"Milk" is Doctrine, "Meat" is.....?

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theefaith

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For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ - "Now you are the body of Christ" (I Cor. xii., 27)-and precisely because it is a body is the Church visible: and because it is the body of Christ is it living and energizing, because by the infusion of His power Christ guards and sustains it, just as the vine gives nourishment and renders fruitful the branches united to it. And as in animals the vital principle is unseen and invisible, and is evidenced and manifested by the movements and action of the members, so the principle of supernatural life in the Church is clearly shown in that which is done by it.

From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error: as also are those who regard the Church as a human institution which claims a certain obedience in discipline and external duties, but which is without the perennial communication of the gifts of divine grace, and without all that which testifies by constant and undoubted signs to the existence of that life which is drawn from God. It is assuredly as impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life. As Christ, the Head and Exemplar, is not wholly in His visible human nature, which Photinians and Nestorians assert, nor wholly in the invisible divine nature, as the Monophysites hold, but is one, from and in both natures, visible and invisible; so the mystical body of Christ is the true Church, only because its visible parts draw life and power from the supernatural gifts and other things whence spring their very nature and essence. But since the Church is such by divine will and constitution, such it must uniformly remain to the end of time. If it did nor, then it would not have been founded as perpetual, and the end set before it would have been limited to some certain place and to some certain period of time; both of which are contrary to the truth. The union consequently of visible and invisible elements because it harmonizes with the natural order and by God's will belongs to the very essence of the Church, must necessarily remain so long as the Church itself shall endure. Wherefore Chrysostom writes: "Secede not from the Church: for nothing is stronger than the Church. Thy hope is the Church; thy salvation is the Church; thy refuge is the Church. It is higher than the heavens and wider than the earth. It never grows old, but is ever full of vigour. Wherefore Holy Writ pointing to its strength and stability calls it a mountain" (Hom. De capto Eutropio, n. 6).

Also Augustine says: "Unbelievers think that the Christian religion will last for a certain period in the world and will then disappear. But it will remain as long as the sun - as long as the sun rises and sets: that is, as long as the ages of time shall roll, the Church of God - the true body of Christ on earth - will not disappear" (In Psalm. lxx., n. 8). And in another place: "The Church will totter if its foundation shakes; but how can Christ be moved?...Christ remaining immovable, it (the Church), shall never be shaken. Where are they that say that the Church has disappeared from the world, when it cannot even be shaken?" (Enarratio in Psalm. ciii., sermo ii., n. 5).

He who seeks the truth must be guided by these fundamental principles. That is to say, that Christ the Lord instituted and formed the Church: wherefore when we are asked what its nature is, the main thing is to see what Christ wished and what in fact He did. Judged by such a criterion it is the unity of the Church which must be principally considered; and of this, for the general good, it has seemed useful to speak in this Encyclical. ,
 

marks

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The full assurance of faith is to have the same confidence before you begin as after you finish, that God's Word is true. Otherwise you are basing your faith on your perceptions, "It's a tall cliff, and a slender rope", your opinions, "such a slender rope might not hold me all the way up", and you will retain doubt, "so, maybe I'm going to fall."

The full assurance of faith is the confidence, Maybe I'll have to climb this cliff, and maybe not, but if I do, I have a rope that will take me all the way up, I know, because God said it would be so.

The difference is our feeling inside. We can be obedient to God in faith at different levels. We obey knowing what He said, with trepidition, tentative, hoping. And He will be faithful.

We can be obedient to God without any hesitancy, knowing that His Word is always true, and so there isn't a glimmer of wondering, "will this really work out?", because we have the full assurance of our faith.

Our walk is by faith and not by sight.

Will we believe what we are told? Or only after we experience things?

At issue is our opinions and perceptions. If our trusting is tied to our experiencing, what happens when we experience something that we didn't want, didn't expect, and think are wrong?

"I trusted Him for my rent to be paid, but I'm being evicted!"

We need to raise our trust not on the things we want, the circumstances in our lives that we think should be, and set our trust on our Savior.

No Matter What happens in my life, IF my trust in in Jesus, that He will care for my every need, and He will guide me faithfully in every circumstance, well, how many times did He say things like, Be it to you according to your faith?

Then, even in the difficult and confusing times - the rope broke, nothing caught me, and now I'm in trouble - we can still have that full assurance of our faith, because it's not in the rope, or whether it breaks or holds, because our trust is in Jesus, and He never changes.

Much love!
 

David H.

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The full assurance of faith is to have the same confidence before you begin as after you finish, that God's Word is true. Otherwise you are basing your faith on your perceptions, "It's a tall cliff, and a slender rope", your opinions, "such a slender rope might not hold me all the way up", and you will retain doubt, "so, maybe I'm going to fall."

The full assurance of faith is the confidence, Maybe I'll have to climb this cliff, and maybe not, but if I do, I have a rope that will take me all the way up, I know, because God said it would be so.

The difference is our feeling inside. We can be obedient to God in faith at different levels. We obey knowing what He said, with trepidition, tentative, hoping. And He will be faithful.

We can be obedient to God without any hesitancy, knowing that His Word is always true, and so there isn't a glimmer of wondering, "will this really work out?", because we have the full assurance of our faith.

Our walk is by faith and not by sight.

Will we believe what we are told? Or only after we experience things?

At issue is our opinions and perceptions. If our trusting is tied to our experiencing, what happens when we experience something that we didn't want, didn't expect, and think are wrong?

"I trusted Him for my rent to be paid, but I'm being evicted!"

We need to raise our trust not on the things we want, the circumstances in our lives that we think should be, and set our trust on our Savior.

No Matter What happens in my life, IF my trust in in Jesus, that He will care for my every need, and He will guide me faithfully in every circumstance, well, how many times did He say things like, Be it to you according to your faith?

Then, even in the difficult and confusing times - the rope broke, nothing caught me, and now I'm in trouble - we can still have that full assurance of our faith, because it's not in the rope, or whether it breaks or holds, because our trust is in Jesus, and He never changes.

Much love!

Exactly.... doctrine precedes experience. Faith precedes works.... putting faith into action. We are His workmanship (Ephesians 2:8-10) First we believe and know the truth about him (Eido), then we come to Know Him (Ginosko) who is True,(1 John 5:20) the faithful and true witness. We know the rope can hold our weight, but until we have to climb the mountain we will not know for sure that truth.

If you are understanding this rightly all of a sudden that whole division in the church of conditional vs. eternal security just melts away to nothing, one of the many divides that will melt away to nothing when we move from milk to meat.

God bless.
 

marks

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An unfulfilled promise is like an unpaid loan.... you cannot claim it as money in the bank until it is repaid to you.
Then you don't believe the promise.

The promise is like a paid benefit. Go to the bank and make your withdrawal. Unless you don't believe. And then you won't go. Or, go and find out, it's really there.

I'm advocating the first. Know its there because the One Who told you is reliable. You appear to be considering this as impossible, and you cannot REALLY for sure know until you go and . . . . see . . . for yourself.

Much love!
 

marks

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but until we have to climb the mountain we will not know for sure that truth.
Why not? Trust Him.

Must He prove to you experientially every word before you will believe? I'm calling you to enjoy a higher level of faith, by simply choosing to trust EVERYTHING God says.

We don't have to wait until every bridge is crossed, and every mountain climbed, before we will finally believe Him.

Much love!
 

marks

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This is the deep meaning of 1 John 5:20...

1 John 5:18-21 KJV
18) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21) Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

I think the cookies are on the bottom shelf on this one, if you know the reference.

Much love!
 

bbyrd009

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From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error
hmm, seems to kinda force a certain def of "Church" that i would not ne interested in being in league with, tbh. Just bc ppl call something "church" does not necessarily mean that it is, imo
 
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theefaith

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Catholic and divine faith whole and entire

It was thus the duty of all who heard Jesus Christ, if they wished for eternal salvation, not merely to accept His doctrine as a whole, but to assent with their entire mind to all and every point of it, since it is unlawful to withhold faith from God even in regard to one single point.

You could read it if you like

SATIS COGNITUM
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH

also and n YouTube if you don’t like to read or are lazy like me
 

theefaith

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hmm, seems to kinda force a certain def of "Church" that i would not ne interested in being in league with, tbh. Just bc ppl call something "church" does not necessarily mean that it is, imo

the church is unique and one
Jn 10:16
 

theefaith

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SATIS COGNITUM
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON THE UNITY OF THE CHURCH

You are free to read it all or be lazy like me and use youtube

From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error: as also are those who regard the Church as a human institution which claims a certain obedience in discipline and external duties, but which is without the perennial communication of the gifts of divine grace, and without all that which testifies by constant and undoubted signs to the existence of that life which is drawn from God. It is assuredly as impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life. As Christ, the Head and Exemplar, is not wholly in His visible human nature, which Photinians and Nestorians assert, nor wholly in the invisible divine nature, as the Monophysites hold, but is one, from and in both natures, visible and invisible; so the mystical body of Christ is the true Church, only because its visible parts draw life and power from the supernatural gifts and other things whence spring their very nature and essence. But since the Church is such by divine will and constitution, such it must uniformly remain to the end of time. If it did nor, then it would not have been founded as perpetual, and the end set before it would have been limited to some certain place and to some certain period of time; both of which are contrary to the truth. The union consequently of visible and invisible elements because it harmonizes with the natural order and by God's will belongs to the very essence of the Church, must necessarily remain so long as the Church itself shall endure. Wherefore Chrysostom writes: "Secede not from the Church: for nothing is stronger than the Church. Thy hope is the Church; thy salvation is the Church; thy refuge is the Church. It is higher than the heavens and wider than the earth. It never grows old, but is ever full of vigour. Wherefore Holy Writ pointing to its strength and stability calls it a mountain" (Hom. De capto Eutropio, n. 6).

Also Augustine says: "Unbelievers think that the Christian religion will last for a certain period in the world and will then disappear. But it will remain as long as the sun - as long as the sun rises and sets: that is, as long as the ages of time shall roll, the Church of God - the true body of Christ on earth - will not disappear" (In Psalm. lxx., n. 8). And in another place: "The Church will totter if its foundation shakes; but how can Christ be moved?...Christ remaining immovable, it (the Church), shall never be shaken. Where are they that say that the Church has disappeared from the world, when it cannot even be shaken?" (Enarratio in Psalm. ciii., sermo ii., n. 5).

He who seeks the truth must be guided by these fundamental principles. That is to say, that Christ the Lord instituted and formed the Church: wherefore when we are asked what its nature is, the main thing is to see what Christ wished and what in fact He did. Judged by such a criterion it is the unity of the Church which must be principally considered; and of this, for the general good, it has seemed useful to speak in this Encyclical. ,
 

marks

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"The Church will totter if its foundation shakes; but how can Christ be moved?...Christ remaining immovable, it (the Church), shall never be shaken. Where are they that say that the Church has disappeared from the world, when it cannot even be shaken?" (Enarratio in Psalm. ciii., sermo ii., n. 5).
Amen!
 

marks

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but until we have to climb the mountain we will not know for sure that truth.
I don't have to know what awaits in my future, because I know Who is in my future. It's about what we think, what we do, what we think we can do, rather, who we know.

When we are in communion with our Maker, all other considerations are secondary.

Much love!
 

David H.

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Why not? Trust Him.

Must He prove to you experientially every word before you will believe? I'm calling you to enjoy a higher level of faith, by simply choosing to trust EVERYTHING God says.

We don't have to wait until every bridge is crossed, and every mountain climbed, before we will finally believe Him.

Don't you see how you are not processing what I am saying here.....

"You either have the Spirit of Truth teaching you or you do not, Believe all you want in this promise.

You either have experienced God drawing nigh to you or you have not, Believe all you want that this promise is true.

You either are eating the meat of the word or you are not, Believe all you want that there is a meat to be digested.

Milk is doctrine, meat is experiencing and putting into action that doctrine in your life. Easier said than done....

So to use the doctrine of eternal security, the doctrine is true, but until you experience the full assurance of the faith there is always doubt there if you are truly honest with yourself, and is why scripture has the passages that promote conditional security so as to move us from milk to meat. From doctrine to experience.

It is only then that you will know the truth.

the same can be said for all other doctrines.... for example the divinity of Jesus, we can believe this and we can Know (eido) this as true or we KNOW (Ginosko) Him.... Emannuel, God with us. This is the deep meaning of 1 John 5:20..."


You keep laying again the foundation of faith toward God, Nothing wrong with that, but are opposed to the experience that allows you to go onto perfection, As per Hebrews 6:1.
 

Ziggy

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Kind of like holding a door open for someone when your normal behavior wouldn't even bother looking behind you.
Helping someone to their car with the groceries. Reaching something for someone on the high shelf they can't reach.
Every little act of kindness leads to being more conscious about how you can help others.
That's what Jesus does. He helps us help others.
And the more you give, the more you receive.
What a concept!
I wish more people were kinder.
Hugs
 

marks

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Milk is doctrine, meat is experiencing and putting into action that doctrine in your life. Easier said than done....
Milk and meat are both doctrine, if you want to go with the way the verse reads.

So to use the doctrine of eternal security, the doctrine is true, but until you experience the full assurance of the faith there is always doubt there if you are truly honest with yourself, and is why scripture has the passages that promote conditional security so as to move us from milk to meat. From doctrine to experience.

This is simply your insistance that faith isn't sufficient, and you absolutely must have sight also.

Because I maintain that trusting will allow those promised to be fulfilled in you, resulting in a fruitful Christian life, you continue to malign me.

Your false presupposition is that if I promote faith, that somehow means there is no experience of Spiritual fruit in my life. OK, I get it, you say that in one form or another over and over ad nauseum. Next, if you follow your pattern, will come your posts about how "offended" I am, because I've pointed this out.

You could surprise me. We'll see.

I'm not interested in mounting a defense to convince you of my spiritual life, that's the purpose of your ad hominems, to deflect our discussion away from the topic, onto me, and I'm not playing.

You say we have to move "from doctrine to experience". I'm saying our walk is by faith and not by sight. We aren't chasing experience.

If you require experiences to show you the reliability of your Creator, may you receive all that you need, and you will, God is faithful to us, and will provide those experiences . . . to build our faith.

If you are able to just believe what you read in the Bible, and live by it, this IS our faith, and our walk is by faith.

I think the Christian life is to get us AWAY FROM exeriences, basing our faith on experiences, and I think He wants us to come to know Him, and knowing Him, we won't doubt what He says, and we will freely do what pleases Him.

Much love!
 

marks

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You either have experienced God drawing nigh to you or you have not, Believe all you want that this promise is true.

Law Religion vs Grace

Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you, amen!

By faith you accept this to be true, and believing it is true allows you to find that it is. When you don't believe you can be near to God, you don't focus your mind this way, and it's like blindfolding yourself. God has promised to NEVER leave me. This is a bedrock promise, and I would never tell someone differently, myself.

Do you suppose this verse is speaking in a technical sense, or an experiential sense? Because IF He has promised, and He has, that He will never leave me, then that is so, He will never leave me. Which mean He is here with me right now, as I'm typing to you, and this impacts my life as one might suppose it would.

What exactly are you expecting me to say about God's presence? He's here, He always is. That has a lot to do with how we can always talk to Him, and even hear from Him as well. And His involvement in my life, every moment. I think that's what He created us for, so that He can share with us all the moments in our lives.

When God is our primary relationship, not as "positional description", but has actually become our primary relationship, the things in life flow from that, not like just from me. When it's just from me, that's the flesh coming through. But that is overcome by returning focus to reality - what Jesus did on the cross, and what God did in my rebirth.

We always overcome by faith.

Yes, we experience the overcoming, if in fact we do. But our overcoming is because we have faith in the Overcomer. Because we have faith, that's why we go on to see the outworking of that faith.

But we don't need to wait to see the outworking before we believe.

And then sometimes we do . . . Lord, I believe, help my unbelief! So God takes us first through baby steps, milk doctrines, getting us steadier in our faith.

As we grow, He gives us meat doctrines, as we serve, and bear fruit. These happen when we trust Him. Because we trust Him. Because He Whom we trust is faithful.

Much love!
 
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David H.

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You say we have to move "from doctrine to experience". I'm saying our walk is by faith and not by sight. We aren't chasing experience.

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: (1 Corinthians 2:4)

When we move from milk to meat, the Spirit works in us and through us to produce demonstrations of Power as a testimony to redeeming work He does in us. We cannot reach this point until we surrender to His work in us, Many a Christian has lived a life without the demonstrations of the Power of the Spirit in them, and they like the man who was given one talent and buried it in the ground will have to answer to this at the judgment seat of Christ.

What exactly are you expecting me to say about God's presence? He's here, He always is. That has a lot to do with how we can always talk to Him, and even hear from Him as well. And His involvement in my life, every moment. I think that's what He created us for, so that He can share with us all the moments in our lives.

God is omnipresent, so that is a given, that He is with you every moment.... God making his presence known to you is another thing altogether, That is when you see how holy He is and how unworthy we are..... Do not mix the two. The latter experience will change you.

Draw night to God and he will draw nigh to you.... This is speaking of the latter, God making His presence known to you.... I will close by asking this question of you.... You Speak to God, But does he speak to you?

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (John 10:27)