My view of revelation chapter 12 part 4

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Marty fox

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After the defeat of the Romans the Jews became arrogant and believed that God would be on their side and protect them and not allow the Roman’s to defeat them and conquer the city of Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:17
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Verse 17 tells us that the dragon then turned his fury to the rest of the woman’s offspring (as the woman was protected for a set time) and that the woman mentioned in verses 13-16 is not the church because the rest of her offspring “the ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus is the church. I believe that this was fulfilled during the persecution by Nero on the church which lasted for 3 ½ years or 42 months and that the persecution is mentioned in the very next chapter in Revelation as we read below.

Revelation 13:5-7
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation

In Revelation 12:14 we read that the woman is taken to the wilderness and protected for a set time and we don’t see her again until.

Revelation 17:3-5
3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:
Babylon the great
the mother of prostitutes
and of the abominations of the earth.

I believe the woman in Revelation chapter 17 to represent apostate Israel and the city of Jerusalem. Babylon the great is called a prostitute and Ezekiel in Ezekiel chapter 16 also calls Jerusalem a prostitute. In Revelation chapter 17 we read what happens to the woman after the time of her protection as she was destroyed by the beast and the 10 horns as God used them for His purpose as we read in.

Revelation 17:16-17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

God judged apostate Israel for rejecting and killing their Messiah and allowed the temple to be destroyed as every sin sacrifice after Jesus’ death was a rejection of Jesus’ sacrifice which He paid for us.

The Jewish historian Josephus in his account of the fall of Jerusalem records the horrific events of the destruction of Jerusalem which happened in 70AD. What happens to Babylon the great seems to fit the same details as Jerusalem as God used Rome (whom I believe to be the beast a demon in charge of Rome) to destroy Jerusalem for His purpose.

This reminds me of Jesus’ words and prediction back in.

Matthew 23:33-38
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This wraps up my study on Revelation chapter 12 and I believe it helps to show us the timing of some of the events in the book of Revelation.
 

Jay Ross

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This wraps up my study on Revelation chapter 12 and I believe it helps to show us the timing of some of the events in the book of Revelation.

Really, you believe that this POV helps us to understand the End Times. For me it adds to the confusion that many have accepted.
 

Marty fox

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Really, you believe that this POV helps us to understand the End Times. For me it adds to the confusion that many have accepted.

Well I see it as not end times. I used the bible to interpret the bible
 
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GISMYS_7

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With supercomputers and artificial intelligence being used by satan, tiny Israel the human race and this world cannot and will not last much longer. Believers be ready to hear the trumpet of God and be caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus.
 

Truth7t7

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I believe that this was fulfilled during the persecution by Nero on the church which lasted for 3 ½ years or 42 months and that the persecution is mentioned in the very next chapter in Revelation as we read below.

Revelation 13:5-7
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation

In Revelation 12:14 we read that the woman is taken to the wilderness and protected for a set time and we don’t see her again until.

Revelation 17:3-5
3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:
Babylon the great
the mother of prostitutes
and of the abominations of the earth.

I believe the woman in Revelation chapter 17 to represent apostate Israel and the city of Jerusalem. Babylon the great is called a prostitute and Ezekiel in Ezekiel chapter 16 also calls Jerusalem a prostitute. In Revelation chapter 17 we read what happens to the woman after the time of her protection as she was destroyed by the beast and the 10 horns as God used them for His purpose as we read in.

Revelation 17:16-17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

God judged apostate Israel for rejecting and killing their Messiah and allowed the temple to be destroyed as every sin sacrifice after Jesus’ death was a rejection of Jesus’ sacrifice which He paid for us.

The Jewish historian Josephus in his account of the fall of Jerusalem records the horrific events of the destruction of Jerusalem which happened in 70AD. What happens to Babylon the great seems to fit the same details as Jerusalem as God used Rome (whom I believe to be the beast a demon in charge of Rome) to destroy Jerusalem for His purpose.

This reminds me of Jesus’ words and prediction back in.

Matthew 23:33-38
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This wraps up my study on Revelation chapter 12 and I believe it helps to show us the timing of some of the events in the book of Revelation.
You believe and teach that Nero was "The Beast" of Revelation 13

Scripture teaches that the Lord will destroy "The Beast" at his second coming, this is a future event, also Nero died by suicide, Jesus didnt destroy him, back to the drawing board Marty
 

Marty fox

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You believe and teach that Nero was "The Beast" of Revelation 13

Scripture teaches that the Lord will destroy "The Beast" at his second coming, this is a future event, also Nero died by suicide, Jesus didnt destroy him, back to the drawing board Marty

Actually I believe that Rome is the beast Nero was just one of the heads.

Revelation 19 isn’t the second coming before the thousand years because it says that all are killed and how would the beast know the exact moment that Jesus would return if nobody knows when He will return?
 
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Marty fox

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Once more I would just like to point out that this wasn’t intended as a debating post but just another point of view
 

Truth7t7

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Actually I believe that Rome is the beast Nero was just one of the heads.

Revelation 19 isn’t the second coming before the thousand years because it says that all are killed and how would the beast know the exact moment that Jesus would return if nobody knows when He will return?
Revelation 13 identifies "The Beast" with personal pronouns He, His, Him

Your claim it represents rome is silenced
 

Marty fox

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Revelation 13 identifies "The Beast" with personal pronouns He, His, Him

Your claim it represents rome is silenced

He is also was in not but yet will come and has seven heads that is not a single person
 

Davy

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After the defeat of the Romans the Jews became arrogant and believed that God would be on their side and protect them and not allow the Roman’s to defeat them and conquer the city of Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:17
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Verse 17 tells us that the dragon then turned his fury to the rest of the woman’s offspring (as the woman was protected for a set time) and that the woman mentioned in verses 13-16 is not the church because the rest of her offspring “the ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus is the church. I believe that this was fulfilled during the persecution by Nero on the church which lasted for 3 ½ years or 42 months and that the persecution is mentioned in the very next chapter in Revelation as we read below.

That was NOT fulfilled back in history. It is set for the very end of this world, for the coming "great tribulation". The event of giving a Testimony for Jesus by His elect that are delivered up at the end is what that is about, and that definitely IS... about Christ's Church, His very elect faithful in fact. At Revelation 12:11 this was pointed to emphatically, so why did you just SKIP that event which is prophesied for the future?

Rev 12:9-11
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

KJV

That specifically is an event revealed to occur on the 6th SEAL of Revelation 6. So are you saying that the SEALS of Christ's Revelation are finished too? To say so would be crazy, since His RETURN is shown on the 6th Seal, and aligns with the 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial also!

What you are actually doing is just spewing leaven doctrines from the preachers that taught you at your particular church organization denomination. You didn't do your own Bible study, because I've heard those views you espouse before, you didn't come up with them.
 

Marty fox

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That was NOT fulfilled back in history. It is set for the very end of this world, for the coming "great tribulation". The event of giving a Testimony for Jesus by His elect that are delivered up at the end is what that is about, and that definitely IS... about Christ's Church, His very elect faithful in fact. At Revelation 12:11 this was pointed to emphatically, so why did you just SKIP that event which is prophesied for the future?

Rev 12:9-11
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

KJV

That specifically is an event revealed to occur on the 6th SEAL of Revelation 6. So are you saying that the SEALS of Christ's Revelation are finished too? To say so would be crazy, since His RETURN is shown on the 6th Seal, and aligns with the 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial also!

What you are actually doing is just spewing leaven doctrines from the preachers that taught you at your particular church organization denomination. You didn't do your own Bible study, because I've heard those views you espouse before, you didn't come up with them.

Actually you are completely wrong no pastor at any of my church’s ever taught me this it was my own studies with some books

I see the six seals as the same time as the Olivit discourse as the events do match each other which I believe happened in the build up to the events of 70 AD

When did Jesus say Revelation 12:10 happened?

Right before He ascended

Mathew 28:18
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Why do you think revelation 12:11 is at the very end?

Jesus said that He saw satan fall from heaven when the kingdom of God moved through the deciples when they were sent out. Thus satan is cast down when the kingdom of God acts
 
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Davy

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Actually you are completely wrong no pastor at any of my church’s ever taught me this it was my own studies with some books

Doesn't matter, because you are not... the first one that came up with your supposed idea. And I know where it comes from too, from the leading of pastors that wrongly teach that most of Revelation is past history. It's called men's doctrine of PRETERISM.


I see the six seals as the same time as the Olivit discourse as the events do match each other which I believe happened in the build up to the events of 70 AD

The Seals in Revelation 6 indeed are... the Signs Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse. But His Olivet discourse Signs are about the VERY END of this world, because those Signs are about events leading up to this...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV



So let's stop and think about the above Scripture for a moment. Since that last Sign He gave there is about the day of His FUTURE return, what timing does that place those previous Sign events leading up to that? Are all those previous Signs in that chapter for back in 70 A.D.?

No, of course not. ALL... of those Signs He gave there are for the very end of this world we are in right now, not for 70 A.D.

Oh, but the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple back in 70 A.D., and that completed these Signs, right? And you think you came up with that idea yourself? Funny!

That idea is what the doctrines of men called PRETERISM is all about. The WORSE version of Preterism is "Full Preterism" which does not believe in a 'literal' physical return of Lord Jesus Christ back to this earth! Preterists and Historicism both believe Christ's Olivet discourse was about the Romans destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. That is why... they treat Christ's Book of Revelation as either mostly fulfilled, or completely fulfilled.

And YOU did not create that system of men's doctrines.
 

Davy

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Actually you are completely wrong no pastor at any of my church’s ever taught me this it was my own studies with some books

I see the six seals as the same time as the Olivit discourse as the events do match each other which I believe happened in the build up to the events of 70 AD

When did Jesus say Revelation 12:10 happened?

Right before He ascended
....

Here is something else you might want to think about, showing how Preterism is so whacked.

This is Christ's Olivet discourse version from Mark 13, after... Jesus had given the 7 main Signs of the end...

Mark 13:28-37
28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
KJV

The phrase "these things" are about those Signs Lord Jesus gave His disciples while upon the Mount of Olives. The subject is about His future 2nd coming. That is what will be "nigh" (near) when that generation SEES ALL THOSE SIGNS ("these things").

And Jesus showed THAT generation that SEES all those things, will not end until ALL of those Signs are fulfilled. What does that mean?

It means simply, ALL THOSE SIGNS must... happen to the LAST generation on earth that will SEE Christ's 2nd coming!
 

Davy

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Why do you think revelation 12:11 is at the very end?

Jesus said that He saw satan fall from heaven when the kingdom of God moved through the deciples when they were sent out. Thus satan is cast down when the kingdom of God acts

When Jesus said He beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven, that was about Satan's original rebellion before... the time of Adam and Eve. God ended that old rebellion in the old world, and He shook this earth to do it too.

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."


27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.
KJV



Jesus even gave us a 'hint' in Revelation 12:3-4 about Satan's original rebellion against God in the old world...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

KJV

We know per Revelation 12:9 that "dragon" symbol represents Satan himself. The time when he drew those third of the stars (representing angels) to the earth with him when he fell, was WHEN?

That happened PRIOR to the time of Adam and Eve. That means that beast system named there, that had "seven heads", "ten horns", but only "seven crowns", was back at the time when he first rebelled. That is specifically given within that timeframe when he drew those third of the angels into rebellion with him. The beast system of the next Revelation 13 chapter is to have "ten crowns"; it is to be at the end... of this present world.

What you have in Revelation 12 then, are TIMELINE JUMPS back in time, and forward in time (Christ's future reign with the "rod of iron" over ALL nations). So it's a huge... mistake to try and set one time for a Revelation chapter, and think it all takes place at the same time. The Old Testament Books of the prophets does this same kind of quick timeline movement, like the first five verses of Revelation 12 does, covering from the time of Satan's original fall, all the way to the time of Christ's future reign on earth with the "rod of iron".
 
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Marty fox

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Doesn't matter, because you are not... the first one that came up with your supposed idea. And I know where it comes from too, from the leading of pastors that wrongly teach that most of Revelation is past history. It's called men's doctrine of PRETERISM.




The Seals in Revelation 6 indeed are... the Signs Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse. But His Olivet discourse Signs are about the VERY END of this world, because those Signs are about events leading up to this...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV



So let's stop and think about the above Scripture for a moment. Since that last Sign He gave there is about the day of His FUTURE return, what timing does that place those previous Sign events leading up to that? Are all those previous Signs in that chapter for back in 70 A.D.?

No, of course not. ALL... of those Signs He gave there are for the very end of this world we are in right now, not for 70 A.D.

Oh, but the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple back in 70 A.D., and that completed these Signs, right? And you think you came up with that idea yourself? Funny!

That idea is what the doctrines of men called PRETERISM is all about. The WORSE version of Preterism is "Full Preterism" which does not believe in a 'literal' physical return of Lord Jesus Christ back to this earth! Preterists and Historicism both believe Christ's Olivet discourse was about the Romans destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. That is why... they treat Christ's Book of Revelation as either mostly fulfilled, or completely fulfilled.

And YOU did not create that system of men's doctrines.

Of course I didn't create it
 

MatthewG

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After the defeat of the Romans the Jews became arrogant and believed that God would be on their side and protect them and not allow the Roman’s to defeat them and conquer the city of Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:17
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Verse 17 tells us that the dragon then turned his fury to the rest of the woman’s offspring (as the woman was protected for a set time) and that the woman mentioned in verses 13-16 is not the church because the rest of her offspring “the ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus is the church. I believe that this was fulfilled during the persecution by Nero on the church which lasted for 3 ½ years or 42 months and that the persecution is mentioned in the very next chapter in Revelation as we read below.

Revelation 13:5-7
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation

In Revelation 12:14 we read that the woman is taken to the wilderness and protected for a set time and we don’t see her again until.

Revelation 17:3-5
3 Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:
Babylon the great
the mother of prostitutes
and of the abominations of the earth.

I believe the woman in Revelation chapter 17 to represent apostate Israel and the city of Jerusalem. Babylon the great is called a prostitute and Ezekiel in Ezekiel chapter 16 also calls Jerusalem a prostitute. In Revelation chapter 17 we read what happens to the woman after the time of her protection as she was destroyed by the beast and the 10 horns as God used them for His purpose as we read in.

Revelation 17:16-17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

God judged apostate Israel for rejecting and killing their Messiah and allowed the temple to be destroyed as every sin sacrifice after Jesus’ death was a rejection of Jesus’ sacrifice which He paid for us.

The Jewish historian Josephus in his account of the fall of Jerusalem records the horrific events of the destruction of Jerusalem which happened in 70AD. What happens to Babylon the great seems to fit the same details as Jerusalem as God used Rome (whom I believe to be the beast a demon in charge of Rome) to destroy Jerusalem for His purpose.

This reminds me of Jesus’ words and prediction back in.

Matthew 23:33-38
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

This wraps up my study on Revelation chapter 12 and I believe it helps to show us the timing of some of the events in the book of Revelation.

Thank you for sharing your insight!
 
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Davy

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Of course I didn't create it

So why then... are you pushing a doctrine of men that you did not... get from your own Bible study? Don't you see doing that is only the following of men, and not God in His Word? And it's perfectly OK to agree with a doctrine that man teaches which can be 'confirmed' in God's Holy Writ.

Simply saying that Christ's Olivet discourse matches the Seals of Revelation 6 (which it does), and then proposing that the Olivet discourse along with Revelation 6 was fulfilled in 70 A.D. by the Romans is evidence of NOT... checking that idea out in God's Word, for yourself. It shows a complete misinterpretation of the events in Christ's Olivet discourse.