Name a really bad doctrine that needs retiring

[Angelina]

If you would like to discuss some of these topics in greater detail, please create another thread....

Thanks

 

[Chopper]

Hey Chopper...almost didn't recognize ya!

Ha Ha, yea, 90 degree heat with 80% humidity, beard goes!

 

[StanJ]

Ha Ha, yea, 90 degree heat with 80% humidity, beard goes!

I understand, but I live in a walk out which is very cool in the summer and I do very little that warrants me sweating. ^_^ I did trim it down a bit.

 

[Chopper]

Precisely. We're given a body. A body is necessary for human perfection. The new kingdom comes down to the new earth. Adam and Eve were made from the dirt. Our new bodies will equally be dirt. And they will be glorious. Before resurrection, so before your new body, how do you "enter the kingdom of heaven"? When you have no eyes, what does that kingdom look like? When you have no legs, how do you use the golden streets?

Ha, Ha, quite right Tex, we're only dirt bags.

 

[StanJ]

Ha, Ha, quite right Tex, we're only dirt bags.

Now that is punny!

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Because He is TURTH, and does not accept anything but....
Yes I agree, but most people don't KNOW and then sometimes react vehemently when confronted with the truth.

Thanks, u 2 Randor...
When we die, before Jesus returns, we will go to the same place Abraham, Lazarus and the good thief on the cross went...Paradise.
Heaven is for God and the angels only...it was never meant for His creation...nor frogs!

When you first criticized the common belief that we go directly to heaven after dying, I thought you were going in a completely different direction, something having to do with the time sequence by which all men are judged at the same time, the dead in Christ raised to eternal life and all others raised to perdition.

Paul's belief that "to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ" certainly is a cause for confusion, not only in the context of the timeline I alluded to, but also in regard to your argument that paradise and heaven are two separate places. It's hard to reconcile a lot of what people are expecting in the next life based on scattered scriptures.

But if paradise were a physical place, which I agree it will be, much like the Garden of Eden, and Jesus is eternally incarnate, then why would Jesus be anywhere else except among renewed creation and the people he has saved? He spent his entire earthly ministry enthronged by people and it just makes sense that much would be the same in eternity.

Anyway, I'm not fully agreeing or disagreeing with you, just throwing out some other thoughts I have. Paul was right in that we see in a mirror dimly right now. I do appreciate your viewpoint.

 

[StanJ]

When you first criticized the common belief that we go directly to heaven after dying, I thought you were going in a completely different direction, something having to do with the time sequence by which all men are judged at the same time, the dead in Christ raised to eternal life and all others raised to perdition.

Paul's belief that "to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ" certainly is a cause for confusion, not only in the context of the timeline I alluded to, but also in regard to your argument that paradise and heaven are two separate places. It's hard to reconcile a lot of what people are expecting in the next life based on scattered scriptures.

But if paradise were a physical place, which I agree it will be, much like the Garden of Eden, and Jesus is eternally incarnate, then why would Jesus be anywhere else except among renewed creation and the people he has saved? He spent his entire earthly ministry enthronged by people and it just makes sense that much would be the same in eternity.

Anyway, I'm not fully agreeing or disagreeing with you, just throwing out some other thoughts I have. Paul was right in that we see in a mirror dimly right now. I do appreciate your viewpoint.

Paul actually said; We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8
This is not a statement of teaching, but a prayer of longing. V9-10 shows what will happen. The KJV does not render this in the proper idiom.

Paradise is NOT a physical place, it is a spiritual place. Heaven is only for God. The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ's rule on earth. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us. There will be a 1000 years reign of Jesus on earth, but the ultimate if the NEW earth and the NEW Jerusalem where we will live with God for Eternity.

 

[lforrest]

Paul actually said; We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8
This is not a statement of teaching, but a prayer of longing. V9-10 shows what will happen. The KJV does not render this in the proper idiom.

Paradise is NOT a physical place, it is a spiritual place. Heaven is only for God. The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ's rule on earth. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us. There will be a 1000 years reign of Jesus on earth, but the ultimate if the NEW earth and the NEW Jerusalem where we will live with God for Eternity.

Strange, I would use 2 Cor 5:8 to argue that the kingdom of heaven is within us. Isn't this how fasting works?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Paul actually said; We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:8
This is not a statement of teaching, but a prayer of longing. V9-10 shows what will happen. The KJV does not render this in the proper idiom.

Paradise is NOT a physical place, it is a spiritual place. Heaven is only for God. The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ's rule on earth. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us. There will be a 1000 years reign of Jesus on earth, but the ultimate if the NEW earth and the NEW Jerusalem where we will live with God for Eternity.

The millennium? Speaking of really bad doctrines.....

Jesus told Dismas (the thief on the cross) that he would be together with him that day in paradise. The problem from my view is that everyone thinks their view of eternal life is unassailable, but it's so easy to shoot holes right through it because the Bible gives us many hints but no coherent blueprint. That tells me that heaven will be too wonderful for carnal minds to comprehend and that's a good thing. In the end, I agree with you that heaven will be paradise, the redemption and restoration of creation and the "proof" of that is in Genesis 1:31 that says the Lord looked upon all he had made and saw that it was good. I read a lot into "good"; I read pluperfect, not insufficient in any way, creation at it's very best. The new heavens and new earth will be paradise restored.

I've found it wisest to have fun speculating about what's to come but to hold loosely to our theories because we haven't stepped across that veil and the very best foreknowledge we have are just clues.

 

[StanJ]

Strange, I would use 2 Cor 5:8 to argue that the kingdom of heaven is within us. Isn't this how fasting works?

Sorry you've lost me. The Kingdom of Heaven is the rule of Christ. Fasting is another issue, but not something I think should be retired from the church.

The millennium? Speaking of really bad doctrines.....

Jesus told Dismas (the thief on the cross) that he would be together with him that day in paradise. The problem from my view is that everyone thinks their view of eternal life is unassailable, but it's so easy to shoot holes right through it because the Bible gives us many hints but no coherent blueprint. That tells me that heaven will be too wonderful for carnal minds to comprehend and that's a good thing. In the end, I agree with you that heaven will be paradise, the redemption and restoration of creation and the "proof" of that is in Genesis 1:31 that says the Lord looked upon all he had made and saw that it was good. I read a lot into "good"; I read pluperfect, not insufficient in any way, creation at it's very best. The new heavens and new earth will be paradise restored.

I've found it wisest to have fun speculating about what's to come but to hold loosely to our theories because we haven't stepped across that veil and the very best foreknowledge we have are just clues.

So, you don't accept the account in Rev 20:1-6?

Yes that is what Jesus told him and what happened. Paradise is NOT a place of Eternal Life. It is the place where those who will inherit eternal life await. When Jesus returns, ALL those who are dead in Christ will be resurrected and TOGETHER with those who are alive in Christ, will meet him in the air. 1 Thess 4:13-18

In this matter, the Bible does NOT speculate, and neither should we.

 

[Tex]

Oh ya, that is another bad doctrine. Total historical outlook at the book of Revelation, including things like historical "Millennial kingdom", lake of fire, rapture, or any of that badly interpreted mess of doctrine.

Blah!

 

[StanJ]

Oh ya, that is another bad doctrine. Total historical outlook at the book of Revelation, including things like historical "Millennial kingdom", lake of fire, rapture, or any of that badly interpreted mess of doctrine.

Blah!

Any particulars? Are you anti-preterist? I would have no problem with their dogma going.

 

[Tex]

The 144,000 is not historical, the 1000 year reign is not historical, a sword coming out of Jesus' mouth is not historical, etc.

I'm not preterist or anti-preterist. Most of Revelation has already happened, but not all. Much of it describes the Last Day, but I will claim that the descriptions of the last day are allegorical. John was not writing a historical account of the future.

 

[StanJ]

The 144,000 is not historical, the 1000 year reign is not historical, a sword coming out of Jesus' mouth is not historical, etc.

I'm not preterist or anti-preterist. Most of Revelation has already happened, but not all. Much of it describes the Last Day, but I will claim that the descriptions of the last day are allegorical. John was not writing a historical account of the future.

Yep, still to happen, which is why I don't understand your assertion that most of Revelation HAS happened?
No I agree, John was writing the last Revelation of Jesus Christ. It still has not happened.

 

[Tex]

Well, for example, Revelation 12 is about Christ's birth and other dodads that have happened. I'll make a new thread on Revelation in Christian Debate. We'll discuss more there.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Sorry you've lost me. The Kingdom of Heaven is the rule of Christ. Fasting is another issue, but not something I think should be retired from the church.

So, you don't accept the account in Rev 20:1-6?

Yes that is what Jesus told him and what happened. Paradise is NOT a place of Eternal Life. It is the place where those who will inherit eternal life await. When Jesus returns, ALL those who are dead in Christ will be resurrected and TOGETHER with those who are alive in Christ, will meet him in the air. 1 Thess 4:13-18

In this matter, the Bible does NOT speculate, and neither should we.

Await? I think you're stuck in the linear/temporal/sequential mindset of those of us stuck in time. It may be surprising, but those who die cease to be constrained by time and sequence that they need to "wait" for the rest of us. God exists outside of time, seeing the beginning from the end and is not subject to chronological order like we are. Paradise exists outside of time, so no, there is no waiting there. It takes a great deal of imagination to think of a reality outside of time and not subject to its constraints, but with some effort it's possible. There's absolutely no reason to believe that Dismas or any other of the dead in Christ are still subject to time like we are.

 

[StanJ]

Await? I think you're stuck in the linear/temporal/sequential mindset of those of us stuck in time. It may be surprising, but those who die cease to be constrained by time and sequence that they need to "wait" for the rest of us. God exists outside of time, seeing the beginning from the end and is not subject to chronological order like we are. Paradise exists outside of time, so no, there is no waiting there. It takes a great deal of imagination to think of a reality outside of time and not subject to its constraints, but with some effort it's possible. There's absolutely no reason to believe that Dismas or any other of the dead in Christ are still subject to time like we are.

Yes GOD exists outside of time, but we don't and neither does Paradise. Those in paradise are still constrained by where they are, and I see no indication in scripture that they aren't. They are subject to time because they will be raised AGAIN, on that day, and will reign with Jesus in the 1000 years reign and will LIVE forever. That's time. God will live in the NEW Jerusalem FOREVER...that's time. It's also good to not let your imagination run wild on you.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Yes GOD exists outside of time, but we don't and neither does Paradise. Those in paradise are still constrained by where they are, and I see no indication in scripture that they aren't. They are subject to time because they will be raised AGAIN, on that day, and will reign with Jesus in the 1000 years reign and will LIVE forever. That's time. God will live in the NEW Jerusalem FOREVER...that's time. It's also good to not let your imagination run wild on you.

Imagination is the only way to conceive the fact that there exists a reality outside of time. You say that paradise is constrained by time, I say that it isn't because those who have died are no longer in time. In fact, the only way for people to be with Christ after death (remember even the NT Christians thought of it as sleeping) and part of the Church Triumphant is precisely because they've stepped out of time and sequence, not having to wait like the rest of us. Because of this, they have been raised already from the dead even though, from our perspective, it's an event yet to occur. This is what I mean by imagining reality outside of time. And it's not just wild, it's invigorating.

 

[StanJ]

Imagination is the only way to conceive the fact that there exists a reality outside of time. You say that paradise is constrained by time, I say that it isn't because those who have died are no longer in time. In fact, the only way for people to be with Christ after death (remember even the NT Christians thought of it as sleeping) and part of the Church Triumphant is precisely because they've stepped out of time and sequence, not having to wait like the rest of us. Because of this, they have been raised already from the dead even though, from our perspective, it's an event yet to occur. This is what I mean by imagining reality outside of time. And it's not just wild, it's invigorating.

Actually reading God's word will show us very clearly that God never existed in time until He decided to. Having no beginning or end obviously conveys a being outside of time and not bound to it. I've know this since I was a teenager.
Paradise exists in time as Jesus showed and will remain there until Jesus returns at THE Resurrection when Jesus returns. Paul teaches very clearly in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 that they are NOT resurrected until that day.
This life IS reality, and so is Eternal Life. Not sure why you think it isn't?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Actually reading God's word will show us very clearly that God never existed in time until He decided to. Having no beginning or end obviously conveys a being outside of time and not bound to it. I've know this since I was a teenager.
Paradise exists in time as Jesus showed and will remain there until Jesus returns at THE Resurrection when Jesus returns. Paul teaches very clearly in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 that they are NOT resurrected until that day.
This life IS reality, and so is Eternal Life. Not sure why you think it isn't?

You'll have a very difficult task attempting to find biblical proof that heaven is constrained by time just as earth is. In fact, the Bible presents evidence of things that have happened that haven't happened yet, as I alluded too in the "cloud of witnesses" reference to the Old Testament saints. Was Abraham raised from the dead? Or Abel, Noah, or Sara? And yet they are said to have seen the promise from far off and confess they are pilgrims on earth. The two realities could not be clearer, the epiphany of the OT saints that couldn't possibly have occurred, and yet it has, because in heaven they've already been raised to eternal life. In the parable Jesus told of Lazareth and the rich man, we see paradise personified in the bosom of Abraham. He isn't dead, but alive. And if that wasn't enough, Jesus struck home when he refuted the Sadducees in their belief that the dead aren't raised, reminding them of the Scripture that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as he told Moses in the burning bush; that he is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

So if the Bible clearly teaches us that the saints are living and not dead, how can that be if they are not yet raised from the dead? The only rational explanation is that they are both raised from the dead and waiting to be raised from the dead and both realities exist concurrently. To us it's an event yet to come, to heaven, it's already occurred. There's no other explanation that fits.