MARK 6:3 DID JESUS HAVE BROTHERS AND SISTERS ?

[GodsGrace]

"A rock" (petros) is not the same as "THE Rock" (petra).

I know.
Theologians know this too.
There is doubt.
I'm not saying that Peter is the ROCK.
Jesus is the Rock.

But when Jesus said "and on THIS ROCK"...
was He referring to Himself...?
Or pointing to Peter and meaning HIM?

Catholics say it's Peter
Protestants say it's Jesus because we love to protest.

I'm just not sure.

In any case, Peter is not the first Pope.
Simple history.

But he certainly was very respected at that time.

 

[Enoch111]

But when Jesus said "and on THIS ROCK"... was He referring to Himself...?

Undoubtedly. "Petra" means a massive rock formation or a cliff. And we go back to the OT and see that this Rock was Christ.

 

[Marymog]

Jesus is the rock, not an institution. Interesting though most catholics think Peter is the rock. That too is incorrect.

1Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

There are more in both o.t. and n.t. The rock is Jesus.
I've yet to find a catholic that can even find their church within the pages of the n.t. let alone prove He established the roman catholic church. Which didn't even exist yet.
How many verses has your church infallibly defined in approx 2000 years? (allegedly)
Where is the verse where we are supposed to put our faith in the church? And 1 Tim 3:15 says ....pillar and foundation of THE truth. Not simply 'truth'. It changes the meaning. Your quote makes it look like the catholic church is the pillar and foundation of truth itself. The church upholds the truth, its not truth in and of itself.
Binding and loosing has to do with the gospel. Not power as youre thinking. Romans 1:16;
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Jesus gave the keys to all of us that proclaim the gospel. Thats what the great commission is all about.


The ekklesia. This is what God Himself places you in when you are born again.

 

[JohnPaul]

Isn’t Peter Latin for rock, hence petrified?

As Enoch111 mentioned above.

 

[GodsGrace]

Undoubtedly. "Petra" means a massive rock formation or a cliff. And we go back to the OT and see that this Rock was Christ.

Yes. I know about the play on words... This is always taken into
Consideration.
Did you ever study this?

 

[GodsGrace]

Isn’t Peter Latin for rock, hence petrified?

As Enoch111 mentioned above.

Petra means a big rock.
Petros means a small Rock.

Petra is feminine, and the name Petros is masculine...
A play on words.

 

[JohnPaul]

Petra means a big rock.
Petros means a small Rock.

Petra is feminine, and the name Petros is masculine...
A play on words.

Thank you GodsGrace.

 

[BreadOfLife]

"A rock" (petros) is not the same as "THE Rock" (petra).

And Jesus didn't call Simon "A" Rock. He simply called him "Rock" (Kepha).

Peter is THE Rock that Jesus spoke of in Matt. 16:8., and there's NO getting around this fact . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Petra means a big rock.
Petros means a small Rock.

Petra is feminine, and the name Petros is masculine...
A play on words.

Thank you GodsGrace.

The problem is - Jesus didn't speak Greek to His Apostles - He spoke ARAMAIC.

In Aramaic, "Kepha" means "Rock" - period.
This is why we see Peter being referred to as "Cephas" in Paul's letters. John used the term "Petros" to describe a man because oit is masculine, as you pointed out.
To have called him, "Petra" would have been silly since Petra is feminine. It would be like calling him "Patricia".

Protestants have a big problem with Matt. 16:28 and choose to ignore the linguistic and Scriptural implications because they would have to admit that the Catholic Church is right . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

The problem is - Jesus didn't speak Greek to His Apostles - He spoke ARAMAIC.

In Aramaic, "Kepha" means "Rock" - period.
This is why we see Peter being referred to as "Cephas" in Paul's letters. John used the term "Petros" to describe a man because oit is masculine, as you pointed out.
To have called him, "Petra" would have been silly since Petra is feminine. It would be like calling him "Patricia".

Protestants have a big problem with Matt. 16:28 and choose to ignore the linguistic and Scriptural implications because they would have to admit that the Catholic Church is right . . .

Yes. I know about Cephas.
But I'm sooooo tired right now trying to convince some people that God requires obedience and that He left us with many works to do.

Works
Obedience

Oh my. These words should not be mentioned.
I think there should be a Protestant Pope...you know,,,keep everybody on the correct path. Teach what the bible means so every single person doesn't get to interpret it for themselves.

Am I sounding Catholic to you?
Yeah.

 

[Enoch111]

Peter is THE Rock that Jesus spoke of in Matt. 16:8., and there's NO getting around this fact . . .

Peter cannot possibly be "the Rock". There is only only Rock in Scripture and that is Christ. Peter was a stone in comparison to the cliff.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus is the rock, not an institution. Interesting though most catholics think Peter is the rock. That too is incorrect.

1Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

There are more in both o.t. and n.t. The rock is Jesus.
I've yet to find a catholic that can even find their church within the pages of the n.t. let alone prove He established the roman catholic church. Which didn't even exist yet.
How many verses has your church infallibly defined in approx 2000 years? (allegedly)
Where is the verse where we are supposed to put our faith in the church? And 1 Tim 3:15 says ....pillar and foundation of THE truth. Not simply 'truth'. It changes the meaning. Your quote makes it look like the catholic church is the pillar and foundation of truth itself. The church upholds the truth, its not truth in and of itself.
Binding and loosing has to do with the gospel. Not power as youre thinking. Romans 1:16;
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Jesus gave the keys to all of us that proclaim the gospel. Thats what the great commission is all about.

The ekklesia. This is what God Himself places you in when you are born again.

WRONG on just about every point.

First of all - Jesus IS the Rock, as the verses you presented show. HOWEVER, He is not the only one in Scripture who is called this.
There are TWO other men in Scripture that are described as being "The Rock":
1) Abraham (Isa. 51:1-2)
2) Peter (Matt. 16:18)

This does NOT diminish Christ because it is the Word of GOD that proclaimed it.


As for the fallacy that the Catholic Church is NOT found on the pages of Scripture, this is false.
Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church:

“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

According to Strong’s Greek Concordance – the verse is translated as:
“The true Church throughout all Judea . . .”

Here is the phrase in Greek:
η μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ ολης της ιουδαιας

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “ekklesia katah-holos”.

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH
Καθ (katah) - Through out, according to
Ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely

"Ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.


Finally - Jesus gave the Keys to PETER and PETER alone.
Matt. 16:19 is an almost verbatim fulfillment of God's giving the Keys to the House of David to Eliakim:
Isa. 22:22
I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Matt. 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

So much for your BOGUS claims . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes. I know about Cephas.
But I'm sooooo tired right now trying to convince some people that God requires obedience and that He left us with many works to do.

Works
Obedience

Oh my. These words should not be mentioned.
I think there should be a Protestant Pope...you know,,,keep everybody on the correct path. Teach what the bible means so every single person doesn't get to interpret it for themselves.

Am I sounding Catholic to you?
Yeah.

There ARE Protestant Popes - thousands of them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Peter cannot possibly be "the Rock". There is only only Rock in Scripture and that is Christ. Peter was a stone in comparison to the cliff.

This is nonsense.

I already showed you that BOTH Abraham (Isa. (51:1-2) and Peter (Matt. 16:18) are referred to as "The Rock".
So, unless you are rejecting the Word of God, you must recognize this . . .

As for the "stone" and "cliff" reference - I also showed you that this argument goes right OUT the window because they spoke Aramaic - not Greek.
I also showed you that Peter is referred to as "Cephas" in Paul's letters, which is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha".

YOUR turn.

 

[GodsGrace]

There ARE Protestant Popes - thousands of them.

I forgot.
Maybe THIS is the problem?

 

[GodsGrace]

Peter cannot possibly be "the Rock". There is only only Rock in Scripture and that is Christ. Peter was a stone in comparison to the cliff.

Did Jesus know He was the rock?
No. Really.

 

[Enoch111]

Did Jesus know He was the rock?
No. Really.

Should we laugh or should we cry at this remark?

Is Jesus God?
Does He know all things?
Does He not know that He is the Rock?
Did He not call Himself the Stone which the builders rejected?
Did He not call Himself "I AM"?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Should we laugh or should we cry at this remark?

Is Jesus God?
Does He know all things?
Does He not know that He is the Rock?
Did He not call Himself the Stone which the builders rejected?
Did He not call Himself "I AM"?

Yup - Jesus knew He was the Rock.
And since He is the Word of God (John 1:1) - He ALSO knows that Abraham is the Rock (Isa. 51:1-2) and Peter is the rock (Matt. 16:18).

 

[BreadOfLife]

In any case, Peter is not the first Pope.
Simple history.

Really??
Simple history??

Here's some "simple history" that proves your comments wrong . . .

Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria
The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian
The Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

The Lord says to Peter: "I say to you," he says, "that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church" . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he should desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).

Optatus
In the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head — that is why he is also called Cephas — of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [circa A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan
[Christ] made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Augustine
Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).
Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).

 

[GodsGrace]

Should we laugh or should we cry at this remark?

Is Jesus God?
Does He know all things?
Does He not know that He is the Rock?
Did He not call Himself the Stone which the builders rejected?
Did He not call Himself "I AM"?

You should be nice Enoch.
When a question is asked,,,it should be answered.
No crying, no laughing.

Mathew 22:42 came to mind after I wrote you.
Jesus Himself said He was the cornerstone.

Some ideas in the N.T. came out clearly after Jesus had already ascended.
I do a lot of thinking about THE ROCK.
Was it Jesus?
Or was it Peter?

Yes.. I have my doubts.
Why? Because we weren't there when Jesus said
ON THIS ROCK...He could have meant Peter because He also gave Peter the keys.

So I guess YOU are NOT the person to ask questions to.
Will look for a better receptor.