Most New Christians Live Life With 1/3rd The Power Of Christ!

[farouk]

Could you explain what you mean please?

1 Corinthians 15 is relevant here. We do have the victory by faith, verse 57.

 

[amadeus]

Thank you for clarifying. For me it still remains if the uncertainty is not in God then there is no uncertainty, since it is not based off men’s uncertainty in give God the glory. His word often speaks of the manifestation of the Children of God and how that which is born of the Spirit is always born of the Spirit. And That which is born of the flesh is flesh.

What God gave to men in giving the choice of obeying Him or not obeying Him in the garden and now, was a choice between [God/Life/Good/Holy Spirit] or uncertainty [mammon/death/evil/fleshly spirit]. This choice has never changed nor ever been removed us:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:16-17

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Josh 24:15

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:24

Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." I Cor 10:21

Curious...what about the New Heaven and new earth in Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Everything that is happening and is to happen that makes a difference to us is happening within us. Our vessel that holds and carries all that God has given to us as steward is a corrupted vessel of earth [flesh/dirt] and spirit [dead spirit or live Spirit]. It will still go the way of all flesh at the end of our course.

Are the New Heavens and new earth dependent upon men to remain before God always. Could God back out on the New creation whenever good works are not in place as they should be or His Spirit is quenched? Can or does God remove the New creation of heaven and earth in unsealing and resealing the children born of it? Is there a chance men prevent and the New Heavens and new earth fail and come short of glory?

Could God back out? God only does according to His Word, which contains both blessings and curses, doe it not? What could happen is that we could cause back God out by invoking an effective curse [or curses] of God. God spoke it all [blessings and curses] before the foundation of the world of you or me. When His Spirit comes to work in us it will continue to work for as long as we allow it using the raw materials we provide.

If during each day [24 hours] the Master Carpenter is allowed only one hour to work within us while during the remain 23 hours the old man tears down the Carpenter's work and rebuilds his own thing what is the end result eventually going to be? If during the time He is allowed to work in us He is provided no building materials what will the result be? A good carpenter needs good (lumber, and other such materials] to construct a building properly.

What does the Holy Spirit in us need? If a person receives the Holy Spirit in himself, but then never listens to or read from the scriptures or sources of God Word, what can be built that will please God and make us into a piece that will fit properly into the finished product [the Body of Christ]?

Not speaking of you or I ...but only of what the word says of whatsoever is born of God: the New creature in
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Being born again means begin given an new opportunity and the means to do things God's Way instead of our own way. Adam and Eve chose their own way and were then dead as He had promised [or according to His curse].

Within this new opportunity we may, if we so choose, sweep the place clean and refill it with new incorruptible things. This is the old things passing away [dying/being killed] and the new creature growing . We eat His flesh [read the scriptures] and when they are quickened [brought to Life] within us this is the growing new creature in Christ. Would we starve Him? Read into the following verse, if you can, the meaning relating to what I have said here:

There is the blessing:

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me" Matt 25:40

The blessing is going for the Tree of Life as Adam and Eve failed to do.

Or there is the curse:

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." Matt 25:45

The curse is going for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as Adam and Eve did.

And the New Heavens and new earth. Can see you point in what is not a new creature ...Christ is not there and when Christ is not there...they are manifest as none of His. ONLY speaking of where Christ is...that child of God is not forsaken by God.

We are according to what we do, and what we do is directly dependent on who or what we choose and continue to choose. Some insist that it is a one time choice from which we will never turn back. So it should be and perhaps for some through their continuous surrender to God it will be so. For many people it is not that way, even for those who have chosen God's Way... of so I do see it.

Indeed God will never forsake us so the question remains as to whether we ever lose the ability to forsake Him. This was the most significant difference between the way God created us... and the way He created many other creatures. Those others always would do things exactly as He desired, but you and I were created with the ability to say, no, to God. God wants us to choose Him, but He wants us to it to a real choice with a real alternative... so He also set in place an alternative. The alternative, as I see it is in the here and now of this fleshly world on planet Earth, following our own ways instead of God's preferred Way. The alternative as anyone who has seen what their way have to offer can appear attractive and for a "moment" can afford us with a measure of pleasure. The final end of that way, no matter how attractive and pleasurable, is death.

Continued next post

 

[amadeus]

Continued from previous post:
@VictoryinJesus

Believe my husband did bring up an interesting point that this is not about testing or proving men but about proving and the manifestation of the children of God (and Christ in them) who overcomes all things even the world and their faith which increase is of God. (2 Corinthians 10:15) If you believe those born of God ...His seed always before God as the New Heavens and new earth are always before God ...are sealed and unsealed then that uncertainty is of and in men and therefore not a new creature born of the New creation in Christ. Christ who is as certain as God and any born of His Spirit. To claim those manifest as the children of God at any point fail or come short in the removal of God’s Spirit from their keeping is to say 1)they are forsaken. 2)Christ does and did not overcome all things in whatsoever is born of Him. Which is to speak against Christ and the manifestation of all in and of Him endure til the end unto “Behold, all things have become New.”

Do we suppose that God's Way can always be understood by careful logical deduction? Are there not many people in this world of men on planet Earth who are unable to correctly proceed logically in their own minds? Because they are only average or even below average in IQ does this mean they are less likely to walk with God to the end of their road here? That would be unfair and God is no respecter of person and always being completely fair.

Logic, not math nor science alone is NOT the Way to God. Each of us must walk a road where we cannot see clearly beyond the next step and the next step is lighted up for us to see through and by the Holy Spirit... Remember what both Jesus and Paul said faith was? Don't expect to see clearly that which God has not made clear to you. The right time to see it [understand it] is God's time if you will allow Him to work in you at His pace.

Another to consider is the testing in the wilderness and how God wouldn't allow them in the promise land knowing they would mock His Name by their actions. Do you really believe God would give His Spirit and a new birth to be mocked in failure and coming up short of the cost? Again...only speaking of Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

“The Spirit of Christ” would not be given to failure and incompleteness and coming up short of the cost. Period. But yes, where there is no “the Spirit of Christ” there is uncertainty.

Give God, who knows our every need and every step that we need to make, the glory!

I may know the understanding that God has given me, but I do not know the understanding He has given to you. Sometimes He uses me or you to help others understand, but if He is not in it, there is no transfer for understanding simply because you or I want transfer it to another person.​

 

[jshiii]

The uncertainty is not in God or in His word, but in us. God knows about this uncertainty in each of us and asks us bear with Him anyway: [by what? Faith!] The Way to always be certain in our uncertainty is to always be in love with Him and surrendered to Him. Any time we are on doubt on this kind of a question [loving and surrendering to Him] He is always available to help. We have only to ask. A good thing to remember is Matt 7:7 "Ask... seek... knock... opened" . These questions will NOT be amiss [as per James 4:3].

Having faith in God is simply going ahead and doing what He asks even when and if we do not understand all of these things. We need to love Him and surrender to Him while we only know Him and see Him in part [see I Cor 13:12]. People are led into delusions because they get so involved in others things, such as Bible study [this is not an evil thing, but it can be a distraction from loving God], that they leave love behind.

This is whole scenario is one great testing period for us, but it is always an open book test. Open book tests when I was in college were always on the surface more difficult than the other kind where the books were closed and only pencil, test paper and possibly doodle pads were visible on our desks. An open book test was never a slam dunk if you have not been reading and studying along the way. Knowing that it is in the book and finding it in the book are two very different things, especially when the clock is ticking.

The above is a secular example but when we are speaking about God and the things of God we must add pray and worship... that is communication with God. All of the reading and studying of the Bible is absolutely worthless in the eyes of God with no communication. Yes, we must eat His flesh [read & study the Bible], but the flesh alone is dead and will remain dead in us. We must also drink His blood [pray, worship, communicate with God] wherein is the Life. The communication, the connection between us the Head [Jesus] is the Holy Spirit [the Blood... not red]

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53

I like what you are saying here. I need to go to sleep and come back and reread it later today.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Could God back out? God only does according to His Word, which contains both blessings and curses, doe it not?

Bless those who curse you...
Exactly. The point being as for a new creature in old things are passed away, and behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

the old things have passed away and all things have been made new in “behold, I create new heavens and a new earth.” Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Both the new creature and the New heavens and new earth ...all remain before God. God doesn’t say they don’t remain or possibly cannot remain but do remain before Him (stable)in “whatsoever is born of God overcomes”. The new overcomes the old. In the New grows and increases strong in Him but the old is weak and beggarly and passing(diminishing)away. Could focus all day long on that which has passed away and give it some false control but still it comes to nothing. Abraham believed God in even though it wasn’t fully seen with the eyes...when he put Isaac on the altar...even the son who the promises was to come through...believing with absolute certainty by faith God would do what He said He would do. “behold, I make all things New.” For me, questioning or debating if it is true that “whatsoever is born of God overcomes” in that all depends upon man ...is questioning the New Heavens and new earth and making them dependent on that which is passed away as God said it comes down...dissolved by the body of Christ.

What does the Holy Spirit in us need? If a person receives the Holy Spirit in himself, but then never listens to or read from the scriptures or sources of God Word, what can be built that will please God and make us into a piece that will fit properly into the finished product [the Body of Christ]?

Love.

Do we suppose that God's Way can always be understood by careful logical deduction? Are there not many people in this world of men on planet Earth who are unable to correctly proceed logically in their own minds? Because they are only average or even below average in IQ does this mean they are less likely to walk with God to the end of their road here? That would be unfair and God is no respecter of person and always being completely fair.

Who said anything about logic? Or logical? When it’s the opposite and something men can not prove but can only come down from God above. It is not logical in countless verses that says (paraphrasing) Who would give to a failure something profound? Who would trust a nothing and the weak with true the riches. Not men for sure who judge after the outward. Can never convince the whole movement that God looks and says ...There is one good with money. A good businessman so I will give that man business to do for the kingdom of God...since that man earned it well in investment.

There is a good woman. A good mother ...I’ll make her a mother of spiritual children based off her loving and nurturing qualities. Or there is a excellent wife...I’ll give her as a wife to the Son. The old has passed away. No man putting his hand to the plow and looking back to what is behind is fit for the kingdom of God. No going back to what was before and for many that is a blessing. A man that failed in business. A mother who failed miserably as a mother of children. A horrible wife. Depleted of any good qualities or strength and lacking all needed to increase anything or grow anything...God takes it and declares it is not of the power of men but of the Power of God. Why would God give to such failures and the weak...true riches to what lacks in not ever looking back at what is dead and passed away...because what is born of His Son, in Christ is a strong root that increases and is prospered ...in Him and not what is dead and passed. Why would God doubt where the Spirit of Christ is, when the certainty is in His Son? It is not logical. And you are right ...not based off intelligence or ability of the old man to kill his beast or the old mans skills but is based off the Son which makes everyone added to the body of Christ on equal ground of truth in the Son.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Continued from previous post:
@VictoryinJesus

Do we suppose that God's Way can always be understood by careful logical deduction? Are there not many people in this world of men on planet Earth who are unable to correctly proceed logically in their own minds? Because they are only average or even below average in IQ does this mean they are less likely to walk with God to the end of their road here? That would be unfair and God is no respecter of person and always being completely fair.

Logic, not math nor science alone is NOT the Way to God. Each of us must walk a road where we cannot see clearly beyond the next step and the next step is lighted up for us to see through and by the Holy Spirit... Remember what both Jesus and Paul said faith was? Don't expect to see clearly that which God has not made clear to you. The right time to see it [understand it] is God's time if you will allow Him to work in you at His pace.


Give God, who knows our every need and every step that we need to make, the glory!

I may know the understanding that God has given me, but I do not know the understanding He has given to you. Sometimes He uses me or you to help others understand, but if He is not in it, there is no transfer for understanding simply because you or I want transfer it to another person.​

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

The new heavens and new earth shall remain before Him...so shall the seed of Christ and His name remain before God. Been thinking on that quite a bit this morning how Christ said “get behind Me satan.” Yet the new creature and New Heaven and new earth remain before God. All behind Christ as satan and that born of the flesh passes or is passed away—dissolved— all before Him and born (quickened and alive unto God) and of the Spirit remains. NEVER does He say to the New creature of 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Or the New heaven or new earth to “get behind Him”. Never does God undo or unseal what is set before Him. either sealed by the Holy Spirit or not. Only that “old things are passed away;” behind...the “behold, all things are new” remaining before Him. see the separation by Christ body? Of what is behind Christ as satan is behind Christ...and that which is new (quickened)before and remains. That is where I question...how can whatsoever is born of God and set before Christ...ever be put behind with satan and what dissolves as the word tells us. A clear dividing line by Christ of what is passed and “behind” and what is before and a “new creature”. men have nothing to do with maintaining themselves before God but are either...born a new creature and all has been made new. Or are “behind” with satan and of what is dead and passed away.

 

[amadeus]

That is where I question...how can whatsoever is born of God and set before Christ...ever be put behind with satan and what dissolves as the word tells us. A clear dividing line by Christ of what is passed and “behind” and what is before and a “new creature”. men have nothing to do with maintaining themselves before God but are either...born a new creature and all has been made new. Or are “behind” with satan and of what is dead and passed away.

How were Adam and Eve born, if not of God? They were surely of God and would have remained so and grew and even remained without end, if they had not disobeyed God and instead of eating of the forbidden tree, they had eaten of that other tree mentioned, the Tree of Life.

The Tree of Life is also Jesus. It is His flesh we must eat and His blood we must drink. This is our opportunity to succeed where our first carnal parents failed. This the proper nourishment of the "new man". What Adam and Eve did was foolish and when a person born from above [born again] eats from the wrong tree again, instead of eating of Jesus, he is also foolish.

"Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding." Prov 3:13

"She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." Prov 3:18

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." Prov 3:18

It is a good question about Adam. Of course I can’t say for certain but only my opinion. There is a difference in “born from above” and I would say (imo) Adam was not born from above 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Also Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Not Adam that “he might be the firstborn” but Christ as the ‘firstborn’. So for me it is not a strong proof that whatsoever is set before God in the New Heaven and new earth ...where the old has passed away; His seed (Christ)remaining before God as the New creation...is comparable to Adam. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.


As for “She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." Prov 3:18”
“She is a tree of Life” James 3:17-18 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

“The wisdom that is from above” fits with what I’m trying to say in it is this wisdom which fails not and endures and transcends time as that which is born from above...completely different from this wisdom which fades away James 3:15-16 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. [16] For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

What I’m struggling with is saying that which is born from above is ...as you say unsure or kept and maintained by men that which descendeth not from above. The difference of born of Light or of the darkness. Still believe 1 John 5:4-6
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. [5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? [6] This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

...water and blood.

 

[amadeus]

It is a good question about Adam. Of course I can’t say for certain but only my opinion. There is a difference in “born from above” and I would say (imo) Adam was not born from above 1 Corinthians 15:45-47 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

The quickening Spirit is necessary for us because unlike that first man Adam we were born dead to our natural mothers. Adam was born of God and had Life until he and his wife effectively killed themselves by disobeying God. To quicken means to bring to Life.

Also Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Not Adam that “he might be the firstborn” but Christ as the ‘firstborn’.

"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38

He was the son of God when God created him, but he and his wife killed that Life which was why it was necessary for Jesus to bring Life via the quickening Spirit:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Before Jesus brought to us the possibility of Life, we were all dead in the eyes of God.

So for me it is not a strong proof that whatsoever is set before God in the New Heaven and new earth ...where the old has passed away; His seed (Christ)remaining before God as the New creation...is comparable to Adam. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

As for “She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her." Prov 3:18”
“She is a tree of Life” James 3:17-18 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

“The wisdom that is from above” fits with what I’m trying to say in it is this wisdom which fails not and endures and transcends time as that which is born from above...completely different from this wisdom which fades away James 3:15-16 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. [16] For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

What I’m struggling with is saying that which is born from above is ...as you say unsure or kept and maintained by men that which descendeth not from above. The difference of born of Light or of the darkness.

Still believe 1 John 5:4-6
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. [5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? [6] This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

...water and blood.

When is a person born of God may be the question? When he really believes in his heart?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26

What does it mean to believe in Him?

And then consider what Jesus says here:

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." John 6:53-58

What is this flesh that we must eat and what is this blood that we must drink? As I understand it the flesh is what we eat when we consume the bare bones of scripture and the blood is the quickening Spirit within us bringing the scriptures to Life.