Mandatory church attendance?

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Raeneske

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lforrest said:
Rep. Senator Sylvia Allen's off the cuff proposal would help with the declining morals in the US that is leading to increased gun violence. Ironically she hit the nail on the head but all people can see is the compulsory church attendance part.
People need to know that to compel anyone to keep the Sunday sacredly is evil. This is no good thing, but an evil thing that is being done, and shall be done.
StanJ said:
Yes I understand this issue, but making a law to force people to go to church would in effect get the state into religion. For years they have been taking religion out of their places of purview and now want to tell people they have to go to church on Sundays? It ain't gonna happen.
Well Stan, it is going to happen. The church has yet to make use of her lobbying power to advocate Sunday Laws. This power to lobby law was granted her, when she accepted the government 501c3.

"A 501(c)(3) organization may engage in some lobbying, but too much lobbying activity risks loss of tax-exempt status. ... An organization will be regarded as attempting to influence legislation if it contacts, or urges the public to contact, members or employees of a legislative body for the purpose of proposing, supporting, or opposing legislation, or if the organization advocates the adoption or rejection of legislation." - http://www.irs.gov/Charities-%26-Non-Profits/Lobbying

Accepting the 501c3, she has formed the image of the beast, that Revelation speaks of. What is the beast whose image she is formed in? The first beast of revelation, which is depicted as a woman riding (in control) a beast. America's Churches have been given power to lobby government laws. Sylvia Allen has opened her mouth, and proposed the very law herself, though she declared that it would never happen. No, it will happen. No, I am not an advocate of the law, but merely am speaking on terms of prophecy. It is going to happen. What she said is going to be advanced. It doesn't matter if it takes 5 years, or 10 years. It's going to happen. Woe unto them, though, who push and advocate this law, for they know not what they are doing, trying to push the mark of the beast.
 

TopherNelson

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Angelina said:
I'm not American but I think it's a bad idea. Going to Church is a decision made within individual families or members who believe the word or who have had a divine encounter with God. Making everyone go to Church will certainly help the Church financially but it certainly will not make anyone automatically saved. :unsure: I understand her premise however, forcing people to Church will cause the opposite effect. Mankind needs a heart change not a law change.


A good example of this is the Law vs salvation by grace through faith.
I had divine encounters. I still don't go to church weekly because I couldn't manage to...
 

Raeneske

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lforrest said:
I didnt want to draw this into a gun debate, so lets look at violence in general. If people are becoming more immoral violent crime should increase. But I've looked at the statistics and violent crimes have been decreasing since the 90s. What then is the moral decline doing to society?
I would encourage you to look at what they consider immoral. Before homosexuality is viewed as immoral. Now? Think about it.
 

pom2014

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Before the Jews homosexuality was legal and in some cases encouraged.

It was still legal in many areas during the time of Jesus.

The whole nostalgia that people have of morality of the past is utter rubbish.

During the supposed good old days of church attendance and anti-homosexuality people were lynching black people, abusing alcohol, tobacco and over the counter medication and engaging in pre marital sex.

So not really moral.
 

StanJ

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pom2014 said:
Before the Jews homosexuality was legal and in some cases encouraged.

It was still legal in many areas during the time of Jesus.

The whole nostalgia that people have of morality of the past is utter rubbish.

During the supposed good old days of church attendance and anti-homosexuality people were lynching black people, abusing alcohol, tobacco and over the counter medication and engaging in pre marital sex.

So not really moral.
I don't agree. Sodom & Gomorrah was before the Jews and was NOT encouraged.

You'll have to corroborate these assertions pom.
 

Raeneske

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pom2014 said:
Before the Jews homosexuality was legal and in some cases encouraged.

It was still legal in many areas during the time of Jesus.

The whole nostalgia that people have of morality of the past is utter rubbish.

During the supposed good old days of church attendance and anti-homosexuality people were lynching black people, abusing alcohol, tobacco and over the counter medication and engaging in pre marital sex.

So not really moral.
So what you're saying is, is that there is no more moral corruption now, than in time past?

Matthew 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Without a doubt our generation is more corrupt than generations in time past. This immorality, Sylvia Allen touches upon. Yet, her answer to dealing with the corruption is an absolute danger to the spiritual lives of every single person of mankind. Should they follow along with the enforcement of the Sunday law, they will lose their salvation. They have accepted the mark of the beast, which is in blatant contradiction to the Word of God. The Word is plain. Remember the Sabbath Day. The world is teaching, Remember Sunday. Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve.
 

michaelvpardo

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pom2014 said:
The states have the highest gun ownership per capita than any other nation on the globe.

Say that with me one more time.

Highest gun ownership on the globe.

They also have the highest rate of gun violence on the globe.

Now before all the gun owners go crackers, know I possess a gun and that worldwide most murders, even in the states, are from blunt force trauma.

But be aware that the most guns and violence with guns is in the states.
In the states we don't teach children how to shoot automatic weapons and then release them upon unarmed civilians that oppose us politically or oppose our religion, this does however go on over seas in more than one location (or maybe we do, I guess that depends upon how you define "children".)
There are more statistics on gun violence available in the US than in other places, but with statistics, its all in the sampling and reporting (and clever people who want to hide the truth are careful how they sample and report.)
According to the Public safety professionals that I've spoken to in the states of NY and NJ, the second most common murder weapon is a baseball bat. Guns don't kill anyone, people do.
 
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brakelite

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Revelation 13 reveals a time soon to come that worship will be enforced by government decree. I believe Sunday observance will be a major component of that legislation for many reasons.Now I am no expert on American constitutional law, nor am I so familiar with the first amendment that I would dare to proclaim myself an expositor of truth when it comes to interpreting it. Add to that the fact that I write from several thousand miles away in about as remote a part of the south Pacific as you can get, and some may wonder that I would dare to comment at all. I am aware that there are many and varied arguments that permeate the debate on how the first amendment should be understood, especially at the base level of church/state union.
So what qualifies me to dare comment on an issue that is so, ummm…American? Well, first off, I am a Christian. And second, American political decisions do tend to have an effect that creates ripples and collateral damage far removed from her own borders. And thirdly, and most importantly, Biblical prophecy tells us that there is going to come a time when religious freedom worldwide becomes a mere idea and a long lost hope of the persecuted. It is my belief that prophecy indicates that religious freedom first becomes an endangered species in the United States, despite the intents and purposes of her founding fathers, and the resulting constitution and Bill of Rights. This of course will surprise many, not only because of the deep respect for the constitution most Americans have, (and rightly so…it is a unique and wonderful document,) but also because the United States is not actually named in the Bible thus it is only with some interpretive study that she can be found. Such a course is of course highly debatable and controversial, yet I will stand by what I’ve said.

Atheists in the U.S. have of recent times decried religious freedom rallies as promotions for theocracy. I do have some sympathy with their view. Throughout history religious ‘freedom’ has often been promoted with the intent that the majority religion have the right to enforce their beliefs on the minority, as happened in medieval Europe, both in Protestant and Catholic countries. It is not without a little fear that I see the current strength of the religious ‘right’ in America using its great leverage to promote her pet candidates at all levels of American politics, with the intent no doubt to bring about a ‘Christianised’ nation through its civil or secular authorities.

One must remember that although the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were written and signed by and large by godly people, those documents were specifically designed to ensure freedom of conscience and religious liberty, even liberty for unbelievers. The US government as a political entity is not, nor ever was , a “Christian” government. And the only true hope for America, and the rest of the world, is not in the “Christianizing” of the government, but in the heartfelt deep life-changing repentant soul-searching conversion of the individual American people.

I think that what we must acknowledge is that historically, America was embarking on a brand new revolutionary concept. Religious liberty, freedom of conscience. A civil rule without a king, a religious nation without a pope. Coming from a Europe that was just emerging from over 1000 years of papal tyranny the founding fathers of your nation were establishing a nation with an exclusively protestant ethic, even though it took some time for even protestants to learn.

We as Christians have far more to fear from governments with a religious agenda (including ‘Christian’ agendas…read again Revelation 13:11-17) than any secular government. Interestingly, history tells us that Christian communities thrived very well under the rule of such as Genghis Khan, because he was neutral in matters of religion. (Although he was certainly less than tolerant with those who opposed him politically.) I am encouraged by the unanimous agreement among members on this forum that legislating for Sunday would be a retrograde step in the cause of religious freedom, however, as some suggested (including myself ) certain circumstances can change ones perspective overnight.

Let us not however forget the past, the price paid for the freedoms we enjoy, and out of frustration or lack of faith in God’s power, or willingness, to establish His kingdom among us, let us not resort to government legislation to reinstate those virtues which we may deem lost or in danger of being eroded, as it seems so many in the churches seem to be espousing recently. That my friends, will be a greater calamity than any could imagine.
 

Born_Again

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StanJ said:
When was the last time somebody killed 26 human beings with a baseball bat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
That would be quite the accomplishment if someone had, Stan. :p

At any rate, @Brakelite, I think we have a misunderstanding. I was more or less referring to out morals and beliefs and the fact that there are more pushes everyday to enact a law that goes against everything we believe in and what this country was founded on.... i.e. gay marriage and such. So I was meaning more our way of life. There is even a push out of some state out west to force all churches to accept gay marriage or lose their accreditation. So, that being said, I think it would be highly unlikely that something like a mandatory church attendance would even gain enough ground to get glanced at....

BA
 
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StanJ

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brakelite said:
Revelation 13 reveals a time soon to come that worship will be enforced by government decree.
Maybe you can exposit that for us?
Born_Again said:
There is even a push out of some state out west to force all churches to accept gay marriage or lose their accreditation. So, that being said, I think it would be highly unlikely that something like a mandatory church attendance would even gain enough ground to get glanced at....

BA
That same LGBT agenda is also here in Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/ID/2661902488/
 

pom2014

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There is even a push out of some state out west to force all churches to accept gay marriage or lose their accreditation.

Please elaborate on what accrediting entails?
 

StanJ

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pom2014 said:
There is even a push out of some state out west to force all churches to accept gay marriage or lose their accreditation.

Please elaborate on what accrediting entails?
It's not an easy issue, but bottom line is that it allows organizations to receive monies TAX FREE. It also allows them to give receipts so that donations can be written off by the donators.
You can find the info here but it takes some reading and being able to assimilate legalese.

http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Churches-&-Religious-Organizations

BTW, it is a lot easier in Canada to get a Charitable Status than it is the U.S.
 

pom2014

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Ah that's what I thought.

No church should be tax free, so if they lose that I'll feel no sympathy.
 

StanJ

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pom2014 said:
Ah that's what I thought.

No church should be tax free, so if they lose that I'll feel no sympathy.
It would be a valid debate, especially when so many churches do NOTHING to serve the communities they are in. In any event there would need to be a change in law to improve tax free status of ANY organization. Soup kitchens/Homeless shelters do far more to warrant tax free status than huge buildings like the Crystal Cathedral.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/02/robert-schuller-dead-crystal-cathedral_n_6992686.html
 
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brakelite

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Born_Again said:
That would be quite the accomplishment if someone had, Stan. :p

At any rate, @Brakelite, I think we have a misunderstanding. I was more or less referring to out morals and beliefs and the fact that there are more pushes everyday to enact a law that goes against everything we believe in and what this country was founded on.... i.e. gay marriage and such. So I was meaning more our way of life. There is even a push out of some state out west to force all churches to accept gay marriage or lose their accreditation. So, that being said, I think it would be highly unlikely that something like a mandatory church attendance would even gain enough ground to get glanced at....

BA
Okay, I see where you are coming from, and the US isn't alone on that one. Political correctness and liberal agendas are making their presence felt in church life the world over. Add to that the degradation in morals in civil society and we have a very sad world we are trying to live with. Imagine if you will a time in the not too distant future where said society's moral structure (for whatever that is currently worth) becomes totally unglued as a result of what Jesus warned about in Matt 24. . Natural disasters. Not just localized small scale events, but internationally impacting catastrophes which kill millions. Along with what is predicted by most experts, a global meltdown in financial stability. Such a climate of circumstances can so easily induce nominal churches and their respective members to scream at the government to enact laws to 'bring back moral substance' to society to placate what they would deem to be the judgments of an angry God. The first law, the easiest law, the one already on the books of many states, would be a Sunday law..
StanJ said:
It would be a valid debate, especially when so many churches do NOTHING to serve the communities they are in. In any event there would need to be a change in law to improve tax free status of ANY organization. Soup kitchens/Homeless shelters do far more to warrant tax free status than huge buildings like the Crystal Cathedral.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/02/robert-schuller-dead-crystal-cathedral_n_6992686.html
Agreed Stan. But there are many church organizations that do heaps to help the downtrodden in society. Salvation Army come to mind, and my own church has a highly effective disaster relief arm that deserve a tax break. They relieve the government of much responsibility, labor costs, and financial outlay that the small tax breaks they get are minimal by comparison.
 

StanJ

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brakelite said:
Agreed Stan. But there are many church organizations that do heaps to help the downtrodden in society. Salvation Army come to mind, and my own church has a highly effective disaster relief arm that deserve a tax break. They relieve the government of much responsibility, labor costs, and financial outlay that the small tax breaks they get are minimal by comparison.
I agree. I'm just trying to differentiate between playing church and being the church. The Sally Anne is definitely in the latter group, and THAT group deserves ALL the credits it can get.
 
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brakelite

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Apart from Biblical revelation, there are several reasons why I am convinced Sunday laws are coming.
1. Because the Catholic church is gaining greater power and influence in American politics, both through her Jesuit agents and her many adherents. Most Catholic politicians are loyal to the pope first and the nation second. The current pope and his two predecessors has been making much noise concerning greater recognition being given to Sunday 'sacredness'. Laws in Europe are now mandating this, it is only a matter of time the the US follows suit.

2. Many protestant organizations share the same views as those above, and have powerful lobbyists in govt. promoting Sunday laws.

3. Influential Christians of different denominations are promoting greater recognition being given to Sunday sacredness. Pat Robertson, Chuck Colsen, James Dobson are but a few of many supporting the concept.

4. I believe the majority of American Christians would go along with it.

5. Even non-Christians (including Jews!) would welcome one day in the week of a regular legislated day off.

6. Because it has been done before in many states and went almost national in the 1880's. Many states still have Sunday laws on their books; it is only a matter of reinforcing them to make them active. History repeats, as it was in Europe in the dark ages, so I believe it will be in the near future, only globally, with the US leading the way.

7. It has been shown in time of major crisis that it is human nature to give greater consideration to spiritual matters. This I have noticed is particularly so with American people, and to their credit. Who will forget the reaction of Americans after 9/11? From our view down-under it appeared that every man and his poodle graced the portals of your churches with their presence for many weeks afterward, and great discussion was generated throughout the US media at the time of spiritual matters in relation to biblical prophecy and end time events etc. Although this may have waned somewhat since, I don't think any of us who believe the Bible would accept that times are getting better, and that greater crisis and disasters are just round the corner.

7. History has shown (again hark back to 9/11) that in a time of crisis individual freedom is relegated to a distant second behind self-preservation/ 'security.'

8. A greater crisis is coming. In what form it will take we do not know. Natural, man-made, maybe both, maybe many of both. But come it will, of that we can be sure. And people will rightly turn to God for comfort, assurance, and salvation even. God-fearing sincere Christians of most denominations will examine themselves and seek to be doing God's will in light of what they perceive as God's judgments on the ungodly. Sunday laws will be seen as a step to get the nation 'back to God'. Enacting Sunday laws will be seen by many as an act of repentance to stave off God's righteous judgments against what has become a Godless society.

The Sunday 'blue laws' of many states in early American history were vigorously imposed at the time. Many Sabbath keepers and atheists who chose to live according to their conscience as opposed to man's laws were fined, jailed, forced to leave their homes and livelihood, were beaten and persecuted. and threatened with the death penalty. I am unsure if any were actually executed. I do believe that this will be repeated. Any law must have consequences for those who would disobey. Freedom of conscience will become foreign to the thinking of the Christian church at that time.
And it will be repeated those prophetic words of Christ, "the time is coming when they who kill you will think they are serving God."