Matthew 28:19 – Trinity corrupted verse

[Marymog]

No, I can't see how I have misinterpreted it. The Scriptures are meant for everyone, and certainly all Christians, not just some elite group who want to tell others what they should and shouldn't believe.

Hmmmm.....So when the Spirit of truth comes upon ME He will guide ME into all truth? (John 16:13) If that is true then why are you denying my truth? Also, Scripture says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Am I the pillar and foundation of truth? Also, Scripture says if my brother sins against me then we (you and I) are to take our differences to the church (Matthew 18:15-17). The church then decides who is right or wrong (to be treated like a pagan or tax collector). Doesn’t that passage make the men of The Church an elite group who tell others what they should and shouldn’t believe? You know, kind of like the Apostles were an elite group?

Mary

 

[keithr]

That claim, even if it is true, does not rule out the beliefs of the whole Church.

No, but it does show that the Scriptures were altered in an attempt to falsely insert support for the man-made doctrine of the Trinity.

None of these men denied the Trinity.

Irrelevant. The apostle Paul denied the Trinity:

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1 Corinthians 8:6, KJV).

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5, KJV).

Galatians 1 (ESV):
3) Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
4) who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

 

[keithr]

It DOES NOT say He was the Firstborn of Creation - it says OVER all creation.

Colossians 1:15 (WEB, MKJV, ASV, Darby, etc.): "who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation".

It looks like it's only a few modern translations like NIV, NLT and NKJV that translate it as "over all creation".

The Lord Jesus Christ = Emmanuel = God(Jehovah) with Us = the Word was God = the Word became Flesh

Emmanuel means 'god with us' not 'Yahweh with us'. Jesus, as the logos, was a god (John 1:1) who became human and lived with us (John 1:14).

 

[keithr]

If there was opposition to it for a long time then who or what is the Spirit spoken of in the NT? The Spirit that descended upon Jesus when he was baptized, the Spirit spoken of in John 14:26 and 15:26 etc is God his father?

God is a spirit (John 4:24) and God's spirit coming upon or into people is God at work (or God's spirit at work, God's holy spirit).

Ephesians 3:20) Now to him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,​

The Holy Spirit is not a person, it is God's power in action. God can pour out His power onto/into somebody, but can a person be poured out?!

Titus 3:5-6) ... he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior;

Act 2:33) Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this, which you now see and hear.​

 

[Wrangler]

Who was Jesus talking about in John 14:26 and 15:26 (among other verses)?

This is the fallacy trinitarians invoke, Appeal to Diversion. I reference how 1 Cor 1:3 parses God (who alone is the Father) with Jesus as a matter of logic, definition and language usage. You just ignore that. Then aim to distract the conversation with other verses you hope supports your position.

In Bible Study last night I came across another verse that parses God, who is the Father of some body else (or some other being if your prefer, as do all the Epistles. Let's ignore what every writer of the Bible believed; that God, the Father, alone is God.

To answer your questions, didn't I already demonstrate that John 20:31 says his entire Gospel was not to show Jesus was God incarnate but that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God? Logically, this means 14:26 and 15:26 CANNOT be used to support trinitarianism, right? Is it really so hard to grasp 14:26 and 15:26 in this light? I think not.


Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:2

 

[Wrangler]

The Word was God....and The Word became flesh

Right. Every prophet is the word of God becoming flesh. It does not mean that God became flesh. Just ignore 20:31 which destroys all trinitarian efforts to use anything in his Gospel to support trinitarianism.

 

[David in NJ]

God is a spirit (John 4:24) and God's spirit coming upon or into people is God at work (or God's spirit at work, God's holy spirit).

Ephesians 3:20) Now to him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,​

The Holy Spirit is not a person, it is God's power in action. God can pour out His power onto/into somebody, but can a person be poured out?!

Titus 3:5-6) ... he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior;

Act 2:33) Being therefore exalted by the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this, which you now see and hear.​

 

[Wrangler]

Andf by proving Jesus was Messiah He also proved He was a sdivine as His Father.

Friend, Jesus died. That is how you know he is not God. Only the Father is God. Jesus said it, which is good enough for me. Jesus is sent by the one true God

Father ... because You have given Me total authority over humanity. I have come bearing the plentiful gifts of God; and all who receive Me will experience everlasting life, a new intimate relationship with You (the one True God) and Jesus the Anointed (the One You have sent).
John 17:1-3 (The Voice)

 

[Wrangler]

I did not call you a fool - I said foolish - Here is the difference

Rationalize it all you want, my friend.

 

[Wrangler]

The Word was with God. The Word became flesh. Who became flesh? Was it Jesus?

Not who. WHAT became flesh. The word of God is a WHAT not a WHO. Every prophet is the word of God that became flesh, spoken by a flesh and bone human being.

This is in contrast to people being terrified upon hearing directly from God. See Deuteronomy 18:15-18.

 

[Wrangler]

Really? Every Christian gets to decide what their truth is? Where is that in Scripture? (Hint, it’s not)

HINT: Scripture tells us not to argue debatable things.


It’s high time that you welcome all people weak in the faith without debating and disputing their opinions ... In light of this, we must resolve never to judge others and never to place an obstacle or impediment in their paths that could cause them to trip and fall.
Roman 14:1,13

My brothers and sisters, do not assault each other with criticism. If you decide your job is to accuse and judge another believer, then you are a self-appointed critic and judge of the law; if so, then you are no longer a doer of the law and subject to its rule; you stand over it as a judge. 12 Know this—there is One who stands supreme as Judge and Lawgiver. He alone is able to save and to destroy, so who are you to step in and try to judge another?
Jam 4:11-12

 

[keithr]

Hmmmm.....So when the Spirit of truth comes upon ME He will guide ME into all truth? (John 16:13) If that is true then why are you denying my truth?

God guides us to the truth throughout our lives; He doesn't reveal all of the truth to us instantly. We are all at different stages along that path, so it's not surprising that there is some disagreement among Christians.

1 Corinthians 13:
9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
10) but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.
12) For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known.

Perhaps He is guiding you towards more truth now through reading this thread?

Also, Scripture says that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Am I the pillar and foundation of truth?

1 Timothy 3:15 (MKJV): "that you may know how you ought to behave in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."

The whole church is the house (temple) of God, not just a few Christians. So yes, you are part of the pillar and foundation.

Also, Scripture says if my brother sins against me then we (you and I) are to take our differences to the church (Matthew 18:15-17). The church then decides who is right or wrong (to be treated like a pagan or tax collector). Doesn’t that passage make the men of The Church an elite group who tell others what they should and shouldn’t believe? You know, kind of like the Apostles were an elite group?

No. Jesus says in that passage that you should first confront the person who sins (just you and him in conversation):

15) “If your brother sins against you, go, show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained back your brother.​

Then with 1 or 2 other Christians:

16) But if he doesn’t listen, take one or two more with you, that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.​

And finally the whole local church:

17) If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the assembly. If he refuses to hear the assembly also, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector.​

So Jesus doesn't say a few elite members of the Church should try to correct the sinner, it says any individual like yourself can do it, or just 2 or 3 members of the church, or the whole local church can be involved, but he doesn't say that just a few elite members should always tell others what they should believe. It's only about judging whether somebody has sinned against you.

 

[Illuminator]

No, but it does show that the Scriptures were altered in an attempt to falsely insert support for the man-made doctrine of the Trinity.

Irrelevant.

It's very relevant. The ECF were unanimous in their beliefs about the Trinity, as it developed. You have deviated from the whole Church based on the formation of recent made-in-America cults.

The apostle Paul denied the Trinity:

No, he did not. That is nothing more than an opinion.

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1 Corinthians 8:6, KJV).

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5, KJV).

Galatians 1 (ESV):
3) Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
4) who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

None of these verses disprove the Trinity. You have invented a new doctrine, contrary to centuries of development. So you blindly dismiss what the early Church believed as "irrelevant" because the beliefs of the whole historic Church contradicts your preconceived notions, fed to you by modern day Arians and a complex mix of other heresies that plagued the Church in the first few centuries.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same divine substance, so that alone does not rule out or infringe on the Oneness of God in any way. You have invented your private version of the Trinity, which makes no sense, and then knock it down. Your argument rests on straw man fallacy and a questionable dispute over one verse.

further reading: Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?

 

[marks]

Every prophet is the word of God that became flesh, spoken by a flesh and bone human being.

Only Jesus.

There is no Scripture that shows your view here, that I'm aware of.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Friend, Jesus died. That is how you know he is not God. Only the Father is God. Jesus said it, which is good enough for me. Jesus is sent by the one true God

Father ... because You have given Me total authority over humanity. I have come bearing the plentiful gifts of God; and all who receive Me will experience everlasting life, a new intimate relationship with You (the one True God) and Jesus the Anointed (the One You have sent).
John 17:1-3 (The Voice)

So to you Jesus is a false god then?

for the bible says this about Him:

John 1:1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace

Isaiah 10:21
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Genesis 49:24
But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel

Deuteronomy 7:21
Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the Lord thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.

Job 36:5
Behold, God is mighty, and despiseth not any: he is mighty in strength and wisdom

Psalm 50:1
The mighty God, even the Lord, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Psalm 132:5
Until I find out a place for the Lord, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob.

Among many other verses describing Jesus!

Jesus is called God in the Bible that is beyond dispute so either He is a true God or a false God. there is no in between .something is either true or false.

 

[David in NJ]

HINT: Scripture tells us not to argue debatable things.


It’s high time that you welcome all people weak in the faith without debating and disputing their opinions ... In light of this, we must resolve never to judge others and never to place an obstacle or impediment in their paths that could cause them to trip and fall.
Roman 14:1,13

My brothers and sisters, do not assault each other with criticism. If you decide your job is to accuse and judge another believer, then you are a self-appointed critic and judge of the law; if so, then you are no longer a doer of the law and subject to its rule; you stand over it as a judge. 12 Know this—there is One who stands supreme as Judge and Lawgiver. He alone is able to save and to destroy, so who are you to step in and try to judge another?
Jam 4:11-12

Then why do you argue against His Word = the Word that became flesh = The Lord Jesus Christ.
You argue against any and all scripture that Glorifies the Son -
Is it not because you do not believe God, but put your trust in man, is there not a idol in front of you that you quote at the bottom of each of your posts, arguing that Jesus is not Jehovah even though the Scriptures clearly identify Jesus as the Redeemer of Israel, our Redeemer and King of kings = the Lord.
Thus saith the Lord [Jehovah] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord [Jehovah] of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”
Jesus also says "before Abraham, I AM"
Jesus also say "I AM the Alpha and the Omega - the Beginning and the End"
Jesu is the Redeemer of Israel and all who come to Him - there is no other name given under heaven whereby we MUST be SAVED.
I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior. - Isaiah 43:11
All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.

You think you are fighting for truth, when in fact you are fighting against God.

You, wrangler, search the scriptures for eternal life but they speak of ME says the Lord Jesus Christ

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me - John 5:39

 

[Wrangler]

So to you Jesus is a false god then?

Absolutely. No kind of god is a false God. Why do you disregard Jesus saying his Father is the only true God?

 

[Wrangler]

Then why do you argue against His Word = the Word that became flesh = The Lord Jesus Christ.

Explained many times. Search for my posts referencing Deuteronomy 18:15-18.

 

[David in NJ]

Explained many times. Search for my posts referencing Deuteronomy 18:15-18.

No - you never explained anything but ignorance of scripture.

 

[David in NJ]

Absolutely. No kind of god is a false God. Why do you disregard Jesus saying his Father is the only true God?

It is not us who disregard Jesus Words.

We who know Jesus, know and believe Jesus when He speaks of the Father.

Jesus says: I and My Father are ONE (Echad) John 10:30

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow ME: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
SAME AS:
And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.