Mystery, Babylon the Great...is this you?

[Barrd]

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

So Jesus gave ONLY the apostles the authority to "make disciples of all nations", baptismal authority and teaching authority?
Once the apostles died the authority to do these things died with them?
You may believe Jesus abandoned us and the authority he passed down to his apostles ended but Jesus says different. He said he will be with us until the end of the age.

You have made several comments about being baptized. By who's authority were you baptized? Jesus clearly states he passed his baptismal authority onto the apostles. The apostles passed it to someone else and they passed it to someone else and so on and so on until The Barrd was baptized 2000 years later. So the person who baptized you got that authority somehow and from someone? Didn't they?

The problem and the reason why we have thousands of different denominations is because no one wants to accept authority! Jesus passed his authority down to the church and he said the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Scripture says the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Now we just have to figure out what church he was talking about.

A very long time ago, Israel decided that they needed some authority over them. They already had God, but they felt that they needed some man to lead them.

1Sa 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

They had rejected God. And there would be a price to pay:

1Sa 8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.
1Sa 8:10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.
1Sa 8:11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.
1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.
1Sa 8:13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.
1Sa 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.
1Sa 8:15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
1Sa 8:16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.
1Sa 8:17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.
1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

They should have listened to Samuel.
Let's see...they had King Saul...he didn't last very long....and then, of course, there was King David...and then, Solomon the Wise. Solomon, who nearly destroyed Israel over his women.
By the time Solomon had finished, the Kingdom had been torn in two.

They were warned that the Lord would "suddenly appear":

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

I'm sure you are familiar with that prophecy. And the Lord did, indeed, suddenly come to His temple...

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap...

They were warned, but they still did not recognize their Messiah. And what's worse, they are still looking for a man to be their Messiah.

Now, you'd think we would learn something from all of this, wouldn't you?
But no....fools that we are, even though we know Who our Messiah is, yet we are still looking for a man to lead us....

 

[heretoeternity]

I read Revelation 17-18 and I see USA all over it! I find nothing that does not fit USA!

I wish the only country I am citizen of nothing bad but I am afraid I am right about my suspicions.

We do not kill saints? Really? How about 60+ million of unborn who did not sin and therefor are saints. How about all USA started and backed wars that kills scores of Christians from Yugoslavia to Iraq and all over Middle East?




The US and indeed, the western countries has become so self centred and evil that it cannot believe that there are billions of other people on the planet who are trying to live their daily lives in peace and harmony, and to raise their families and get on with their lives..they may be different customs, colour and religion, but they still matter to God...all people matter to God, and He wants everyone to come to Him...
For some reason the western countries have trouble understanding this apparently.
You are right on Skitnik!

 

[Barrd]

We who are Christians need to stop thinking of ourselves as citizens of this or that country, and start thinking of ourselves as citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[heretoeternity]

Amen to that Barrd....

 

[tom55]

Now, you'd think we would learn something from all of this, wouldn't you?
But no....fools that we are, even though we know Who our Messiah is, yet we are still looking for a man to lead us....

I don't understand what YOU are saying here?

Clearly Jesus told MAN (his apostles) "....go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

I know this is a waste of time to ask this question since you didn't answer any of the questions in my last post but isn't Jesus saying that MEN are going to make us disciples teach us and baptize us? Didn't He give them the authority to do this? You say you were baptized. Didn't a man baptize you?

 

[Barrd]

I know this is a waste of time to ask this question since you didn't answer any of the questions in my last post but isn't Jesus saying that MEN are going to make us disciples teach us and baptize us? Didn't He give them the authority to do this? You say you were baptized. Didn't a man baptize you?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Several things we need to see here, but the most important is the very first line.

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

All power...that is all authority...is given unto Jesus.

Go ye therefore

He sends His Apostles to all nations, in His authority...not theirs.

and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

They are to teach...but they are to do so under His authority. Not their own.
They are to baptize...again under His authority.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you

They are to teach the things that Jesus commanded them. They are not to improvise.

And this last line is as important as the first:

lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

Jesus....and His authority...will be with us, even until the end of the world.

Let's not make the same darnfool mistake the ancient Jews did...let's not toss Jesus off the throne and put some man up there instead.

Jesus...He is our King of Kings, and our Lord of Lords.

 

[tom55]

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Several things we need to see here, but the most important is the very first line.
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
All power...that is all authority...is given unto Jesus.
Go ye therefore
He sends His Apostles to all nations, in His authority...not theirs.
and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost
They are to teach...but they are to do so under His authority. Not their own.
They are to baptize...again under His authority.
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you
They are to teach the things that Jesus commanded them. They are not to improvise.
And this last line is as important as the first:
lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.
Jesus....and His authority...will be with us, even until the end of the world.
Let's not make the same darnfool mistake the ancient Jews did...let's not toss Jesus off the throne and put some man up there instead.
Jesus...He is our King of Kings, and our Lord of Lords.

I am glad that we are in agreement that his authority is with us. Since it is with us, here on earth, right now, where is that authority? Who has it?

 

[epostle1]

Could someone please tell me what "power the Church once had"?" Please state the year. An era will do.

While yer at it, could someone please tell me the exact encyclical or council when the Church went off the rails, became corrupt, unbiblical and false. They are all available on line. Generalizations, which is all I hear from anti-Catholics, are meaningless. "Gradual decline" is a generalization and sheer laziness. There had to be a point in time and an exact teaching indicating a "gradual decline" someplace.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. He didn't promise the Church would never be attacked from within and from without. Yes, there have been corrupt bishops, even corrupt popes, but infallible teaching on faith and morals has been maintained. If it hasn't, where is the proof? In the psychotic ramblings of Dave Hunt?

Tom said:
I am glad that we are in agreement that his authority is with us. Since it is with us, here on earth, right now, where is that authority? Who has it?

Jesus gave his very own authority to Peter and the Apostles, passed to their successors.

The Catholic doctrine of the papacy is biblically based, and is derived from the evident primacy of St. Peter among the apostles. Like all Christian doctrines, it has undergone development through the centuries, but it hasn’t departed from the essential components already existing in the leadership and prerogatives of St. Peter. These were given to him by our Lord Jesus Christ, acknowledged by his contemporaries, and accepted by the early Church. The biblical Petrine data is quite strong and convincing, by virtue of its cumulative weight, especially for those who are not hostile to the notion of the papacy from the outset. This is especially made clear with the assistance of biblical commentaries. The evidence of Holy Scripture (RSV) follows:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2015/10/50-nt-proofs-for-petrine-primacy-the-papacy.html

In conclusion, it strains credulity to think that God would present St. Peter with such prominence in the Bible, without some meaning and import for later Christian history; in particular, Church government. The papacy is the most plausible (we believe actual) fulfillment of this.

 

[Barrd]

I am glad that we are in agreement that his authority is with us. Since it is with us, here on earth, right now, where is that authority? Who has it?

Who has it?
Why, Jesus has it. He has always had it.

Maybe you didn't get the memo. Jesus is not dead.

You keep wanting some man to tell you what to do, what to believe. Why?? Don't you have a Bible? Don't you know how to pray?
If you are a Christian, you have the Holy Spirit of God inside of you. Among other things, it is the Spirit's job to keep you in mind of the the things Jesus taught.

A man cannot rule over God's Kingdom. The heart of man is desperately wicked. Even the best of men, given that kind of power, will abuse it. l believe with all my heart that we need to leave our Jesus on the throne, where He belongs.

 

[epostle1]

I'm still waiting for evidence of all this temporal power the Church is supposed to have, and all I've seen so far are the psychotic ramblings of a Dave Hunt mentality. No scholarly evidence posted, no quotes given, just brainless Catholic bashing. The Catholic Church exercises her influence in world affairs for the common good, if anyone bothers to read her teachings on social justice. All the conspiracies past and present levied against the Church as being an evil entity are, for the most part, insane. It's true we had some corrupt popes, but they never taught an error. And if they did, where is it? It was centuries ago and has no relevance today.

This is what makes discussion with anti-Catholics so difficult. Assertions are made without proof, questions go ignored, and all this Rev. 17. eisegesis is accepted without question from religious con artists.

Robert Aufill discusses the life and beliefs of the fiercely anti-Catholic Dave Hunt, who wrote A Woman Rides the Beast: The Roman Catholic Church and the Last Days. Aufill laments the fact that if Hunt were less prejudiced against the Catholic Church, he might come to recognize that his spirituality is ultimately derived from Rome. Hunt sees the Catholic Church as the enemy of true Christianity precisely because the Church claims to be the visible Kingdom of God on earth, while Hunt believes that the true Kingdom is other-worldly, and Christ's followers will be raptured out of the world before the end times.

However, many of Hunt's beliefs, such as his emphasis on "deciding for Christ" (i.e., cooperating with the grace of justification), and his balanced understanding of the action of the Holy Spirit inspiring Christians to strengthen their faith and commitment to Christ, coincide with Catholic teaching. - See more at: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=875#sthash.E2ksalBL.dpuf

 

[Barrd]

Kepha, I do hope you understand that when I say that no man can rule over the Kingdom of God, I am not "Catholic bashing."
I do not believe as you do, obviously, but that doesn't mean i think you are "bad" somehow for believing as you do.
I doubt any of us has it 100% perfect...

 

[epostle1]

Who has it?
Why, Jesus has it. He has always had it.

Maybe you didn't get the memo. Jesus is not dead.

You keep wanting some man to tell you what to do, what to believe. Why?? Don't you have a Bible? Don't you know how to pray?
If you are a Christian, you have the Holy Spirit of God inside of you. Among other things, it is the Spirit's job to keep you in mind of the the things Jesus taught.

A man cannot rule over God's Kingdom. The heart of man is desperately wicked. Even the best of men, given that kind of power, will abuse it. l believe with all my heart that we need to leave our Jesus on the throne, where He belongs.

Either Jesus established a visible, hierarchical, infallible earthly church, or the Apostles suddenly flew up to heaven to teach and baptize from heaven. We know Jesus is head of the Church. He is also head of the church on earth, and has the authority to appoint a representative on earth. A spiritualized church cannot bind and loose. That is a physical act that requires authority. But to spiritualize the earthly leadership that Jesus established does violence to scripture and all of Christian history. The whole New Testament is peppered with clear indications of Peter's leadership. I have 75 verses.

"It is the Spirit's job to keep you in mind of the the things Jesus taught." is not in the Bible. Conviction, yes, but that is not teaching. It's a man made tradition. It is the Spirit's job to remind the Church of the the things Jesus taught, and it is the Church's job to teach us, not private individuals with thousands of "holy Spirits" with conflicting teachings. And not all that Jesus taught is in the Bible.

What you and most Protestants cannot understand is how the Holy Spirit can infallibly superintend fallible human beings, yet you unquestioningly accept the canon of the new Testament as infallible. This is a gross inconsistency.

The Church taught the truth at the council of Nicae in 325 AD, in spite of the fact that 80% of the bishops fell for the Arian heresy. That is the Church's infallibility at work, guided by the Holy Spirit, protecting her from teaching error. Council of Ephesus, defending the Incarnation against heresy. And all the councils down through history, protected from teaching error.

I raised the question twice, "could someone please tell me the exact encyclical or council when the Church went off the rails, became corrupt, unbiblical and false." No answer has come forth, because it would take work. But there are plenty of unsubstantiated opinions and baseless assertions about the nature of the Catholic Church and her authority, which all discussions ultimately boil down to.

"A man cannot rule over God's Kingdom.

And I say no man can rule over God's Kingdom by himself, and without God. Even the most corrupt popes never made a ruling.

Jer. 33:17 For thus saith the Lord: There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel.

Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.

 

[epostle1]

Kepha31

Maybe you can help me out here but I have read (or heard) that the Catholic Church acknowledges other denominations as brothers in Christ and they will gain eternal salvation also? I tried a search on the Catechism web-site but I think I was entering the wrong key words in the search engine. IF my memory is correct about this then it makes me sad that they hate the Catholic Church but the Catholic Doctrine (dogma?) says to love/accept them and their beliefs.

Wounds to unity
817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity
820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

My point is I am not going to judge the Catholics, Baptist, Methodist etc. etc. doctrines because according to Protestant beliefs we can believe whatever we want from scripture as long as we believe the Holy Spirit is guiding us and we are good people. A Catholic believes revealed truth as it has been handed down in Scripture and Tradition. A Protestant believes in whatever he chooses. Don't get me wrong, I've met many good, holy Protestants. I am not going to throw stones at you or point out the speck in your eye when I have a plank in mine. I think you would agree with me (if your an honest person) the Catholic Church needed some reforming.

Do you mean condone abortion, same sex "marriage" contraception and other evils as "reform"?, Or do you mean sex abuse prevention?

You said in your post: "For once I would like to see scholarly documentation..." I won't finish the rest of the sentence because I feel it was unnecessary, however, what people feel in their hearts can't be backed up by scholarly documentation. In their hearts they hate the Catholic faith and they can't back up hate with facts. I am not defending you, Kepha31, I am just trying to point out the unnecessary and unwarranted attacks by some. But I have also noticed you do push peoples buttons (as the saying goes).

Yup. People don't like getting a taste of their own medicine. The Church extends an olive branch (see above) and in return we are called idolatrors, Mary worshipers, Romanists, papists, Whore duh Babble-on etc., etc.

I have researched some of the things they have said about the Catholic Church and find MOST of it not accurate or half truthes. I think maybe they are reading anti-Catholic history books and accepting it as fact. But I suspect I am not telling you anything you didn't already know.

Yea, blind prejudice is a bitch, ain't it?

 

[tom55]

Do you mean condone abortion, same sex "marriage" contraception and other evils as "reform"?, Or do you mean sex abuse prevention?

I think I get your point. As a Protestant we can believe in same sex marriage and condone abortion as long as the Holy Spirit guides us in interpreting scripture that way. (such as life doesn't begin until you take your first breath: Genesis 2:7) That is truly the weakness of Protestantism. One can interpret scripture any way one wants as long as one feels the Holy Spirit inspired them. That means there is no truth or authority in scripture; except my truth. That makes me a church of one.

The Reformation seems to have divided Christ's body into 30,000 different bodies (churches) and it is no longer the one body that Christ wanted. We are sheep that have been scattered because we don't believe God left a shepherd (he abandoned us). For the record, I don't believe He has!!

From what I have been reading about the history of Christianity, Catholicism has a long record of having a shepherd and it appears to be of the same body even though it is made up of many members (1Corinthians 12:12). I can't find that same history with Protestantism or any other church except maybe the Orthodox Churches. I credit the people on this website who have been attacking the Catholic Church with educating me about the history and unity of the Church. I had to research their attacks which led me to seeing the long history of Catholicism and how it still follows early Church teachings/practices such as from the Didache.

I feel bad for you or any other Catholics on this website that get attacked for your belief. I assure you not all of us here support their historical ignorance and hatred.

 

[tom55]

Who has it?
Why, Jesus has it. He has always had it.
Maybe you didn't get the memo. Jesus is not dead.

You keep wanting some man to tell you what to do, what to believe. Why?? Don't you have a Bible? Don't you know how to pray?
If you are a Christian, you have the Holy Spirit of God inside of you. Among other things, it is the Spirit's job to keep you in mind of the the things Jesus taught.

You (and many others) think you can read scripture, interpret the truth from it and figure out what the truth is on your own.

I don't want, as you suggest, a man to tell me what to believe. If I follow someONE else's interpretation of scripture or my own interpretation I am still following someONE.

It's just a matter of figuring out who is right and who has the authority to reveal the truth of scripture. Because as we know scripture is the truth. We can't all have our own truths. This has led too, as you TheBarrd has pointed out before, 30,000 different churches.

Scripture disagrees with your belief that YOU can read the bible and discern the truth by yourself therefor your belief is not scriptural.

 

[Barrd]

You (and many others) think you can read scripture, interpret the truth from it and figure out what the truth is on your own.

I don't want, as you suggest, a man to tell me what to believe. If I follow someONE else's interpretation of scripture or my own interpretation I am still following someONE.

It's just a matter of figuring out who is right and who has the authority to reveal the truth of scripture. Because as we know scripture is the truth. We can't all have our own truths. This has led too, as you TheBarrd has pointed out before, 30,000 different churches.

Scripture disagrees with your belief that YOU can read the bible and discern the truth by yourself therefor your belief is not scriptural.

That is exactly what I do NOT think, Tom.
Unless I let Jesus guide me by the Holy Spirit, I cannot discern the truth.

My Lord and my Savior is Jesus Christ. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Jesus is perfect.
Man is fallible.

And that is why there are so many denominations.

Too many teachers, not enough students. Lots of chiefs...not enough Indians...

 

[Barrd]

Either Jesus established a visible, hierarchical, infallible earthly church, or the Apostles suddenly flew up to heaven to teach and baptize from heaven. We know Jesus is head of the Church. He is also head of the church on earth, and has the authority to appoint a representative on earth. A spiritualized church cannot bind and loose. That is a physical act that requires authority. But to spiritualize the earthly leadership that Jesus established does violence to scripture and all of Christian history. The whole New Testament is peppered with clear indications of Peter's leadership. I have 75 verses.

You'd think, then, that it would have been Peter who wrote so much of the NT. But, for some reason, Paul's letters were chosen as canon.

"It is the Spirit's job to keep you in mind of the the things Jesus taught." is not in the Bible. Conviction, yes, but that is not teaching. It's a man made tradition. It is the Spirit's job to remind the Church of the the things Jesus taught, and it is the Church's job to teach us, not private individuals with thousands of "holy Spirits" with conflicting teachings. And not all that Jesus taught is in the Bible.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus ought to know what He's talking about, don't you think?

What you and most Protestants cannot understand is how the Holy Spirit can infallibly superintend fallible human beings, yet you unquestioningly accept the canon of the new Testament as infallible. This is a gross inconsistency.

Actually, it is my opinion that there are books that should have made the cut that were left out. I don't think the canon is infallible.

The Church taught the truth at the council of Nicae in 325 AD, in spite of the fact that 80% of the bishops fell for the Arian heresy. That is the Church's infallibility at work, guided by the Holy Spirit, protecting her from teaching error. Council of Ephesus, defending the Incarnation against heresy. And all the councils down through history, protected from teaching error.

If I believed in the infallibility of the Church, I'd be a Catholic. However, I believe that the Church has some history she's going to have to answer for.

I raised the question twice, "could someone please tell me the exact encyclical or council when the Church went off the rails, became corrupt, unbiblical and false." No answer has come forth, because it would take work. But there are plenty of unsubstantiated opinions and baseless assertions about the nature of the Catholic Church and her authority, which all discussions ultimately boil down to.

When did the church go "off the rails"? Let's see...there were the Crusades. Yes, they started for a good reason...but they ended up being a power grab. There were the Inquisitions....brrr. Of course, you'll want to tell me about Protestant Inquisitions, as if spreading the guilt somehow makes the "infallible" Church less guilty.
Then there were all the corrupt popes...but let's not discuss their private lives, yes?
And all the priests who have molested children...for awhile there it got a bit messy, didn't it?
The bloodshed in Ireland...but we Celts can be hot-headed, yes?
Etc, etc, etc.

And I say no man can rule over God's Kingdom by himself, and without God. Even the most corrupt popes never made a ruling.

And I say that no man can rule over God's Kingdom, period. Just the fact that there have been corrupt popes makes my point for me.

Jer. 33:17 For thus saith the Lord: There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel.

Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Or the King of the Jews sits on His throne.
The Jews thought to throw Him off of His throne once before, remember?

1Sa 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

To this day, they continue to look for a human Messiah.

And, evidently, so do some Christians...

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.

Didn't Jesus say that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church?
Notice....HIS church. HE is the Head of it.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

We have a High Priest...

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Kepha, you are my brother in Christ, and I do love you.
I just cannot agree with you on these things...

 

[tom55]

That is exactly what I do NOT think, Tom.
Unless I let Jesus guide me by the Holy Spirit, I cannot discern the truth.
My Lord and my Savior is Jesus Christ. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Jesus is perfect.
Man is fallible.
And that is why there are so many denominations.
Too many teachers, not enough students. Lots of chiefs...not enough Indians...

You just made my point but it seems you are disagreeing with me when you say, "That is exactly what I do NOT think...". So now I am confused.

I agree with you that the reason "there are so many denominations" is because there are "too many teachers" and "not enough students".

The reason there are "lots of chiefs and not enough Indians" is because EVERYONE (including you) thinks they can read the bible and the Holy Spirit is guiding them to "discern the truth". That belief is not based on scripture. I don't believe God gave us the truth and then said now everybody go figure out your own truth. I don't believe he abandoned us.

Scripture says completely the opposite. Scripture says the church is the pillar and foundation of truth; not individual man. Scripture even tells us that it is hard to understand and will be twisted by men. Some of scripture is hard to understand and has been twisted by men which is why we have so many denominations and twisted scripture coming from places like the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

[Barrd]

You just made my point but it seems you are disagreeing with me when you say, "That is exactly what I do NOT think...". So now I am confused.

I agree with you that the reason "there are so many denominations" is because there are "too many teachers" and "not enough students".

The reason there are "lots of chiefs and not enough Indians" is because EVERYONE (including you) thinks they can read the bible and the Holy Spirit is guiding them to "discern the truth". That belief is not based on scripture. I don't believe God gave us the truth and then said now everybody go figure out your own truth. I don't believe he abandoned us.

Scripture says completely the opposite. Scripture says the church is the pillar and foundation of truth; not individual man. Scripture even tells us that it is hard to understand and will be twisted by men. Some of scripture is hard to understand and has been twisted by men which is why we have so many denominations and twisted scripture coming from places like the Westboro Baptist Church.

God certainly did not abandon us.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

What a precious promise! Jesus, Himself, will not leave us comfortless: He will come to us!

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

I trust Him.
Do you?

Where does Scripture say that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth?
If you mean 1 Tim 3:15, it speaks of the Church of God. God is the Head of it, not a man.

 

[Barrd]

kepha31, on 10 Jan 2016 - 04:33 AM, said:

Either Jesus established a visible, hierarchical, infallible earthly church, or the Apostles suddenly flew up to heaven to teach and baptize from heaven. We know Jesus is head of the Church. He is also head of the church on earth, and has the authority to appoint a representative on earth. A spiritualized church cannot bind and loose. That is a physical act that requires authority. But to spiritualize the earthly leadership that Jesus established does violence to scripture and all of Christian history. The whole New Testament is peppered with clear indications of Peter's leadership. I have 75 verses.

You'd think, then, that it would have been Peter who wrote so much of the NT. But, for some reason, Paul's letters were chosen as canon.


Quote

"It is the Spirit's job to keep you in mind of the the things Jesus taught." is not in the Bible. Conviction, yes, but that is not teaching. It's a man made tradition. It is the Spirit's job to remind the Church of the the things Jesus taught, and it is the Church's job to teach us, not private individuals with thousands of "holy Spirits" with conflicting teachings. And not all that Jesus taught is in the Bible.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus ought to know what He's talking about, don't you think?


Quote

What you and most Protestants cannot understand is how the Holy Spirit can infallibly superintend fallible human beings, yet you unquestioningly accept the canon of the new Testament as infallible. This is a gross inconsistency.

Actually, it is my opinion that there are books that should have made the cut that were left out. I don't think the canon is infallible.


Quote

The Church taught the truth at the council of Nicae in 325 AD, in spite of the fact that 80% of the bishops fell for the Arian heresy. That is the Church's infallibility at work, guided by the Holy Spirit, protecting her from teaching error. Council of Ephesus, defending the Incarnation against heresy. And all the councils down through history, protected from teaching error.

If I believed in the infallibility of the Church, I'd be a Catholic. However, I believe that the Church has some history she's going to have to answer for.


Quote

I raised the question twice, "could someone please tell me the exact encyclical or council when the Church went off the rails, became corrupt, unbiblical and false." No answer has come forth, because it would take work. But there are plenty of unsubstantiated opinions and baseless assertions about the nature of the Catholic Church and her authority, which all discussions ultimately boil down to.

When did the church go "off the rails"? Let's see...there were the Crusades. Yes, they started for a good reason...but they ended up being a power grab. There were the Inquisitions....brrr. Of course, you'll want to tell me about Protestant Inquisitions, as if spreading the guilt somehow makes the "infallible" Church less guilty.
Then there were all the corrupt popes...but let's not discuss their private lives, yes?
And all the priests who have molested children...for awhile there it got a bit messy, didn't it?
The bloodshed in Ireland...but we Celts can be hot-headed, yes?
Etc, etc, etc.


Quote

And I say no man can rule over God's Kingdom by himself, and without God. Even the most corrupt popes never made a ruling.

And I say that no man can rule over God's Kingdom, period. Just the fact that there have been corrupt popes makes my point for me.


Quote

Jer. 33:17 For thus saith the Lord: There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel.

Jeremiah prophesies that David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the earthly House of Israel. Either this is a false prophecy, or David has a successor of representatives throughout history.

Or the King of the Jews sits on His throne.
The Jews thought to throw Him off of His throne once before, remember?

1Sa 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,
1Sa 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
1Sa 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.
1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

To this day, they continue to look for a human Messiah.

And, evidently, so do some Christians...

Quote

Dan. 2:44 But in the days of those kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people, and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms, and itself shall stand for ever.

Daniel prophesies an earthly kingdom that will never be destroyed. Either this is a false prophecy, or the earthly kingdom requires succession.

Didn't Jesus say that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church?
Notice....HIS church. HE is the Head of it.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

We have a High Priest...

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Kepha, you are my brother in Christ, and I do love you.
I just cannot agree with you on these things...