I have an American pen-pal who loves traveling the globe - she even came to see me a few years ago - but like you she has been frustrated by lockdown.
Mother of James?
- Thread starter theefaith
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Hi Mary, I agree abortion is horrible and I do not support it and there would be less 'need' for if if people had higher moral standards or at least used protection. However people who do not know God do not know his standards and are nor required to fulfil them so it is up to them to decide, after all God has given them a free will. I don't know how a Christian woman could have an abortion in all honesty knowing that it is against God's will.
From what I've heard People who are paralysed manage to find a way for physical love which is the cement that binds a couple to each other.
Nowhere in the bible does it even imply that Joseph and Mary were required to remain celibate forever. There are however verses that even name their other sons which you choose to ignore.
Your lot make things so difficult and seem to prefer to believe and place more importance on what the church teaches rather than believing the true meaning of scripture.
Last edited:
the Bible says those sons have a different mother named Mary,
Yes there is scripture that says that
Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”
Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,431
- 1,687
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Hi Pearl,
Previously you stated that you feel sorry for Joseph for having a wife who never had sex with him.....Or so some people believe.
For 2,000 years The Church has taught Mary was a perpetual virgin. It was AFTER the Reformation that the teaching came into question. How or Why does the new 500 year old teaching invalidate the 2,000 year teaching?
Quoting the "true meaning of scripture" can you show me in Scripture where it says that Mary and Joseph had sex? I think we can agree it doesn't say they did and some people believe it is implied when Scripture talks about "brothers and sisters" and 1st born. Scripture needs to be looked at in its Jewish and 1st century historical context (take your 21st century glasses off), proper translation of words, context, hermantics etc. The "brothers and sisters" and 1st born verses were addressed by theologians thousands of years ago. However, you accept the theologians from 500 years ago. Is it possible that 'your lot' (Protestantism) is making things so difficult and you are placing more importance on what they teach?
Respectfully, Mary
Where does it say they didn't? But I know you only believe the teaching of the Catholic church and feel that you have to faithfully defend it. I get that. Perhaps our bibles are different. My church has always encouraged me to look for myself. I would not believe any teaching without being sure it was what the bible says. And I'm also sure that you feel the same, so like I said we have different opinions but doesn't mean we can't be friends.
It says in the bible:
Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” Matthew 12:46-47
And also:
“Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Matthew 13:55
Mary was not just an ordinary girl, she is the immaculate conception, all and I mean all graces come thru Mary!
All our salvation is in Her!
she found the grace of God for us!
Lk 1:30
immaculate conception Lk 1:28 full of grace and Lk 1:49
she was declared blessed by God thru the angel Lk 1:28 and Lord is with Her!
All our salvation is in Her!
she found the grace of God for us!
Lk 1:30
immaculate conception Lk 1:28 full of grace and Lk 1:49
she was declared blessed by God thru the angel Lk 1:28 and Lord is with Her!
Brothers and sisters of Jesus?
They are not the children of Mary!
Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)
James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3
In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.
Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..
Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.
The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They may be brothers and sisters but they are simply not the children of Blessed Mary ever Virgin mother of God!
Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!
Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
it also says Mary has a sister, but she is an only child.
John 19:25
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
not her sister but sister in law!
Really think two sisters would have the same name?
Also says that Joseph is the father of Jesus and He is, and we also believe the Virgin birth, how?
matt 1:20 Virgin birth not only Virgin conception!
John 1:45
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,431
- 1,687
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
I think we agree Nowhere does it say that they didn't have sex. So that means that we have to look at the context of Scripture regarding this matter, we have to know the history of Judaism and 1st century Christianity and use hermantics with proper translations to find the answer. A proper translation of "brothers and sisters" could also mean cousins. So, once again, there is no definitive answer with 100% certainty that they were Mary's children. Back to square one for us old friend.
If your church is encouraging you to look for the answers yourself they are not looking out for your soul which is what The Church leaders are supposed to do. For you see we are to Obey those who rule us, and be submissive (Matthew 18:17), for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Your church leaders are to be pointing out these things to the brethren. When they do they will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which they have been following. Scripture contains some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort to their own destruction. So who is distorting Scripture? Your men or mine?
Mary
I'm sorry but those of you who believe Mary was a perpetual virgin are misguided or deluded or blind to the truth. She was born in sin like all the rest of us and and after Jesus birth she goes to the temple for purification. She wouldn't have needed to do this if she had been without sin. And she wouldn't have needed a saviour.
The bible tells us that Mary was a virgin at the birth of Jesus, that is she gave birth without having sex to conceive the child. The bible also tells us that Joseph didn't have sex with her BEFORE she birthed Jesus. But this verse clearly implies that some time after the birth of Jesus they became a normal married couple. And as you know but have disregarded there are a list of names of Jesus brothers.
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. Matthew 1:25
The bible tells us that Mary was a virgin at the birth of Jesus, that is she gave birth without having sex to conceive the child. The bible also tells us that Joseph didn't have sex with her BEFORE she birthed Jesus. But this verse clearly implies that some time after the birth of Jesus they became a normal married couple. And as you know but have disregarded there are a list of names of Jesus brothers.
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. Matthew 1:25
Please pray to God to show you how you are deceived by the teachings of the Catholic church. That is if you dare to discover the truth. And if you already know it as you believe, then what have you got to lose?
They encourage us to check what they are teaching us to make sure that it is biblical so we can't be led astray even by our leaders.
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,431
- 1,687
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
If you determine that you are being led astray by your leaders over a certain passage or doctrine doesn't that make YOU always right and them always wrong?
Basically what this discussion comes down to is that neither you or I are experts in Jewish and Christian history, translation, hermantics etc. so that means we both rely on other men. Or in this case, you rely on you...I rely on other men! My men have been teaching the same thing for 2,000 years.
Thank you for your time. I think we have beat this dead horse enough!!
Respectfully, and so far covid free, Mary
Marymog
Well-Known Member
- Mar 7, 2017
- 11,431
- 1,687
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Hi Pearl,
Are you willing to entertain a different teaching on this? One that is based in Jewish law, Scripture and logic?
Christ submitted to circumcision and Passover was that the Mosaic Law required it, and he (like Mary) was “born under the Law” (Gal. 4:4).
He wanted to remove any cause for criticism and slander on the part of others that is why Christ submitted to things in the Mosaic Law of which he had no personal need or requirement (cf. Matt. 17:24-27)....Just like Mary did.
Christ did these things in order to provide an example for others–an example of obedience to the Mosaic Law with regard to circumcision and Passover, and an example of obedience to the Christian Law in the case of baptism.
Mary submitted to the childbirth purification ritual–with its mandatory sin offering–for the same reasons that Jesus submitted to circumcision (a purification ritual symbolizing being made spiritually clean; cf. Deut. 10:16, 30:6, Jer. 4:4, Rom. 2:29), celebrated the Passover (which was also a sin offering so that God’s wrath would pass over the household), and baptism (another purification ritual; Acts 22:16, 1 Peter 3:21).
Soooo it is not really difficult to explain or understand Mary’s submission to the purification ritual. It is ten times more difficult to explain Christ’s submission to these rituals since he was instrinsically and infinitely holy.
Christianity has been teaching perpetual virginity for 2,000 years and the opposite teaching is only about 500 years old. Why did God allow a "misguided or deluded or blind to the truth" teaching for 1,500 years and then all of a sudden, in the 16th Century, take blinders off of our eyes and reveal the truth to Christianity? By what authority do you teach this?
Your friend, Mary
I think we agree Nowhere does it say that they didn't have sex. So that means that we have to look at the context of Scripture regarding this matter, we have to know the history of Judaism and 1st century Christianity and use hermantics with proper translations to find the answer. A proper translation of "brothers and sisters" could also mean cousins. So, once again, there is no definitive answer with 100% certainty that they were Mary's children. Back to square one for us old friend.
If your church is encouraging you to look for the answers yourself they are not looking out for your soul which is what The Church leaders are supposed to do. For you see we are to Obey those who rule us, and be submissive (Matthew 18:17), for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Your church leaders are to be pointing out these things to the brethren. When they do they will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which they have been following. Scripture contains some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort to their own destruction. So who is distorting Scripture? Your men or mine?
Mary
the Bible says Mary Immaculate conception gen 3:15 enmity none of His works are found in her!
lk 1:49 refers to both “things” Plural, the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus by the HS
2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?
Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!
In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.
Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..
Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.
The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They may be brothers and sisters but they are simply not the children of Blessed Mary ever Virgin mother of God!
Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!
Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
and Matt 16:18 and 18:18 what Peter the apostles and their successors bind on earth is bound in heaven!
If James is the sin of Mary he must be God (divine)
lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son singular, perpetual Virgin)
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son singular who is God)
lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son singular, perpetual Virgin)
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow)
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son singular who is God)
BreadOfLife
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2017
- 20,953
- 3,398
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Did you ever watch the Brady Bunch?
It’s the story of a man named Brady who was busy with 3 boys of his own . . .
He married a woman with 3 daughters from another man. They were forever known after that as the “Brady girls” and the SISTERS of the Brady boys.
Were they uterine siblings”?? NO.
Are they “brothers” and “sisters”?? ABSOLUTELY.
One of the most popular early traditions taken from the 2nd century document, the Protoevangelium of James is that Joseph was a much older man than Mary. He was a widower with children from that previous marriage. According to the Protoevangelium – these are the “siblings” of Jesus.
Whereas, that is a possibility – I personally believe that the “named brethren” of Jesus are from another Mary, as some have already mentioned.
We see this woman at the Crucifixion standing near the cross, alongside Mary (Mother of Jesus), Mary Magdalene and Salome, wife of Zebedee. This “other Mary” is called the “SISTER” (adelphe) of the Mother of Jesus. (Matt. 27:56, Mark 15:40, John 19:25). She is probably another relation and NOT a uterine sister because they have the SAME NAME. She is called the “wife of Clopas” (John 19:25).
Now – “Clopas” is a Greek name and can be rendered in Aramaic as “Alphaeus”.
The Apostle, James the Less, who is named as the SON of this “other” Mary is ALSO the son of Alphaeus/Clopas (Luke 6:15), along with Joses (Joseph).
So, there you have it:
Mary, the “Sister/relation (Adelphe)” of the Mother of Jesus is the mother of James and Joses, et al.
This is why there is no Biblical record NOR is there any extrabiblical record of Mary (Mother of Jesus) having any other children.
Similar threads
