(Mis)understanding Salvation

[Episkopos]

This is such an important subject and one that is very easily misunderstood, given the present climate that is so affected by the various winds of doctrine being bandied about. The best remedy for misunderstanding salvation, as it turns out, is to understand it in all its subtleties. Join me as we investigate the various aspects of this important and crucial doctrine.

 

[amadeus]

This is such an important subject and one that is very easily misunderstood, given the present climate that is so affected by the various winds of doctrine being bandied about. The best remedy for misunderstanding salvation, as it turns out, is to understand it in all its subtleties. Join me as we investigate the various aspects of this important and crucial doctrine.

What did Jesus mean here?

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

What is this "world" that Jesus says he has overcome? Not planet Earth, not society...! Jesus came as a man with a body of flesh subject to the temptations to which every one us are, or have been, subject. This is not sin. Jesus never had any sin of his own. What he had is described here:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

These lusts and that pride are not sin in themselves. Every person has had them. However, when any one of them is followed it certainly leads us always to sin. Jesus never followed them. Rather he overcame them. That was the "world" that Jesus overcame, the "world" of the temptations of the man Jesus. Perhaps the price for our already committed "sins" has been paid, but until the "world" of temptations within myself is overcome will I not continue to be tempted?

Has anyone but Jesus already done that? If not then for whom is this promise?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

When a person eats of that tree, will he ever die?

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:22-24

Is there not a Way to connect the dots between those verses and this one?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26

Would it not have been after Jesus overcame the world as per John 16:33 that he said this?

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world..." John 17:11

He was no longer subject to those temptations. He was outside of that world even though he was still a man of flesh on planet Earth! He still had to go to the cross, but no more satanic temptations trying to deceive him and cause him to sin. He had won the last personal battle. Undoubtedly the suffering and death were painful, but he was no longer even considering not drinking of the cup of that final temptation overcome here:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Remember the Apostles could (and did ) say "I know of nothing against myself... " but that does not clear me before God who sees all - He is the One Who Sees All... and He is The Judge. ...

But we still always strive to obey Jesus when He tells us "Go and never sin again" ....
... lest your condition ends up (much) worse than before ...
This is one of those supposedly impossible things Jesus asked of us:

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

We must strive, but alone, of ourselves, we cannot win in the end. We cannot overcome as Jesus overcame... but then.. consider who is in us fighting on our side!

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

 

[Episkopos]

What did Jesus mean here?

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
What is this "world" that Jesus says he has overcome? Not planet Earth, not society...! Jesus came as a man with a body of flesh subject to the temptations to which every one us are, or have been, subject. This is not sin. Jesus never had any sin of his own. What he had is described here:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16
These lusts and that pride are not sin in themselves. Every person has had them. However, when any one of them is followed it certainly leads us always to sin. Jesus never followed them. Rather he overcame them. That was the "world" that Jesus overcame, the "world" of the temptations of the man Jesus. Perhaps the price for our already committed "sins" has been paid, but until the "world" of temptations within myself is overcome will I not continue to be tempted?

Has anyone but Jesus already done that? If not then for whom is this promise?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

When a person eats of that tree, will he ever die?

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:22-24

Is there not a Way to connect the dots between those verses and this one?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26
Would it not have been after Jesus overcame the world as per John 16:33 that he said this?

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world..." John 17:11
He was no longer subject to those temptations. He was outside of that world even though he was still a man of flesh on planet Earth! He still had to go to the cross, but no more satanic temptations trying to deceive him and cause him to sin. He had won the last personal battle. Undoubtedly the suffering and death were painful, but he was no longer even considering not drinking of the cup of that final temptation overcome here:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Remember the Apostles could (and did ) say "I know of nothing against myself... " but that does not clear me before God who sees all - He is the One Who Sees All... and He is The Judge. ...

But we still always strive to obey Jesus when He tells us "Go and never sin again" ....
... lest your condition ends up (much) worse than before ...
This is one of those supposedly impossible things Jesus asked of us:

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27
We must strive, but alone, of ourselves, we cannot win in the end. We cannot overcome as Jesus overcame... but then.. consider who is in us fighting on our side!

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. All it takes is an unwavering faith...a full assurance of God's goodness, power and will to save us to the utmost.

 

[Lizbeth]

What did Jesus mean here?

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
What is this "world" that Jesus says he has overcome? Not planet Earth, not society...! Jesus came as a man with a body of flesh subject to the temptations to which every one us are, or have been, subject. This is not sin. Jesus never had any sin of his own. What he had is described here:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16
These lusts and that pride are not sin in themselves. Every person has had them. However, when any one of them is followed it certainly leads us always to sin. Jesus never followed them. Rather he overcame them. That was the "world" that Jesus overcame, the "world" of the temptations of the man Jesus. Perhaps the price for our already committed "sins" has been paid, but until the "world" of temptations within myself is overcome will I not continue to be tempted?

Has anyone but Jesus already done that? If not then for whom is this promise?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

When a person eats of that tree, will he ever die?

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:22-24

Is there not a Way to connect the dots between those verses and this one?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26
Would it not have been after Jesus overcame the world as per John 16:33 that he said this?

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world..." John 17:11
He was no longer subject to those temptations. He was outside of that world even though he was still a man of flesh on planet Earth! He still had to go to the cross, but no more satanic temptations trying to deceive him and cause him to sin. He had won the last personal battle. Undoubtedly the suffering and death were painful, but he was no longer even considering not drinking of the cup of that final temptation overcome here:

"And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Remember the Apostles could (and did ) say "I know of nothing against myself... " but that does not clear me before God who sees all - He is the One Who Sees All... and He is The Judge. ...

But we still always strive to obey Jesus when He tells us "Go and never sin again" ....
... lest your condition ends up (much) worse than before ...
This is one of those supposedly impossible things Jesus asked of us:

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27
We must strive, but alone, of ourselves, we cannot win in the end. We cannot overcome as Jesus overcame... but then.. consider who is in us fighting on our side!

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

Amen. I sure have to and do believe there must be some benefits to having Christ in us. That is no small potatoes. He being our Advocate with the Father for one thing, since "we offend in many ways all", in spite of ourselves. We will be riding into heaven on His coattails, not on our own merits that's for sure, but HIS.

 

[Ritajanice]

If one has been Born Again of “ imperishable “ seed, then there is NO mistaking that one has been saved from eternal damnation....

Only the witness of the Holy Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children.

The Spiritual rebirth is a Living Birth by the power of the Spirit....our spirit needs to be Born Again ,then we are saved from eternal damnation as we are in the Kingdom Of God....which is Spiritual...

We have the witness of the Holy Spirit that resides in our spirit....where he liveth and abideth forever.

My testimony and belief....

 

[Lizbeth]

It's so strange to me to hear someone say the cross is not about forgiveness, when scriptures say otherwise. And that is what atonement is for. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission/forgiveness of sins.

God didn't HAVE to do it that way, but He CHOSE to. He committed Himself to the Law and thus the shedding of blood became necessary to bring about forgiveness. That is HOW Jesus FULFILLED the Law on our behalf........by going to the cross and shedding His blood....and thus as or forerunner also forging the path we are to follow, the path of the cross.

 

[Episkopos]

It's so strange to me to hear someone say the cross is not about forgiveness, when scriptures say otherwise. And that is what atonement is for. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission/forgiveness of sins.

Read Isaiah 61:1 Does it say that Jesus came to forgive sins? People want unconditional forgiveness based on lip service and religious beliefs. But people will be judged for what they did. If they lied about God they will be rejected from the kingdom. Yet people will wipe their mouths and say...we have done no iniquity. The condemnation of these is just.



You are not used to hearing he gospel. You are not used to hearing the words from the Lord...just man-made interpretations that misrepresent God and the gospel.

The evangelical scheme is that God is big and mean...and everyone needs for Jesus to protect them from big ole mean God.

That is a total fiction ...God is love, and He loved the world. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

You have not yet figured out how deep you are invested in fables.

God didn't HAVE to do it that way, but He CHOSE to. He committed Himself to the Law and thus the shedding of blood became necessary to bring about forgiveness.

False as can be. God is always ready to forgive. Have you actually read the bible? Watch my podcast if you are not familiar with the bible.

That is HOW Jesus FULFILLED the Law on our behalf........by going to the cross and shedding His blood....and thus as or forerunner also forging the path we are to follow, the path of the cross.

Giving His life in order to take it back again...yes...as we are to do too. We are to follow Jesus through the death of the outer man so that we can be raised anew in the inner man into the heavenly kingdom walk. But very very few will go to God to be thus crucified and translated. Instead, MANY will name and claim philosophical positions that are inventions that God does NOT recognize...as in...go away, I never knew you.

 

[Lizbeth]

Mat 26:28

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


Luk 24:46-47

He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Forgiveness is what atonement is for. Jesus has atoned for our sins, that we might be forgiven them. As per the atoning sacrifices of the old testament which foreshadowed His once for all sacrifice.



Hope the following will help in understanding the relationship between binding/loosing and forgiveness, as I believe to have received it from the Lord:


Act 10:38

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


Sickness, disease and demonic oppression generally comes about because of sin, either individual sin or within the family line, or sins on a national level affecting the citizens, or global in general. Israel being under the Law especially understood the curses/judgments that were promised for violating the Law. Jesus going around healing and delivering the Jews was Him going around forgiving their sins……loosing from the debt and bondage that unforgiven sins had brought about:

Luk 5:23-24

Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.


And healing at the pool of Bethesda:

Jhn 5:14

Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.


Matthew 18 from verse 15 onward is all about loosing and binding ie, forgiving sins or not forgiving. Encourage anyone reading to read the whole context.

Mat 18:17-18

“And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. ( ie, if the offender refuses to hear and repent, then do not forgive him.)

“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.


Mat 18:27

Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.



Luk 13:10-16

Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.

And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up.

But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.”

And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.”

The Lord then answered him and said, “Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it?

“So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?”


Jesus having authority on earth to forgive sins and therefore loose from bondage…has delegated that authority and ministry to the church. The authority to bind and loose (to heal/deliver and forgive or not forgive) are those keys to the kingdom of heaven that He has given us. He didn’t forgive the Pharisees and impenitent heart-hardened religious leaders, but He forgave the humble and those who didn’t know any better, those who needed a second chance etc, who were willing to come to Him and receive.

Likewise there are those who we are not to loose from their debt and “forgive” in that sense too at times. Those in the church who are blatantly sinning and refuse to repent as Paul gave instruction about. And I assume also following Jesus’ example, if we are being led by the Spirit, certain religious leaders at times who ought to know better but who oppose and reject the gospel.

 

[Episkopos]

If one has been Born Again of “ imperishable “ seed, then there is NO mistaking that one has been saved from eternal damnation....

from the lake of fire yes...but not from condemnation. MANY who are born again will be rejected...into outer darkness, there will be weeping and anger.

Only the witness of the Holy Spirit can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children.

Yes...but we are also to fear God and depart from iniquity. That seal has 2 sides. (2 Tim. 2:19) Don't just look at God's goodness...realize you will be judged hard.

The Spiritual rebirth is a Living Birth by the power of the Spirit....our spirit needs to be Born Again ,then we are saved from eternal damnation as we are in the Kingdom Of God....which is Spiritual...

We have the witness of the Holy Spirit that resides in our spirit....where he liveth and abideth forever.

My testimony and belief....

You are always stuck on the first step of a race.

 

[Episkopos]

For those who have been taught error and think the cross is about forgiveness and have not yet understood the difference between righteousness and holiness...check out a podcast I did on that very subject. Don't forget to like and subscribe

 

[Ritajanice]

from the lake of fire yes...but not from condemnation. MANY who are born again will be rejected...into outer darkness, there will be weeping and anger.

How can the Born Again be rejected?

As Jesus says no one can take us away from him....what does being Born Of Imperishable seed mean to you? @Episkopos

John 10:28

King James Version

​

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

God chose his Born Again children from out of the world, for his purpose and his plan..we have been Born Again of imperishable seed which liveth and abideth forever....

If God chose you to become Born Again, then you will endure to the end.

Also there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ...I will post that scripture, maybe you can go through it with me?

Yes...but we are also to fear God and depart from iniquity. That seal has 2 sides. (2 Tim. 2:19) Don't just look at God's goodness...realize you will be judged hard.

You are always stuck on the first step of a race.

In your opinion, thank you.

 

[Ritajanice]

For @Episkopos ?

Romans 8

King James Version

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Ritajanice]

For those who have been taught error and think the cross is about forgiveness and have not yet understood the difference between righteousness and holiness...check out a podcast I did on that very subject. Don't forget to like and subscribe

The cross is about “ Forgiveness “ for without the death of Jesus who took our sin onto himself...how would we be reconciled back to God if Jesus hadn’t given up His Spirit?

Without his Spirit that he gave up, we could never receive his Spirit when we become Born Again...we would be alienated from God forever..my belief.

 

[Episkopos]

Mat 26:28

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


Luk 24:46-47

He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Forgiveness is what atonement is for. Jesus has atoned for our sins, that we might be forgiven them. As per the atoning sacrifices of the old testament which foreshadowed His once for all sacrifice.



Hope the following will help in understanding the relationship between binding/loosing and forgiveness, as I believe to have received it from the Lord:

Do you realize that the NT was written in Greek? There is a book called the "concordance" that shows what the original Greek word was that was translated into various other languages...English included. I'm hoping you know that the bible was not written in English. Paul didn't know English. This may indeed come as a shock to you.

So with a LITTLE effort you can go to the concordance (E sword is available online) and look up the word translated as "forgiveness"...which is a horrible and misleading translation. You will see that the word is "aphesis" which is translated from the OT Hebrew as "freedom"

The bible interprets the bible.

Did you know that every word in Hebrew has its equivalent in other languages? They have a word for everything. Same for Greek. I know that surprises many uni-lingual speakers.

To understand the word "aphesis" and how it is used go read Is. 61:1 (Hebrew)...and then in Luke 4 :18 Greek)...look for the word for "liberty, and freedom....it's APHESIS! Freedom. Jesus speaks these words and His words are to do with the power of the gospel to free the captives...to TAKE away the sins of the world. But keep that word "aphesis" in mind..it is used TWICE in Luke 4:18...to DOUBLE down on those who would ad sin to sin.


This is how we know what weight of meaning we are to give to words. We compare scripture with scripture.

Now, I DON'T expect you to be honest...based on your history. But if you have any reading comprehension skills...you will overcome your prior indoctrination in a moment.

Otherwise..."That they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

The irony. By trying to be forgiven rather than purified...your sins are doubled. Adding sin (iniquity) to sin (unbelief)

 

[Lizbeth]

False as can be. God is always ready to forgive. Have you actually read the bible? Watch my podcast if you are not familiar with the bible.

My bible says the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and that He is always ready to forgive a humble and contrite heart.

 

[Lizbeth]

For those who have been taught error and think the cross is about forgiveness and have not yet understood the difference between righteousness and holiness...check out a podcast I did on that very subject. Don't forget to like and subscribe

I find a lot of the things you say so confusing Episkopos. I don’t’ know how atonement can be versus or contrary to forgiveness when being forgiven of sins is what being cleansed from them means…..sanctified, washed clean…means forgiven…a fresh clean start.


Exo 32:30

And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.


Lev 4:20

And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.


(And if we sin/err after being initially cleansed we can be forgiven/cleansed of those sins really the same way we came to Christ initially….through genuine heartfelt repentance. Hopefully we don’t sin in major wilful ways, but we do tend to mess up and soil our feet inadvertently at times along the way and need to have them washed periodically as needed.)

 

[Lizbeth]

Do you realize that the NT was written in Greek? There is a book called the "concordance" that shows what the original Greek word was that was translated into various other languages...English included. I'm hoping you know that the bible was not written in English. Paul didn't know English. This may indeed come as a shock to you.

So with a LITTLE effort you can go to the concordance (E sword is available online) and look up the word translated as "forgiveness"...which is a horrible and misleading translation. You will see that the word is "aphesis" which is translated from the OT Hebrew as "freedom"

The bible interprets the bible.

Did you know that every word in Hebrew has its equivalent in other languages? They have a word for everything. Same for Greek. I know that surprises many uni-lingual speakers.

To understand the word "aphesis" and how it is used go read Is. 61:1 (Hebrew)...and then in Luke 4 :18 Greek)...look for the word for "liberty, and freedom....it's APHESIS! Freedom. Jesus speaks these words and His words are to do with the power of the gospel to free the captives...to TAKE away the sins of the world. But keep that word "aphesis" in mind..it is used TWICE in Luke 4:18...to DOUBLE down on those who would ad sin to sin.


This is how we know what weight of meaning we are to give to words. We compare scripture with scripture.

Now, I DON'T expect you to be honest...based on your history. But if you have any reading comprehension skills...you will overcome your prior indoctrination in a moment.

Otherwise..."That they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

The irony. By trying to be forgiven rather than purified...your sins are doubled. Adding sin (iniquity) to sin (unbelief)

Your attitude is unfortunate and not worthy of a response, but I will repeat what the little bible study that i brought is saying: That sins being remitted means forgiven - loosed from them. Yes, that is the freedom for the captives that the bible speaks about. Captives having been in bondage, in prison for their debts of sin........which are forgiven and loosed through the cross.

 

[Ritajanice]

Epi....you do understand that Gods Spirit is Alive and Active don’t you?

You must know that the Bible is his written word....then we have his Living word which is his Spirit?

We become Born Again by his “ Living “ word.

 

[APAK]

Mat 26:28

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.


Luk 24:46-47

He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Forgiveness is what atonement is for. Jesus has atoned for our sins, that we might be forgiven them. As per the atoning sacrifices of the old testament which foreshadowed His once for all sacrifice.



Hope the following will help in understanding the relationship between binding/loosing and forgiveness, as I believe to have received it from the Lord:


Act 10:38

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


Sickness, disease and demonic oppression generally comes about because of sin, either individual sin or within the family line, or sins on a national level affecting the citizens, or global in general. Israel being under the Law especially understood the curses/judgments that were promised for violating the Law. Jesus going around healing and delivering the Jews was Him going around forgiving their sins……loosing from the debt and bondage that unforgiven sins had brought about:

Luk 5:23-24

Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.


And healing at the pool of Bethesda:

Jhn 5:14

Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.


Matthew 18 from verse 15 onward is all about loosing and binding ie, forgiving sins or not forgiving. Encourage anyone reading to read the whole context.

Mat 18:17-18

“And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. ( ie, if the offender refuses to hear and repent, then do not forgive him.)

“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.


Mat 18:27

Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.



Luk 13:10-16

Now He was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath.

And behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bent over and could in no way raise herself up.

But when Jesus saw her, He called her to Him and said to her, “Woman, you are loosed from your infirmity.”

And He laid His hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

But the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath; and he said to the crowd, “There are six days on which men ought to work; therefore come and be healed on them, and not on the Sabbath day.”

The Lord then answered him and said, “Hypocrite! Does not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox or donkey from the stall, and lead it away to water it?

“So ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has bound—think of it—for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath?”


Jesus having authority on earth to forgive sins and therefore loose from bondage…has delegated that authority and ministry to the church. The authority to bind and loose (to heal/deliver and forgive or not forgive) are those keys to the kingdom of heaven that He has given us. He didn’t forgive the Pharisees and impenitent heart-hardened religious leaders, but He forgave the humble and those who didn’t know any better, those who needed a second chance etc, who were willing to come to Him and receive.

Likewise there are those who we are not to loose from their debt and “forgive” in that sense too at times. Those in the church who are blatantly sinning and refuse to repent as Paul gave instruction about. And I assume also following Jesus’ example, if we are being led by the Spirit, certain religious leaders at times who ought to know better but who oppose and reject the gospel.

@Episkopos Epi, you keeping opening the door for this type of reply... I must tell you what I keep seeing, again. This is truth I bring from my spirit....I did not want to, although I was compelled to do this.

Liz, it's a shame that Epi is yet again defiant, without either improving or gently correcting your words if he thinks they are incorrect. This can produce edification and mutual understanding. Unfortunately, he continues to increase and maintain strife within the Body. It serves no useful purpose, only to inflate his own ego I'm afraid. And he is usually wrong in his views anyway, also of my opinion.

Just reread his first part of his reply to you...
He quoted Isaiah and by deliberately not revealing the words of that particular scripture, that would convey some concern for your view. And he really is not concerned in what you say at all, anyway. And then, as usual, he attacks with inflammatorily broad brushing words to separate who he considers his usual serfs of ignorance, of his manor, or in this thread of his, in this case.

Look how he replied again...
----------------------quote-------------
Read Isaiah 61:1 Does it say that Jesus came to forgive sins? People want unconditional forgiveness based on lip service and religious beliefs. But people will be judged for what they did. If they lied about God they will be rejected from the kingdom. Yet people will wipe their mouths and say...we have done no iniquity. The condemnation of these is just.

You are not used to hearing he gospel. You are not used to hearing the words from the Lord...just man-made interpretations that misrepresent God and the gospel.

The evangelical scheme is that God is big and mean...and everyone needs for Jesus to protect them from big ole mean God.

That is a total fiction ...God is love, and He loved the world. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

You have not yet figured out how deep you are invested in fables."

---------------------end quote---------------------

'See' how he immediately he condemns and accuses you like a child seeking revenge? To you and others as part of the unenlightened...

He said: People want unconditional forgiveness based on lip service and religious beliefs. You are not used to hearing he gospel. You are not used to hearing the words from the Lord...just man-made interpretations that misrepresent God and the gospel.
The evangelical scheme is that God is big and mean

-And then some folks actually encourage him and these type of words with a 'like' or a 'love' .....astonishing-----------------------------

The Time of the Lord's Grace.....
(Isa 61:1) The Spirit of the Lord Yahweh is on me; because Yahweh has anointed me to preach good news to the humble. He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and release to those who are bound;

Now where is the works judgement part in Isaiah 61:1? It is not there at all. Epi is too focused on another thought completely.

Now if Epi was heartfelt for your concern regarding the gospel in which Christ came to atone for our sin, to redeem us, to save us, by shedding his blood in his death, and in his resurrection; and therefore caused the opening of the 'flood gates' for one to have their sins forgiven, he would have said so. His heart was not there to do this imo.

And he also could have used Isaiah 61: 1 to actually support your points, in why they are critical to your salvation, that Christ ultimately went to the Cross, for you and him. To come to God with contrite heart and with saving faith for the forgiveness of sin. And in Isaiah 61:1 it was foretold, about the gospel of salvation of forgiveness of sin and by this act of self sacrifice, by the Son of God, of his Father, YHWH.

And when you quoted Mat 26:28 "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." I readily understood it. And it supports Isa 61:1 entirely. In Isaiah, it does not not spell out the words of Mat 26:28 although in spirit and intent it definitely does. And even your other verse support this same thought.


So, why is Epi so defiant, and how long can he keep this defiance up against the Body...? He is the only one that can answer that..not you or I.
I pray for you Epi that you see a way to still show your doctrine, in love and patience, with kinder words for true concern toward others...amen

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos Epi, you keeping opening the door for this type of reply... I must tell you what I keep seeing, again. This is truth I bring from my spirit....I did not want to, although I was compelled to do this.

Liz, it's a shame that Epi is yet again defiant, without either improving or gently correcting your words if he thinks they are incorrect. This can produce edification and mutual understanding. Unfortunately, he continues to increase and maintain strife within the Body. It serves no useful purpose, only to inflate his own ego I'm afraid. And he is usually wrong in his views anyway, also of my opinion.

Just reread his first part of his reply to you...
He quoted Isaiah and by deliberately not revealing the words of that particular scripture, that would convey some concern for your view. And he really is not concerned in what you say at all, anyway. And then, as usual, he attacks with inflammatorily broad brushing words to separate who he considers his usual serfs of ignorance, of his manor, or in this thread of his, in this case.

Look how he replied again...
----------------------quote-------------
Read Isaiah 61:1 Does it say that Jesus came to forgive sins? People want unconditional forgiveness based on lip service and religious beliefs. But people will be judged for what they did. If they lied about God they will be rejected from the kingdom. Yet people will wipe their mouths and say...we have done no iniquity. The condemnation of these is just.

You are not used to hearing he gospel. You are not used to hearing the words from the Lord...just man-made interpretations that misrepresent God and the gospel.

The evangelical scheme is that God is big and mean...and everyone needs for Jesus to protect them from big ole mean God.

That is a total fiction ...God is love, and He loved the world. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

You have not yet figured out how deep you are invested in fables."

---------------------end quote---------------------

'See' how he immediately he condemns and accuses you like a child seeking revenge? To you and others as part of the unenlightened...

He said: People want unconditional forgiveness based on lip service and religious beliefs. You are not used to hearing he gospel. You are not used to hearing the words from the Lord...just man-made interpretations that misrepresent God and the gospel.
The evangelical scheme is that God is big and mean

-And then some folks actually encourage him and these type of words with a 'like' or a 'love' .....astonishing-----------------------------

The Time of the Lord's Grace.....
(Isa 61:1) The Spirit of the Lord Yahweh is on me; because Yahweh has anointed me to preach good news to the humble. He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and release to those who are bound;

Now where is the works judgement part in Isaiah 61:1? It is not there at all. Epi is too focused on another thought completely.

Now if Epi was heartfelt for your concern regarding the gospel in which Christ came to atone for our sin, to redeem us, to save us, by shedding his blood in his death, and in his resurrection; and therefore caused the opening of the 'flood gates' for one to have their sins forgiven, he would have said so. His heart was not there to do this imo.

And he also could have used Isaiah 61: 1 to actually support your points, in why they are critical to your salvation, that Christ ultimately went to the Cross, for you and him. To come to God with contrite heart and with saving faith for the forgiveness of sin. And in Isaiah 61:1 it was foretold, about the gospel of salvation of forgiveness of sin and by this act of self sacrifice, by the Son of God, of his Father, YHWH.

And when you quoted Mat 26:28 "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." I readily understood it. And it supports Isa 61:1 entirely. In Isaiah, it does not not spell out the words of Mat 26:28 although in spirit and intent it definitely does. And even your other verse support this same thought.


So, why is Epi so defiant, and how long can he keep this defiance up against the Body...? He is the only one that can answer that..not you or I.
I pray for you Epi that you see a way to still show your doctrine, in love and patience, with kinder words for true concern toward others...amen

You have it exactly backward. I'm dealing with spoiled and defiant sinners...the outer man ego...that are unable to read the bible and hear any kind of logic...even plain words...if they clash with their dogmatic beliefs. Lizbeth is a case in point...as hard headed as can be...even when faced with obvious truth from multiple facets of the bible.

And I'm not condemning in the slightest...look deeper than your own ego and receive correction. The more you resist the truth the more you will become "offended" with a faux outrage. I'm not you...and you don't know anything about me...so all your conclusions come from you... because you are comparing your own motivations with mine.

So I'm not dealing with a disciple or an inner person seeking truth. No, I'm dealing with a religious spirit ingrained and enforced by the flesh. Using the bible to sound clever...but having no life or truth.

So then I'm extremely patient to even reply to such obstinacy. I do so for the sake of others. I'm very easy to entreat..but when someone twists the truth so blatantly...avoiding the text and twisting its meaning...I point that out. Light exposes darkness...or its not light.

So Apak...have you read Isaiah? Did you do the comparison between Testaments? I say this because the reading skills here are very poor.

When I see honesty...I see a way to speak beyond the religious ideological framework that shuts out the truth in some here.

Are you involved in the discussion or is this a drive-by attack on my person as you are wont to do?