Mark of the Beast, or the Seal of God (long topic)

[Raeneske]

why don't you ask them, since you're obviously allied with their doctrines, as many others that come here are.

Although I have friends that are SDA, their doctrines that originate from within a 'small group' set them up as just another cult among Christianity, one of many today.





Dan 8:11-14
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

The previous verses associated with the 2300 days go with it.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

How long until what?
a. daily sacrifice
b. transgression of desolation ("abomination of desolation" idol setup in the temple)
c. sanctuary and host trodden (direct association with Rev.11:1-2 about the 42 months)

Thus the period is about the time of the daily sacrifices, and then the abomination idol setup, and then the period the Gentiles tread Jerusalem for 42 months per Rev.11:1-2. What ENDS all that? Christ's second coming, for that 42 months of Rev.11:1-2 is the same period as the 1260 days of Rev.11:3 about God's two witnesses.

Thusly, from the time of the daily sacrifice is going on, all the way until the time of Christ's second coming...

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
(KJV)

The cleansing of the sanctuary is NOT given as PART of the Dan.8:13 events. Nor can anyone try to add it to the Dan.8:13 verse. The answer to Dan.8:13 is given FIRST (2300 days). And then the idea of the cleansing is mentioned after that.

It means from the time of Christ's coming to end the trodding back to the time of daily sacrifices = 2300 days. Per Rev.11:1-2 the Gentiles tread Jerusalem for 42 months (same as 1260 days). That IS the tribulation period, the same "time, times, and an half" given to the finish per the Dan.12:7 Scripture.

Daniel's "one week" equals two 1260 day periods per the Dan.9:27 verse. And the two periods equal 2520 days total. So 2300 days back from the end of the whole means 2520 minus 2300 = 220 days. The 220 days is about the time of the daily sacrifice going on. 220 minus the first 1260 day period of Dan.9:27 leaves 1040 days until the false one comes to end the sacrifice and place the abomination that makes desolate.

I find it absurd that you believe that because the SDA church is small (there is a smaller I have seen recorded), that they are a cult. That is a surefire way to reject Jesus Christ, if you were a Pharisee. Truth be known, every religion would have started off as "a cult". When Jesus started His ministry. When Martin Luther broke free from Rome. When the newer religions started coming up, finding truth in the Word. And no, i'm not a Seventh Day Adventist. That church is in apostasy - blatant apostasy, I might add. I just cannot follow your reasoning at all.

Okay Veteran, I posted pretty much the same thing, about how long until each of those things. And then afterwards it tells you 2300 days, and then the Sanctuary shall be cleansed, after the 2300 days (years).

Unfortunatly, we don't agree on the meaning at all. I cannot continue, until there is a Biblical Basis given to me for the split of a DEFINITE time prophecy, to an INDEFINITE time prophecy. You need to show me where God stated to split His definite time prophecy like this. I want the proof that 490 years given to Israel, actually means over 2000. Then, you bear the burden of proof, that no other definite time prophecies, are also indefinite.

 

[veteran]

I find it absurd that you believe that because the SDA church is small (there is a smaller I have seen recorded), that they are a cult. That is a surefire way to reject Jesus Christ, if you were a Pharisee. Truth be known, every religion would have started off as "a cult". When Jesus started His ministry. When Martin Luther broke free from Rome. When the newer religions started coming up, finding truth in the Word. And no, i'm not a Seventh Day Adventist. That church is in apostasy - blatant apostasy, I might add. I just cannot follow your reasoning at all.

Okay Veteran, I posted pretty much the same thing, about how long until each of those things. And then afterwards it tells you 2300 days, and then the Sanctuary shall be cleansed, after the 2300 days (years).

Unfortunatly, we don't agree on the meaning at all. I cannot continue, until there is a Biblical Basis given to me for the split of a DEFINITE time prophecy, to an INDEFINITE time prophecy. You need to show me where God stated to split His definite time prophecy like this. I want the proof that 490 years given to Israel, actually means over 2000. Then, you bear the burden of proof, that no other definite time prophecies, are also indefinite.

A cult doesn't have to be small to be cult. It's what doctrines that are taught that defines a group as a cult. For example, the lodges of Masonry is a 'cult', and it is widespread, just about in all nations upon the earth.

Following the teaches of one man can also be defined as a 'cult'. SDA has its roots from the personal teachings of Hiram Edson, James and Ellen White.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, I could give you an answer, though it wouldn't satisfy you but seeing as you've ignored every response I've made. I won't bother.

 

[Raeneske]

A cult doesn't have to be small to be cult. It's what doctrines that are taught that defines a group as a cult. For example, the lodges of Masonry is a 'cult', and it is widespread, just about in all nations upon the earth.

Following the teaches of one man can also be defined as a 'cult'. SDA has its roots from the personal teachings of Hiram Edson, James and Ellen White.

You just effectively called Jesus, and all Christians part of a cult. We follow the teachings of one man, though he be God.

As for personal teaching's i'd like a list of these "personal" teachings. I've investigated these supposed "personal teachings" myself. No, i'm not some great one, but i'm not gonna hold onto any false doctrines simply because it's passed through mainstream Christianity.

Hi Raeneske, I could give you an answer, though it wouldn't satisfy you but seeing as you've ignored every response I've made. I won't bother.

Hi Trekson. If you have addressed something to me, sorry I have not seen it. There is nothing on this page but this one quote. If you have truth to share, please post it. I want Biblical proof that Daniel's 70 weeks is not a definite time prophecy, that it means more than 490 years.

 

[veteran]

You just effectively called Jesus, and all Christians part of a cult. We follow the teachings of one man, though he be God.

No, I called what YOU"RE following associated with Ellen White a cult. She ain't Christ Jesus, nor a prophetess from God either. If she had been, then dates for events she said would happen would have come true!

 

[Raeneske]

No, I called what YOU"RE following associated with Ellen White a cult. She ain't Christ Jesus, nor a prophetess from God either. If she had been, then dates for events she said would happen would have come true!

I'm glad you are letting your true colors show in regards towards your disdain of Ellen White. Of course Ellen White is not Jesus, but you do err in stating she is not a prophetess.

That being said, no I don't think so about the false dates. There are lie out there spread about her, just like Satan blatantly lied about Jesus ressurecting. If Satan will lie about the Most Precious Jesus Christ, then Satan would lie about a mere human in a mere second. Period.

Do you have anything to add to this topic or post?

 

[veteran]

I'm glad you are letting your true colors show in regards towards your disdain of Ellen White. Of course Ellen White is not Jesus, but you do err in stating she is not a prophetess.

That being said, no I don't think so about the false dates. There are lie out there spread about her, just like Satan blatantly lied about Jesus ressurecting. If Satan will lie about the Most Precious Jesus Christ, then Satan would lie about a mere human in a mere second. Period.

Do you have anything to add to this topic or post?

The many failed prophecies of Ellen White reveals that her claimed "accompanying angel" was most like a familiar spirit!

http://www.inplainsi...e_prophecy.html

God tests His people, and she undoubtedly was a test upon the gullible who would rather listen to spirits that peep. But not everything she taught was wrong though, some of her historical writings about the early Church were very good. That still does not excuse her prophet claims.

 

[Raeneske]

The many failed prophecies of Ellen White reveals that her claimed "accompanying angel" was most like a familiar spirit!

http://www.inplainsi...e_prophecy.html

God tests His people, and she undoubtedly was a test upon the gullible who would rather listen to spirits that peep. But not everything she taught was wrong though, some of her historical writings about the early Church were very good. That still does not excuse her prophet claims.

God does indeed test His people:

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/1856visn.html

Concerning a conference in 1856 Ellen White declared: "I was shown the company present at the conference. Said the angel, 'Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.' " All who were alive then are now dead. Does this prediction mean that Mrs. White is a false prophet?


Numerous statements made by Ellen White in the decades following the 1856 vision demonstrate her clear understanding that there is an implied conditional quality to God's promises and threatenings--as Jeremiah declared--and that the conditional feature in forecasts regarding Christ's Advent involves the state of heart of Christ's followers. The following statement, written in 1883, is especially relevant on this point:

"The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the Word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. . . .

"It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed. God did not design that His people, Israel, should wander forty years in the wilderness. He promised to lead them directly to the land of Canaan, and establish them there a holy, healthy, people. But those to whom it was first preached, went not in 'because of unbelief.' Their hearts were filled with murmuring, rebellion, and hatred, and He could not fulfill His covenant with them.

"For forty years did unbelief, murmuring, and rebellion shut out ancient Israel from the land of Canaan. The same sins have delayed the entrance of modern Israel into the heavenly Canaan. In neither case were the promises of God at fault. It is the unbelief, the worldliness, unconsecration, and strife among the Lord's professed people that have kept us in this world of sin and sorrow so many years" (Ms 4, 1883, quoted in Evangelism, pp. 695, 696).

Not a failed prophecy my friend, but a reversal.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, Your quotes: ""It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed. God did not design that His people, Israel, should wander forty years in the wilderness. He promised to lead them directly to the land of Canaan, and establish them there a holy, healthy, people. But those to whom it was first preached, went not in 'because of unbelief.' Their hearts were filled with murmuring, rebellion, and hatred, and He could not fulfill His covenant with them.

"For forty years did unbelief, murmuring, and rebellion shut out ancient Israel from the land of Canaan. The same sins have delayed the entrance of modern Israel into the heavenly Canaan. In neither case were the promises of God at fault. It is the unbelief, the worldliness, unconsecration, and strife among the Lord's professed people that have kept us in this world of sin and sorrow so many years" (Ms 4, 1883, quoted in Evangelism, pp. 695, 696).

This is the same reasoning why God has delayed the 70th week. Scripture speaks over and over about "the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled". When it is fulfilled God will go back to His original timetable. The reason why the timeline was suspended is because of Israel's rejection of Christ as Messiah.

His purpose is to bring the nation of Israel, or at least His righteous remnant to the point of Zech. 12:10 - "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

The events of the 70th week will do that but not until then will all the prophecies of Dan. 9:24-27 be fulfilled. Is this "biblical" proof? Probably not, but the precedent for delay has been set as you pointed out in your quote.

 

[veteran]

Christ's second coming is NOT a conditional prophecy in God's Word. Like Jesus said, no man knows the day or hour, and that includes Ellen White who set a date for Christ's return and failed.

 

[Raeneske]

Hi Raeneske, Your quotes: ""It was not the will of God that the coming of Christ should be thus delayed. God did not design that His people, Israel, should wander forty years in the wilderness. He promised to lead them directly to the land of Canaan, and establish them there a holy, healthy, people. But those to whom it was first preached, went not in 'because of unbelief.' Their hearts were filled with murmuring, rebellion, and hatred, and He could not fulfill His covenant with them.

"For forty years did unbelief, murmuring, and rebellion shut out ancient Israel from the land of Canaan. The same sins have delayed the entrance of modern Israel into the heavenly Canaan. In neither case were the promises of God at fault. It is the unbelief, the worldliness, unconsecration, and strife among the Lord's professed people that have kept us in this world of sin and sorrow so many years" (Ms 4, 1883, quoted in Evangelism, pp. 695, 696).

This is the same reasoning why God has delayed the 70th week. Scripture speaks over and over about "the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled". When it is fulfilled God will go back to His original timetable. The reason why the timeline was suspended is because of Israel's rejection of Christ as Messiah.

His purpose is to bring the nation of Israel, or at least His righteous remnant to the point of Zech. 12:10 - "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

The events of the 70th week will do that but not until then will all the prophecies of Dan. 9:24-27 be fulfilled. Is this "biblical" proof? Probably not, but the precedent for delay has been set as you pointed out in your quote.

Thankyou for that post. Though I am sure we have different theology, I will try my best to point out what is being said.

Modern Israel, would be us, Christians. Since we are Christ's seed, we are Abrahams seed.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:29 KJV)

Also, we are grafted into Israel, with natural Israel. We are wild olives, being grafted into the natural.

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (Romans 11:13, 16-21 KJV)

It was God's purpose that Israel should lead out showing the gospel to the gentiles. But it was prophecied, that the sceptre would depart from Judah. It was not to do so, until Shiloh (as He was called back then) should come. The sceptre is not prophecied to come back to Judah, meaning Israel should once again regain their favored nation status. This is over for them, forever. They have given up their favored nation status, and are thus to remain desolate, save those who come to Jesus Christ.

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24 KJV)

This is the time of the Gentiles. In this prophecy, 70 AD is spoken of. When Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, Christians took this as the sign foretold by Christ, and fled. Their desolation was nigh (Jerusalem's) and they fled. Those were the days of vengence upon them, for their overspreading of abominations. They did fall by the edge of the sword, as the military destroyed them, and led away captive into all nations. Jerusalem shall be trodden down til the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Jerusalem, and the people, are trodden down still. Even the holocaust is proof of that fact. When the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled though, what is to happen? Is Jerusalem to get another chance, or, is the Second coming of Jesus to happen.

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Revelation 11:2 KJV)

The court, which is outside the temple is given to the Gentiles, that they should tread under foot for forty two months. 42 months is mentioned in other places, such as Daniel 7:25. It is mentioned as a time, times, and half a time. This is where the little horn rose, treaded down upon the the holy ones 42 months. The Romans are the gentiles which treaded down upon the holy city, Modern Israel - Spiritual Israel - for "42 months". After the fall of Pagan Rome, Papal Rome arose while there were 10 kingdoms, and destroyed 3, and took their huge role, which we commonly call the Dark Ages - God did not forget to record such a disatrous era - he made it plain, but the RCC seeks to hide their actions.

However, the time of the Gentiles, spoken of in Luke, is the time of us Christians. So, as I was saying before, It is not stated that Physical Israel shall come back into the picture, and accept the rejected Messiah. What is said is that they shall see Him who they have pierced, and mourn.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10 KJV)

When shall they look upon Him whim they have pierced, and mourn?

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Revelation 1:7 KJV)

When He comes in the clouds, and this is when everyone mourns. Now, here is the Final Clue. Does the Word of God state that Israel shall have finally come to repentance at the Coming of the Lord, or does it say something else will happen?

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Revelation 16:12-21 KJV)

Before the outpouring of the last plague, but after the outpouring of plague #6. The Great Day of the Lord, when he comes, and all wicked are slain, and they shall not be buried, as their bodies will be all over the place.

And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. (Jeremiah 25:33 KJV)

Israel, has not a second chance as a favored nation. Thus, when the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled, the Lord shall come.

Christ's second coming is NOT a conditional prophecy in God's Word. Like Jesus said, no man knows the day or hour, and that includes Ellen White who set a date for Christ's return and failed.

Ellen White did not set a date. The prophecy you pointed me to passed judgement (good or bad) upon the just and the wicked. Christ's Second Coming is not conditional, no. The timing of it however, yes. Hence, no more definite time prophecies.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, Here's how I see it.

Sometimes the identities of the church and Israel get misconstrued which can lead to false conclusions based on wrongful assumptions. There are two Israels in scripture. There is of course the physical nation of Israel and there is a spiritual Israel which is founded in faith and with the Abramic covenant. Gentile Christian believers, upon salvation, become a part of this spiritual Israel.

God made several covenants with the nation of Israel. Some, the church inherits by faith, others remain just for the nation of Israel. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. ( ex. Acts 2:17-21 & Joel 2:28-32 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.)

We inherit these promises the same way Abraham did in Gen. 15:6 through our faith and belief in our Redeemer and upon the righteousness of Christ we receive by faith at salvation. This is also where our “adoption” fits in. Rom. 8:15-17 - “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

　
Many people see the church becoming Israel in Romans 11 but I contend the opposite is true. This shows the separation of the two and reveals the destiny of the physical nation of Israel that will once again be based on their future understanding and utilizing the same faith that Abraham exhibited. Let’s look closer at Rom. 11.

There are two groups shown here, the wild olive shoots that are grafted into the cultivated tree (aka, the church) and the natural branches (Israel). The church will always be grafts. We will never, by osmosis, become natural branches but we receive all our rights via adoption as mentioned above.

Because of disobedience and lack of faith the natural branches were cut off so that we could be grafted in because of our faith and obedience. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, this grafting process will cease (vs. 25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”) and Christ will restore the natural branches to their rightful place (vs.24 “For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?”)

The word “all” in (vs.26 “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”) doesn’t necessarily mean the whole nation, but that at some point, all that will be left of Israel that enters into the millennium will be saved. Where will this group come from? I believe they will be the 144,000 (all born again or at least uncompromising, national Israelites) and the rest of the woman (believing or uncompromising Israel) who go into hiding for 3 ½ yrs., Rev. 12:14 - “The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

I believe that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of His chosen after the 70[sup]th[/sup] week.: Zech. 12:10 - “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

While we enter into the tree by faith as Abraham, that only entitles us to the spiritual promises, which are more than enough. However, the land promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and further explained in the latter chapters of Ezekial, remain for the saved, human Israeli remnant who undergo the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 that enters the millennium, (as well as some Gentile remnants). Some of the church will be ruling and reigning with Christ but I believe heaven will be just a thought away and we will travel back and forth quite frequently. The earth is not the home of the church, our home is in heaven until the NJ arrives.

I do not believe in the typical dispensationalism of pre-tribbers, however, in this one instance, the land inheritance of the nation of Israel, I do see a dispensation. Dispensationalists, as a rule, see a permanent separation between the church and Israel. I do not. I believe God’s plan is for an ultimate total unity between both parties and this is where I believe the future wedding has greater meaning.

 

[Rex]

AMen Trekson that was a refreshing read.
May God richly bless you

 

[Trekson]

Thanks Rex

 

[Raeneske]

Hi Raeneske, Here's how I see it.

Sometimes the identities of the church and Israel get misconstrued which can lead to false conclusions based on wrongful assumptions. There are two Israels in scripture. There is of course the physical nation of Israel and there is a spiritual Israel which is founded in faith and with the Abramic covenant. Gentile Christian believers, upon salvation, become a part of this spiritual Israel.

God made several covenants with the nation of Israel. Some, the church inherits by faith, others remain just for the nation of Israel. All the spiritual promises God made to Israel were fulfilled at Christ’s first coming. ( ex. Acts 2:17-21 & Joel 2:28-32 “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.)

We inherit these promises the same way Abraham did in Gen. 15:6 through our faith and belief in our Redeemer and upon the righteousness of Christ we receive by faith at salvation. This is also where our “adoption” fits in. Rom. 8:15-17 - “For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.”

　
Many people see the church becoming Israel in Romans 11 but I contend the opposite is true. This shows the separation of the two and reveals the destiny of the physical nation of Israel that will once again be based on their future understanding and utilizing the same faith that Abraham exhibited. Let’s look closer at Rom. 11.

There are two groups shown here, the wild olive shoots that are grafted into the cultivated tree (aka, the church) and the natural branches (Israel). The church will always be grafts. We will never, by osmosis, become natural branches but we receive all our rights via adoption as mentioned above.

Because of disobedience and lack of faith the natural branches were cut off so that we could be grafted in because of our faith and obedience. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, this grafting process will cease (vs. 25 “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.”) and Christ will restore the natural branches to their rightful place (vs.24 “For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?”)

The word “all” in (vs.26 “And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”) doesn’t necessarily mean the whole nation, but that at some point, all that will be left of Israel that enters into the millennium will be saved. Where will this group come from? I believe they will be the 144,000 (all born again or at least uncompromising, national Israelites) and the rest of the woman (believing or uncompromising Israel) who go into hiding for 3 ½ yrs., Rev. 12:14 - “The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

I believe that the Holy Spirit will open the eyes of His chosen after the 70[sup]th[/sup] week.: Zech. 12:10 - “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

While we enter into the tree by faith as Abraham, that only entitles us to the spiritual promises, which are more than enough. However, the land promises given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and further explained in the latter chapters of Ezekial, remain for the saved, human Israeli remnant who undergo the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25 that enters the millennium, (as well as some Gentile remnants). Some of the church will be ruling and reigning with Christ but I believe heaven will be just a thought away and we will travel back and forth quite frequently. The earth is not the home of the church, our home is in heaven until the NJ arrives.

I do not believe in the typical dispensationalism of pre-tribbers, however, in this one instance, the land inheritance of the nation of Israel, I do see a dispensation. Dispensationalists, as a rule, see a permanent separation between the church and Israel. I do not. I believe God’s plan is for an ultimate total unity between both parties and this is where I believe the future wedding has greater meaning.

Trekson, thankyou for you post. And not a bad post at all. Allow me to try to explain a couple things:

Romans 11, is where we shall look.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (Romans 11:1-5 KJV)

Okay, so remember when Elijah thought he was the only Israelite left that had not bowed a knee to Baal? But God made known to him, that it was not just him, but He had reserved 7000 to himself? This situation that Paul is in shows how it relates to Israel presently. There are still some Israelites, that will turn to Christ, that just have not heard the Gospel in it's purity. This is not a big future event. Notice what Paul says: At this present time there is a remnant, according to the election of grace. There have been since the rejection of Israel of a nation, Israelites who have accepted the Gospel according to the grace of God. Notice - they are natural Israelites, but it matters not. They must become Spiritual Israel, though they are natural Israel.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Romans 11:7-12 KJV)

Physical Israel has obtained the election of grace, and the rest of them were blinded. Paul, the other Apostles, Mary, etc have obtained the election of grace. But the rest of physical Israel were blinded. But those that were blinded, have not stumbled so far, that they cannot come to repentance. They have stumbled, so that Salvation might come to us, the Gentiles. With that being said, when can Israel come to repentance? At this present time, as Paul said. The Israelites who can come to repentance, the remnant of Israel, there chance is right now. Not Israel as a nation, they have lost that. Only the remnant shall be saved. This way, all of Israel shall be saved - not literally all Israel, but of course, all the obediant of Israel who shall accept Christ as Lord. And as Paul said, at this present time, is when it must be done, just like at the present time in his day when there were remnant Israelites who needed the Gospel.

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (Romans 11:13-26 KJV)

Israel prided themselves of being the chosen nation of God. They lost this however, and now the Gentiles can be chosen children of God. This rejection as a nation, is to provoke them to jealously. It should come as a blow to them, that they shall not be favoured anymore, always protected, always sought out, given blessings. As a Christian, to lose that favor of God would tear us down, we cherish God, and this hope we have. This is what is supposed to happen to Israel, this is their catalyst, that they may repent. They, the natural branches, have been cut off. We, the wild olives, have been grafted into this natural tree. As a whole, we are all called Israel. This is where physical, and spiritual Israel meet, and are as one. Physical and Spiritual Israel, make up the Church of Christ. So, all of Israel, shall be saved. All of the remnant of physical Israel, and all of spiritual Israel, shall be saved.

Now, the 144,000.

Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Revelation 7:3-9 KJV)

Now this sealing, does not mean physical Israel. It can mean that some physical Israelites will be part of this number, that is believable, but though tribes of Israel are mentioned, it is Spiritual Israel. This is cloaked, as many other symbols in Revelation are cloaked. As shown repeatedly throughout your post and mine, "Israel" does not always mean physical Israel.This is one of those cases.

Now, as for my topical post, between the Mark of the Beast and the Seal of God, this is one major reason we believe the Sabbath is the Seal of God:

Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord : whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. (Exodus 31:13-17 KJV)

As shown in Deuteronomy 6:6-8, 11:18-19, Exodus 13:7-9, 15-16, a Sign upon the hands, and mark upon a forehead was never meant to be taken literal. Those verses uncloak Revelation in regards to a sign upon the hands and forehead, and for the seal of God. I know there is much disagreement here at times with me, but I cannot assume that the cloaked book of Revelation means a literal mark, this one time. That is actually very contrary to studying what the Bible itself identifies as the meaning upon a mark on forehead and sign upon hands. It's no mistake that God chose 4 instances, to use the same language, that is used in other parts of the Bible. It is spiritual.

Now, this spiritual mark also has to be within Biblical Juriprudence. 666 cannot be the Mark, as Revelation splits that up.

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (Revelation 13:17 KJV)

All three of these are seperate, and are cloaked, just like many other things in Revelation. Wherefore 666 is not the mark, it can only be the number of the beast. Please think how very literal mankind takes this. The mark is usually taken as a literal tattoo, the name, is usually a literal name stamped, and the number is taken as a number stamped upon you. This is all too literal.

The Bible uncloaks these hidden meanings.

1) The Mark is not a literal mark upon you, but a spiritual mark on the frontlets of your eyes, and bound upon your hand. (Exodus and Deuteronomy)
2) The name is not his name stamped upon you. The name is the character of the beast. (Exodus 34:5-7, John 17:6, Exodus 23:21)
3) The number is not a number stamped upon you, but the number of the man of the beast, at the head of the beast. (Revelation 13:18)

Revelation 14 talks of an angel's message. The message warns about worshipping God, and receiving the Mark of the Beast. It is no mistake, that prophetic language in Revelation 14:6-7 utters the same words found in Exodus 20:8-11. The Message is very clear, worship God, who created the heavens, earth, etc. Revelation then confirms that the Saints keep the commandments of God with Revelation 14:12. And to even further confirm that this is the actual sign of God between His people and Him, the Seal, we see Exodus 31:13-17. As God speaks to Israel in the past, and throughout Israel all down the ages of Earth's History - "Keep my Sabbath. It is the sign between you and I. This is my perpetual covenant with all of thee Israel, for the world shall know that you are mine, and I am thine. Whosoever shall profane my Sabbath, shall not live". For we know, the age of stoning is out, but "the wages of sin is death" is still very real to God. And as the scriptures saith, those transgressors, are now reserved unto judgement.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. The land promises were for physical Israel, not spiritual. We will have no need for earthly things. I believe the "mark" is literal and there is far less "cloaking" and symbolism in Revelations than a lot of people want to believe. The church is not part of the 144,000. Try interpreting Revelations literally and you'll come closer to the truth, imo. However, seeing as you brought sabbath-keeping up I thought I would share my beliefs on that with you.

Seventh Day Adventists and Messianic Jews are two of the many denominations that erroneously teach that proper Sabbath Keeping is vital to ones' salvation. They believe in observing the Sabbath the traditional Jewish way which begins at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday and restricts the amount and types of daily activities that they can do. They argue that the commandment to "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" (Ex. 20:8) was one of the ten commandments and if we obey the other nine commandments then we should honor the Sabbath in the old way as well.

What was the original purpose of the Sabbath? It was to give man a day of rest from his labors as exampled by God when He rested on the seventh day of creation. When God told Moses to "keep it holy", He was expanding it to include worship of God as well on that day of rest. Throughout the Old Testament years the Pharisees increasingly made keeping the Sabbath very restrictive, for example, by limiting the number of steps you could walk.

Jesus, much to the consternation of the Pharisees, seemed to enjoy flaunting the Sabbath.

Matt 12:2-8: "When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." 3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." (NIV)

Matt 12:10-12: "and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" 11 He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." (NIV)

John 5:10-11: and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat." 11 But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk." (NIV)

John 5:17-18: Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (NIV)

We can see by this last verse that God and Jesus are always working. Apparently they do not take a Sabbath rest. It would be a sad thing indeed if God closed up shop on the seventh day and refused to hear and answer prayers because He was resting. According to Strong's Concordance the word "holy" is defined as: "To be clean, to consecrate, dedicate, to keep, prepare, proclaim and to purify and sanctify oneself."

Let's take a look at what the bible has to say about these aspects of our holiness.
1. Clean - Jesus says, "John 15:3 - "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." (NIV)
2. Consecrate - Heb 10:20 - "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;" (KJV) Through His death we are consecrated unto God.
3. Dedicate - As Christians we dedicate our lives to His service.
4. Keep - Phil 4:7 - "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (KJV)
5. Prepare - Heb 10:8-10: "First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (NIV)
Jesus prepared the way for us! We have been made holy by His sacrifice. Nothing we do will make us any holier than what Christ has done for us. When we stand before God, he isn't going to look at our works or whether we kept the law or not regarding our salvation. The only thing He will look for is whether or not we have the blood of His Son covering us, for our righteousness (our efforts to be law keepers) are as filthy rags before Him.
6. Proclaim - By our living testimony we proclaim to the world our faith in Christ and every time we witness we are proclaiming the gospel.
7. Purify - Titus 2:14 - "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (KJV)
8. Sanctify - Heb 13:12 - "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate." (KJV)
Christ has accomplished all that was necessary to make us holy. Observing a day set aside for His honor can bring about nothing that hasn't already been done for us. The problem many people have is in not recognizing that in Heb 4:1-10: God redefined the Sabbath.
1 "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his." (NIV)

As verse 10 points out we enter that Sabbath rest automatically when we believe in Him and make Him Lord of our life. Jesus, through His life and death did everything for us spiritually that the Sabbath was supposed to do. That is why He continually stated that "the Son of Man was Lord of the Sabbath." It is in and through Him that we rest and keep the Sabbath. Those who make a big deal about setting aside a certain day for worship are proclaiming that what Christ did for us wasn't good enough. They are saying that the Sabbath becomes holy through our observance of it and physically observing it the way the law originally intended. They have not yet realized that the New Covenant did away with all the past observances.

Christ gave us two laws to obey: Matt 22:36-40: "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (KJV)

These two commandments are the only ones we as Christians need to concern ourselves with. The love we have for God and each other fulfills the requirements of the law as Paul explains in Rom 13:8-10: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (NIV)

If we obey the law of love for God and each other then we are fulfilling the requirements of the Sabbath rest and have no need of an additional day. To believe otherwise would be like telling God, "Ok, I followed you and obeyed you all week long but now because it's the Sabbath day, I really mean it this time." People who are Sabbath-keepers also fail to realize that our living bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We now have God residing within us. We are the 24/7 residence of He who dwelt in the inner sanctuary of the Holy of Holies. That makes us the temple so how can going to another building on a special day make us any more holier? What can a calendar day do for us that the Holy Spirit residing within us can't do? My answer is…absolutely nothing!

 

[veteran]

Ellen White did not set a date. The prophecy you pointed me to passed judgement (good or bad) upon the just and the wicked. Christ's Second Coming is not conditional, no. The timing of it however, yes. Hence, no more definite time prophecies.

Recommended listening of exposing Ellen White by ex-followers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH3MojgOIvk&feature=related

 

[Raeneske]

Hi Raeneske, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. The land promises were for physical Israel, not spiritual. We will have no need for earthly things. I believe the "mark" is literal and there is far less "cloaking" and symbolism in Revelations than a lot of people want to believe. The church is not part of the 144,000. Try interpreting Revelations literally and you'll come closer to the truth, imo. However, seeing as you brought sabbath-keeping up I thought I would share my beliefs on that with you.

Seventh Day Adventists and Messianic Jews are two of the many denominations that erroneously teach that proper Sabbath Keeping is vital to ones' salvation. They believe in observing the Sabbath the traditional Jewish way which begins at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday and restricts the amount and types of daily activities that they can do. They argue that the commandment to "remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" (Ex. 20:8) was one of the ten commandments and if we obey the other nine commandments then we should honor the Sabbath in the old way as well.

What was the original purpose of the Sabbath? It was to give man a day of rest from his labors as exampled by God when He rested on the seventh day of creation. When God told Moses to "keep it holy", He was expanding it to include worship of God as well on that day of rest. Throughout the Old Testament years the Pharisees increasingly made keeping the Sabbath very restrictive, for example, by limiting the number of steps you could walk.

Jesus, much to the consternation of the Pharisees, seemed to enjoy flaunting the Sabbath.

Matt 12:2-8: "When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." 3 He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." (NIV)

Matt 12:10-12: "and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?" 11 He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." (NIV)

John 5:10-11: and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat." 11 But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk." (NIV)

John 5:17-18: Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18 For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (NIV)

We can see by this last verse that God and Jesus are always working. Apparently they do not take a Sabbath rest. It would be a sad thing indeed if God closed up shop on the seventh day and refused to hear and answer prayers because He was resting. According to Strong's Concordance the word "holy" is defined as: "To be clean, to consecrate, dedicate, to keep, prepare, proclaim and to purify and sanctify oneself."

Let's take a look at what the bible has to say about these aspects of our holiness.
1. Clean - Jesus says, "John 15:3 - "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." (NIV)
2. Consecrate - Heb 10:20 - "By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;" (KJV) Through His death we are consecrated unto God.
3. Dedicate - As Christians we dedicate our lives to His service.
4. Keep - Phil 4:7 - "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (KJV)
5. Prepare - Heb 10:8-10: "First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (NIV)
Jesus prepared the way for us! We have been made holy by His sacrifice. Nothing we do will make us any holier than what Christ has done for us. When we stand before God, he isn't going to look at our works or whether we kept the law or not regarding our salvation. The only thing He will look for is whether or not we have the blood of His Son covering us, for our righteousness (our efforts to be law keepers) are as filthy rags before Him.
6. Proclaim - By our living testimony we proclaim to the world our faith in Christ and every time we witness we are proclaiming the gospel.
7. Purify - Titus 2:14 - "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (KJV)
8. Sanctify - Heb 13:12 - "Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate." (KJV)
Christ has accomplished all that was necessary to make us holy. Observing a day set aside for His honor can bring about nothing that hasn't already been done for us. The problem many people have is in not recognizing that in Heb 4:1-10: God redefined the Sabbath.
1 "Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his." (NIV)

As verse 10 points out we enter that Sabbath rest automatically when we believe in Him and make Him Lord of our life. Jesus, through His life and death did everything for us spiritually that the Sabbath was supposed to do. That is why He continually stated that "the Son of Man was Lord of the Sabbath." It is in and through Him that we rest and keep the Sabbath. Those who make a big deal about setting aside a certain day for worship are proclaiming that what Christ did for us wasn't good enough. They are saying that the Sabbath becomes holy through our observance of it and physically observing it the way the law originally intended. They have not yet realized that the New Covenant did away with all the past observances.

Christ gave us two laws to obey: Matt 22:36-40: "Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (KJV)

These two commandments are the only ones we as Christians need to concern ourselves with. The love we have for God and each other fulfills the requirements of the law as Paul explains in Rom 13:8-10: "Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (NIV)

If we obey the law of love for God and each other then we are fulfilling the requirements of the Sabbath rest and have no need of an additional day. To believe otherwise would be like telling God, "Ok, I followed you and obeyed you all week long but now because it's the Sabbath day, I really mean it this time." People who are Sabbath-keepers also fail to realize that our living bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We now have God residing within us. We are the 24/7 residence of He who dwelt in the inner sanctuary of the Holy of Holies. That makes us the temple so how can going to another building on a special day make us any more holier? What can a calendar day do for us that the Holy Spirit residing within us can't do? My answer is…absolutely nothing!

God made the Seventh Day Holy, directly at creation.

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (Genesis 2:1-3 KJV)

Jesus did not break the Sabbath. It is impossible for Him to have done so - for if He did, He would not have been sinless. The "work" that was being done by Jesus and His Father is Spiritual. Our Father has nothing against the spiritual upbringing of the Kingdom.

Jesus showed it was in absolute harmony to do spiritual "work" on the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a Holy Day. There is no sin recognized in doing this. What is to be put down, is the secular working on the Sabbath. He also showed how on the Sabbath, it is in harmony to heal a person. All of this done, was for the spiritual upbringing of people. Contrary to popular belief in their day, healing someone on the Sabbath was completely permissable. The Sabbath Day is a day of rest, physical and spiritual healing. Jesus never broke the Sabbath, but he showed the legalistic Pharisees how wrong they were with their laws imposed upon people.

Christ did accomplish for us what was needed to make us Holy. But where did that mean, that a law was to be forsaken when He came? We still fast, we still try not to lie. These things are us striving to stay in harmony with our God.

We as Christians are on pretty much the opposite end of the spectrum (sp?) concerning the Sabbath. Where as they went too far, making it legalistic, now we as Christians just pretty much believe we don't have to keep it at all.

Hebrews does not redefine the Sabbath, but Hebrews shows the importance of the Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:8 says that if Jesus had given us rest, wouldn't he also have spoken of another day?

There are two answers here, and only one is correct:

a) Jesus did not give us rest, therefore he did not speak of another day.

B) Jesus gave us rest, so wouldn't he have spoken of another day?

What do they mean by another day? Hebrews 4:4 that When God was speaking, he was speaking according to the seventh day. So, Jesus did give us rest, as any Christian will attest to. Wouldn't he have spoken of another day besides the 7th Day Sabbath? Yes, he would have, but He did not.

Hebrews 4:9 says there remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. The word remaineth there denote that something that was there before, still is. But, look at the word rest. That word rest is originally the Greek Word, Sabbatismos, which means - A keeping Sabbath.

Hebrews 4 shows the great importance of keeping the Sabbath. By not keeping it, we are examples of unbelief in God, rather than belief. The Sabbath Day sets apart the Christians from the World. Just like in the Jewish Day, it was to seperate the real Jew, from the Pagan. Many Christians today do not enter into the rest, of keeping the Sabbath, because of their unbelief. Their unbelief in God's requirements, their unbelief in it's importance, their unbelief in the blessedness and the holiness of this day. It is unbelief that keeps Christians from Sabbath Keeping.

The two new laws that Jesus gave, are summaries, as Romans 13:9-10 shows. If you love your neighbor, you will not break Commandments 5-10. If you look at those commandments, I think you'll agree. Where, if you love God, you will not break Commandments 1-4. People are very disagreeable about four, but God's Word is explicit about keeping 1 commandment of the Perfect Law of Liberty, you are to keep them all.

Also, no offence, but that statement is erronous. Did Christ, who walked perfectly, show that we follow God any less the other days of the week, and more on one day? No, he showed we are always to follow God, and we are to rest when He says rest.

As for "Making me holier" It is how we know it is God that sanctifies us. But much happens on the Sabbath Day. For example, in the Old Testament, the showbread was changed each and every Sabbath. What does bread represent to us? The Word of God, Jesus Christ. This is not to say Jesus changes, because Remember, the Lord does not change. The changing of the showbread each and every Sabbath represents the changes each and every Sabbath, to learn something new in the Word of God.

As said, the Day of the Week does matter, else God would not have showed us in the past, How He refused to rain food on the Sabbath, and how he preserved the double portion collected the day before.

It is very strange, Christians value days like Christmas and Easter, which aren't even Christian and are of Pagan origins, but when it comes to the Sabbath Day, a day in which God ordained for mankind to rest, statements are made like, "What can a calender day do for us". You may not believe it yet, but, Save your Eternal Salvation.

To anyone who seeks proof regarding these prophecies, I can send you a bunch of articles via PM if you would like to see just how far we are coming along.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Raeneske, This is something I wrote a while ago and it was "personalized" for a specific person. Instead of changing all that I just thought I'd let you know that when the words "you" or "your" are used it is not speaking to you personally.

This whole Sabbath issue was settled long ago at the Jerusalem council as written of in Acts 15. The question at hand is given in vs. 5 - “Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” Then Peter, Paul and Barnabas spoke but it was James who proves gentiles are not under the law (vss.14-20). The result of this council is found in vs. 20 and again in vs.29 - “You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.” Notice that there is absolutely no mention of Sabbath keeping because they knew that it was a Jewish custom, soon to fade away.

All this talk and concern about where and when to celebrate the Sabbath is a complete waste of time and is offensive to God and a problem created by the devil acting as an angel of light to ensnare God’s elect. I’m going to tell it to you straight out! The Holy Spirit isn’t telling anyone when, where and how to celebrate the Sabbath because the Sabbath is obsolete!! You are totally missing the whole point of what God did for us through Christ. Your foundation is based upon the sands of the law and not the rock, that is Christ, the chief cornerstone. Here’s a fact! The spiritual aspects of Christianity are as far removed from the law as the physical earth was vastly changed between the times Noah entered the ark and when Noah left the ark!

There are two points in history where this radical change began. The first was upon the death of Christ when God tore the veil that separated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the tabernacle from the top down. The veil being torn from top to bottom is a fact of history. The profound significance of this event is explained in detail in Hebrews. The things of the temple were shadows of things to come, and they all ultimately point us to Jesus Christ. He was the veil to the Holy of Holies, and through His death the faithful now have free access to God.

“And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom” (Matt. 27:50-51a). This has great significance for the believer. It signals the tearing and ending of the contract that was known as the old covenant that signified that man was separated from God by sin. Only the high priest was permitted to pass beyond this veil once each year (Ex. 30:10; Heb. 9:7) to enter into God's presence for all of Israel and make atonement for their sins (Lev. 16).

Secondly, when Jesus cried “it is finished” as He died, He was referencing two things at once. The first was the job He came to earth to do was finished and the second was He put an end to all aspects of the law and the contract known as the old covenant. The Israelites broke this covenant millennia ago rendering it null and void, but God in His faithfulness kept up His end of the bargain until the appointed time even though His wife (Israel) committed adultery as typified by the wife of Hosea. The law was always for a specific people for a specific duration of time.

So, what do we make of this? What significance does this torn veil have for us today? Above all, the tearing of the veil at the moment of Jesus' death dramatically symbolized that His sacrifice, the shedding of His own blood, was a sufficient atonement for sins. It signified that now the way into the Holy of Holies and to the presence of God was open for all people, for all time, both Jew and Gentile.

When Jesus died, the veil was torn, and God moved out of that place never again to dwell in a temple made with hands (Acts 17:24). God was through with that temple and its religious system, and the temple and Jerusalem were left “desolate” (destroyed by the Romans) in A.D. 70, just as Jesus prophesied in Luke 13:35. As long as the temple stood, it signified the continuation of the Old Covenant. Heb. 9:8-9 refers to the age that was passing away as the new covenant was being established (Heb. 8:13).

Now Christ is our superior High Priest, and as believers in His finished work, we partake of His better priesthood. We can now enter the Holy of Holies through Him. Heb. 10:19-20 says that the faithful enter into the sanctuary by the “blood of Jesus, by the new and living way which he opened for us through the veil, that is, through his flesh.”

The veil in the temple was a constant reminder that sin renders humanity unfit for the presence of God. The fact that the sin offering was offered annually and countless other sacrifices repeated daily showed graphically that sin could not truly be atoned for or erased by mere animal sacrifices. Jesus Christ, through His death, has removed the barriers between God and man, and now we may approach Him with confidence and boldness (Heb. 4:14-16). We don’t have to wait for the proper Sabbath to do so.

The death of Christ takes us into the presence of the LORD Himself. The shadows and types of the Tabernacle, Temple and Old Covenant were fulfilled and turned into substance. There is absolutely no part of the law that is yet to be fulfilled.
Heb. 8:13 (NIV) - “By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.” This is speaking of the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Without a temple, the law has no purpose, for Christ became our living temple and we are temples of the Holy Spirit in our own right with a 24/7 access to God that the previously was restricted to just the Sabbath and by one man, the high priest.

I’m going to say this plain and simple. Almost every single aspect of the old covenant is obsolete except the unfulfilled prophecies that were promised to the descendants of the children of Israel as part of the covenant. The dietary laws, the sin laws, the civil laws and yes even the ten commandments!! However, in His creation of the New Covenant, God carried forward certain aspects of the old law and sort of grandfathered them into the new covenant. These would be the laws of sin and death and the aspects of the ten commandments that Christ gave us in Matt. 22:37-40 - “Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Notice, He didn’t specify Sabbath keeping.

　
To do what He had to do, Christ was born, lived and died under the law but don’t confuse the way He had to live His life with the reason for His death. He had to live and die under the law so that the law could be put to death with His sacrifice. We are not saved by His perfect life, we are saved by His perfect death!

The second aspect of history that changed the spiritual world forever was the Day of Pentecost. Pentecost was the literal fulfillment of what the Feast of Weeks typified. *This feast was to occur fifty days after Firstfruits which typified His resurrection. On this occasion, the children of Israel were to bring in their first fruits of their wheat harvest just as on the feast of first fruits they brought in their barley harvest. They also had to bring in two loaves of bread, baked with fine flour and leaven.

Pentecost signifies the birthday of God’s church. He rose from the grave, spent 40 days in His post-resurrection ministry, ascended up to heaven and then 10 days later, the 50[sup]th[/sup] day, the Holy Spirit came down. Acts 1:3-4. The two loaves represented Jew and Gentile now one in the Messiah with the coming of the Holy Spirit. The leaven signifies that the believers have yet to be glorified. There is still sin within the church. (* excerpts taken from Marv Rosenthal’s, The Feasts of Israel )

If I were you, I’d spend more time worrying about the Judaizing of Christianity. I don’t know why people feel that christian jews have more insight into the word than we do. Besides, being the nation that brought us Christ, their main claim to fame is screwing up their relationship with God for literally thousands of years. Judaizing affects your personal walk with God, here and now.

I realize that you may have good intentions in trying to keep the Sabbath but y’all know where that road leads. Don’t you realize by trying to keep Sabbath you’re not obeying God, you’re dissing Him. You’re telling Him, “sorry Lord, but a 24/7/365 access isn’t good enough for me. I need to re-establish that veil that you tore asunder. I know I’m your temple and your Holy Spirit resides in me, but that’s not enough. I need to live by your law which your Son died to eliminate. Thanks for grace and freedom and everything but I’d rather live by your law even though your servant Paul plainly showed in Eph. 2:15 -“…by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace…” and Gal. 4:4-5 - “But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship” If we are redeemed from the law we are no longer under the law and this means the whole law not just part of it.

By trying to keep the Sabbath we are entangling ourselves again with the yoke of bondage that Christ died to set us free from. Gal. 5:1. When we celebrate the Sabbath, “Today” as Heb. 4 teaches, we are “resting” in our right relationship with our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ and that’s all God desires of us.

Do you really think God is up in heaven pacing back and forth, wringing His hands and tearing His garments over whether or not His children are keeping the Sabbath correctly or not? He doesn’t care one wit because it was resolved a long time ago, the Sabbath is not for gentile believers and hasn’t been for the Jews since 70 AD. It seems like you’re trying to act like a child of divorced parents. We’re with one parent six days a week but the seventh is reserved for our Father. That’s the day we get visiting rights with Him or He gets visiting rights with us because we offer Him this one day!! Really!!



　

 

[Raeneske]

Hi Raeneske, This is something I wrote a while ago and it was "personalized" for a specific person. Instead of changing all that I just thought I'd let you know that when the words "you" or "your" are used it is not speaking to you personally.

This whole Sabbath issue was settled long ago at the Jerusalem council as written of in Acts 15. The question at hand is given in vs. 5 - “Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” Then Peter, Paul and Barnabas spoke but it was James who proves gentiles are not under the law (vss.14-20). The result of this council is found in vs. 20 and again in vs.29 - “You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.” Notice that there is absolutely no mention of Sabbath keeping because they knew that it was a Jewish custom, soon to fade away.

All this talk and concern about where and when to celebrate the Sabbath is a complete waste of time and is offensive to God and a problem created by the devil acting as an angel of light to ensnare God’s elect. I’m going to tell it to you straight out! The Holy Spirit isn’t telling anyone when, where and how to celebrate the Sabbath because the Sabbath is obsolete!! You are totally missing the whole point of what God did for us through Christ. Your foundation is based upon the sands of the law and not the rock, that is Christ, the chief cornerstone. Here’s a fact! The spiritual aspects of Christianity are as far removed from the law as the physical earth was vastly changed between the times Noah entered the ark and when Noah left the ark!

There are two points in history where this radical change began. The first was upon the death of Christ when God tore the veil that separated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the tabernacle from the top down. The veil being torn from top to bottom is a fact of history. The profound significance of this event is explained in detail in Hebrews. The things of the temple were shadows of things to come, and they all ultimately point us to Jesus Christ. He was the veil to the Holy of Holies, and through His death the faithful now have free access to God.

“And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom” (Matt. 27:50-51a). This has great significance for the believer. It signals the tearing and ending of the contract that was known as the old covenant that signified that man was separated from God by sin. Only the high priest was permitted to pass beyond this veil once each year (Ex. 30:10; Heb. 9:7) to enter into God's presence for all of Israel and make atonement for their sins (Lev. 16).

Secondly, when Jesus cried “it is finished” as He died, He was referencing two things at once. The first was the job He came to earth to do was finished and the second was He put an end to all aspects of the law and the contract known as the old covenant. The Israelites broke this covenant millennia ago rendering it null and void, but God in His faithfulness kept up His end of the bargain until the appointed time even though His wife (Israel) committed adultery as typified by the wife of Hosea. The law was always for a specific people for a specific duration of time.

So, what do we make of this? What significance does this torn veil have for us today? Above all, the tearing of the veil at the moment of Jesus' death dramatically symbolized that His sacrifice, the shedding of His own blood, was a sufficient atonement for sins. It signified that now the way into the Holy of Holies and to the presence of God was open for all people, for all time, both Jew and Gentile.

When Jesus died, the veil was torn, and God moved out of that place never again to dwell in a temple made with hands (Acts 17:24). God was through with that temple and its religious system, and the temple and Jerusalem were left “desolate” (destroyed by the Romans) in A.D. 70, just as Jesus prophesied in Luke 13:35. As long as the temple stood, it signified the continuation of the Old Covenant. Heb. 9:8-9 refers to the age that was passing away as the new covenant was being established (Heb. 8:13).

Now Christ is our superior High Priest, and as believers in His finished work, we partake of His better priesthood. We can now enter the Holy of Holies through Him. Heb. 10:19-20 says that the faithful enter into the sanctuary by the “blood of Jesus, by the new and living way which he opened for us through the veil, that is, through his flesh.”

The veil in the temple was a constant reminder that sin renders humanity unfit for the presence of God. The fact that the sin offering was offered annually and countless other sacrifices repeated daily showed graphically that sin could not truly be atoned for or erased by mere animal sacrifices. Jesus Christ, through His death, has removed the barriers between God and man, and now we may approach Him with confidence and boldness (Heb. 4:14-16). We don’t have to wait for the proper Sabbath to do so.

The death of Christ takes us into the presence of the LORD Himself. The shadows and types of the Tabernacle, Temple and Old Covenant were fulfilled and turned into substance. There is absolutely no part of the law that is yet to be fulfilled.
Heb. 8:13 (NIV) - “By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.” This is speaking of the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. Without a temple, the law has no purpose, for Christ became our living temple and we are temples of the Holy Spirit in our own right with a 24/7 access to God that the previously was restricted to just the Sabbath and by one man, the high priest.

I’m going to say this plain and simple. Almost every single aspect of the old covenant is obsolete except the unfulfilled prophecies that were promised to the descendants of the children of Israel as part of the covenant. The dietary laws, the sin laws, the civil laws and yes even the ten commandments!! However, in His creation of the New Covenant, God carried forward certain aspects of the old law and sort of grandfathered them into the new covenant. These would be the laws of sin and death and the aspects of the ten commandments that Christ gave us in Matt. 22:37-40 - “Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Notice, He didn’t specify Sabbath keeping.

　
To do what He had to do, Christ was born, lived and died under the law but don’t confuse the way He had to live His life with the reason for His death. He had to live and die under the law so that the law could be put to death with His sacrifice. We are not saved by His perfect life, we are saved by His perfect death!

The second aspect of history that changed the spiritual world forever was the Day of Pentecost. Pentecost was the literal fulfillment of what the Feast of Weeks typified. *This feast was to occur fifty days after Firstfruits which typified His resurrection. On this occasion, the children of Israel were to bring in their first fruits of their wheat harvest just as on the feast of first fruits they brought in their barley harvest. They also had to bring in two loaves of bread, baked with fine flour and leaven.

Pentecost signifies the birthday of God’s church. He rose from the grave, spent 40 days in His post-resurrection ministry, ascended up to heaven and then 10 days later, the 50[sup]th[/sup] day, the Holy Spirit came down. Acts 1:3-4. The two loaves represented Jew and Gentile now one in the Messiah with the coming of the Holy Spirit. The leaven signifies that the believers have yet to be glorified. There is still sin within the church. (* excerpts taken from Marv Rosenthal’s, The Feasts of Israel )

If I were you, I’d spend more time worrying about the Judaizing of Christianity. I don’t know why people feel that christian jews have more insight into the word than we do. Besides, being the nation that brought us Christ, their main claim to fame is screwing up their relationship with God for literally thousands of years. Judaizing affects your personal walk with God, here and now.

I realize that you may have good intentions in trying to keep the Sabbath but y’all know where that road leads. Don’t you realize by trying to keep Sabbath you’re not obeying God, you’re dissing Him. You’re telling Him, “sorry Lord, but a 24/7/365 access isn’t good enough for me. I need to re-establish that veil that you tore asunder. I know I’m your temple and your Holy Spirit resides in me, but that’s not enough. I need to live by your law which your Son died to eliminate. Thanks for grace and freedom and everything but I’d rather live by your law even though your servant Paul plainly showed in Eph. 2:15 -“…by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace…” and Gal. 4:4-5 - “But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship” If we are redeemed from the law we are no longer under the law and this means the whole law not just part of it.

By trying to keep the Sabbath we are entangling ourselves again with the yoke of bondage that Christ died to set us free from. Gal. 5:1. When we celebrate the Sabbath, “Today” as Heb. 4 teaches, we are “resting” in our right relationship with our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ and that’s all God desires of us.

Do you really think God is up in heaven pacing back and forth, wringing His hands and tearing His garments over whether or not His children are keeping the Sabbath correctly or not? He doesn’t care one wit because it was resolved a long time ago, the Sabbath is not for gentile believers and hasn’t been for the Jews since 70 AD. It seems like you’re trying to act like a child of divorced parents. We’re with one parent six days a week but the seventh is reserved for our Father. That’s the day we get visiting rights with Him or He gets visiting rights with us because we offer Him this one day!! Really!!



　

Okay, I'll keep that in mind!

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, (Acts 15:24, 25 KJV)

This is not a Sabbath question, notice the errors the church was having. That they must be circumcised, and keep the law. Are they referring to the 10 Commandments? Where do the 10 Commandments make mention of circumcision? They were referring to outside the 10 Commandment Law. I actually see people post this a lot, and I cannot understand one thing:

If the gentiles were commanded only to abstain from food to idols, blood, meat of a strangled animal, and sexual immorality, where are the rest of the commands? Are they not ordered to be temperate, love one another, etc. These are not the only things the gentiles were commanded, this just happens to be a few things they were commanded.

Next, God did not declare the Sabbath obselete. Yes, he declares sabbaths obselete, but was he referring to the Sabbath Day Commadment? We look, we see the same chapter talks about meat or drink or sabbath day. Which "sabbaths" were related to the "meat and drink" better known as "meat and drink offerings"? Leviticus 23:23-37 shows the yearly sabbaths which were meat and drink offerings. And then, verse 38 points out that they are to do those sabbaths besides the Sabbath of the Lord, meaning, as well as the Lord's Holy Day (Isaiah 58:13). Even Moses showed there was a split set difference between the two. One group was to happen yearly, which were added because of sin, and the other which is the Sabbath Day, which was sanctified (set apart for holy use) in Genesis before the fall of man (Genesis 2:1-3). The 7th Day Sabbath, and the yearly sabbaths, "feast days", are of different natures. It's the same word being used to describe two different things, but for some reason, we take the whole thing, and throw both away, when that is not what scripture is saying if we pay close attention to the context.

The New Testament makes it plain numerous times, that though we are under grace, this does not mean we can transgress the law. If you keep one, you must keep them all. Christians will admit that we must keep 9/10, but for some reason they will say you don't have to keep 10/10. It's the strangest thing. God says "Keep" mankind says "don't keep". God says "Remember", mankind says "forget". Jesus said he came not to destroy the law, and that it would not change, but Christians say, "God changed his law, Christ whiped all them out". It's the strangest thing Christians, I have to tell you, it is STRANGE. I know people are deceived, but boy... You try having children and tell them to do something, and then have them find every excuse in the book not to do it.

As stated in the previous topic, When Christ said "on those two" hang everything, Paul later explained that refers to the 10 Commandments in Romans 13:9-10. It is a summary, "briefly comprehended". A summary points back to the original work. The original work is the 10 Commandments.

Judaizing Christians? Do you know.. That removing the 10 Commandments, is actually a new movement. You would have been laughed to scorn 100 years ago if you tried to make such a strange move. (And no, the same comment cannot have been made about the Sabbath. Besides the fact that historically speaking, we've had Christians keeping the 7th day Sabbath, but also, we've had Christians who firmly believe Sunday is the Sabbath).

Trekson, we're going to have to agree to disagree here, but I want to make one last comment.

Your statement regarding 24/7/365 about it not being "good enough" is seriously strange. Is this the belief that you hold regarding going to church every Sunday? You may not spend an entire day at church, maybe 1-4 hours, but Christians who keep the Sabbath, somehow are telling God that 24/7 isn't good enough? Is that the decision that's made by a Sabbath keeper? Does a Sabbath keeper never again pray, study the Word, or go to church ever, except for Sabbath? Quite the contrary. I know the Church I belong to, actually believes you should read, and study, and do something to spread the Gospel, every single day. Not pray once, but at least three times a day! Not tooting, no, I shall not glory, or exhalt self. But that is extremely contrary to what I believe, especially since in Sunday Church I recall barely praying, not really studying, nor had I read the Word of God in its entirety. I do not know the motivation of every Sabbath Keeper, nor their motives, but I can honestly testify, that I'm closer to God than I ever was in a Sunday Church, not farther.