few ancient Byzantine manuscripts are extant today. The main reason why B, ALEPH and other non-Byzantine manuscripts have survived to the present day is because they (all Alexandrian text types, which includes B and ALEPH) were rejected by the Greek church as faulty and so were not used". (Which Bible, Fuller, pg.7)

Nearly all modern translations are primarily based on the codexs Sinaiticus and Vaticanus.