Neither shall they say Look here! or Look there!

[daq]

I know that the Lord will return literally and that return will be in a literal body that every eye will see.

It is not even about the physical in the passages referenced in the OP because in the context of the Luke companion passage the Master says that "first he must suffer many things and be rejected of this generation" which is most clearly and certainly a reference to his crucifixion death at Golgotha. Thus, even in the context where Yeshua foretells them all things concerning his parousia with the clouds, which the prophet Daniel likewise "saw" in a vision, (Daniel 7:13) he informs them that first it is necessary that he lay down the physical at Calvary:

Matthew 24:23-28 KJV
23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25. Behold, I have told you before.
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Mark 13:20-23 KJV
20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Luke 17:20-25 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

And once again your doctrinal statement based in flesh ignores the clear emphatic warnings of Yeshua.

 

[ENOCH2010]

What if I interpret that scripture to also mean if someone teaches that Christ isn't going to return physically, only spiritually. Should I believe them not..... I think so!!

 

[Pelaides]

With forehead representing the place of the mind, this speaks, on one level, of the mind of Christ in you, here and now.

His name shall be on, in, or upon their foreheads (depending on which translation you use).

You have heard it said, name = nature? So, name in their foreheads is: His nature in their foreheads.

This speaks of when one has left their habitual, discursive, natural-mind, "sin nature" consciousness and has moved into being centered in and "operating" from the mind of Christ consciousness. Which all happens within you...a movement of awareness from the default carnal center to The Divine Kingdom within; a movement of your awareness from being centered in the natural mind to being IMMERSED in the mind of Christ/in the Divine nature. In other words, IN CHRIST.

Bonus: You have heard it said, believe in the name of the Lord? This says, believe into the nature of Christ.

Advanced Bonus: Perhaps from the above, one can connect the dots and glimpse what the "mark of the beast" in the forehead is actually talking about. h34r:

The problem with you people who read and interpret the bible symbolically,is that,you can twist and turn the words to make it meen whatever you want it to.Peter warned us about making private interpretations of scripture.

Hi Pelaides,


I gave you a rep for pointing out that Jesus has already returned in bodily form.

Seeing God face to face is a subject that goes way back in scripture, so I think it's quite important to take into account that long before Jesus came, psalmists talked about seeking God's face, meaning, seeking to know more of Him.
Hello dragonfly it is good to see you are still with us,I have not seen you write anything in quite awhile.Daq seems to think that it is impossible for Christ to return in a bodily form,after his crucifixtion.I thought Luke 24:39,40 would prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that christ was in his original human body.I am hoping some of the moderators would comment on this topic.
If you think about it, when the Bible says that 'Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord', it is very much suggesting that Noah and God could see each other. daq may have a comment about that, because he knows whether the Hebrew is saying 'see with eyes', or 'see with insight'. Without doubt, God can see each of us all the time whether it is day or night (light or dark).

Whether we see God with the eyes of our inner vision (our heart's eyes) depends on whether our heart is seeking to be in His presence (as it should be) and being in His presence the whole time by His Spirit. I believe this is what Paul is referring to in 2 Corinthians 3:18.

In the very next chapter, Paul refers to 'the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ'. 2 Cor 4:6

In the chapter following, (already quoted above by daq), Paul says:

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Paul is not saying we don't know Christ any more because we cannot see His body. He is saying not only can we see Him with the eyes of our inner man by the Holy Spirit, but we know Him that way, too (which is much more than seeing with the eyes in the front of your head).




Hi Enoch,


Apart from the fact that the phrase 'sin nature' appears nowhere in scripture, surely it is clear to you that sin is very literal, because Jesus Christ came for the sole purpose of doing away with sin. And He did.

If you can begin to understand that Jesus Christ embodied God's values completely all the time in everything He thought and did without fault or flaw, you can, perhaps, begin to see that this is what He is after in us: a demonstration of having taken His mind (heart), attitudes, values into our own hearts, to be lived out moment by moment according to His life within us by His Spirit. Paul writing in Romans 6, puts it this way:

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God,
as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

It is not even about the physical in the passages referenced in the OP because in the context of the Luke companion passage the Master says that "first he must suffer many things and be rejected of this generation" which is most clearly and certainly a reference to his crucifixion death at Golgotha. Thus, even in the context where Yeshua foretells them all things concerning his parousia with the clouds, which the prophet Daniel likewise "saw" in a vision, (Daniel 7:13) he informs them that first it is necessary that he lay down the physical at Calvary:

Matthew 24:23-28 KJV
23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25. Behold, I have told you before.
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Mark 13:20-23 KJV
20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Luke 17:20-25 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

And once again your doctrinal statement based in flesh ignores the clear emphatic warnings of Yeshua.

Just out of curiosity,do you believe in heaven and hell?or are they symbolic also?

 

[daq]

What if I interpret that scripture to also mean if someone teaches that Christ isn't going to return physically, only spiritually. Should I believe them not..... I think so!!

What if? Well I suppose that would mean it only reveals that you believe what is right in your own eyes because you believe what your teachers have taught you over and above what the Word states. The same appears to be the case concerning what it means to be "saved" taking what men teach instead of what Scripture has to say about such critical matters. A perfect example is how the modern shepherds, pastors, and preachers have taken what it means to "call upon the name of the Lord" out of its proper Scripture context and created their own alternate context, at the foot of their own altars and podiums, complete with emotional tear-jerking altar calls and penitent sinners praying the sinners prayer beneath their altars and podiums at their feet. However that is not what the Scripture says nor concerns because no man can pick and choose the day of his salvation. Likewise these things clearly occurred unexpectedly, without warning, and were fearful and terrifying things; life, limb, and soul were in danger: blood and fire, pillars of smoke, the sun turned to darkness and the moon into blood, and he that endures to the end shall be saved, and whosoever shall seek to save his soul shall destroy it, and whosoever shall destroy his soul for the sake of Messiah shall find it. Did any of this happen to you when you claim to have been saved? How was it that you called upon the name of the Lord when your soul was not in danger to begin with? These things concern visions and dreams in the manner that God quite often deals with his people:

Acts 2:13-21 KJV
13. Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Altar calls and sinners prayers of true repentance are not necessarily wrong but they are only the beginning wherein a true disciple is sealed with the Holy Spirit of the Promise unto the future coming day of the redemption of the purchased possession, (we are the possession which is eventually redeemed from the earth). Likewise Cornelius had to await his own appointed times, (already having the baptism-immersion of John) and a messenger of the Lord appeared to him in a vision:

Acts 10:1-4 KJV
1. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.

Believe what you will but I have the Scripture to back up what I know to be true. And when anyone that comes along claiming to have already been "saved", yet not having the testimony of his own Patmos-Killing to offer up, I generally refrain from fully partaking in that testimony because he is yet a "live goat" with his own blood still coursing through his veins. "Rise, Peter; slay and eat!" (and Cornelius with his household is the meaning of the vision). And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God; for Peter came up to Jerusalem and brought with him the testimony of Cornelius and his household, setting forth that testimony before the apostles, disciples, and brethren of the Jerusalem congregation. And when they heard those things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Thus the apostles and brethren at Jerusalem partook of the testimony of Cornelius as if it were spiritual food because it was a living sacrifice to the glory of God.

The problem with you people who read and interpret the bible symbolically,is that,you can twist and turn the words to make it meen whatever you want it to.Peter warned us about making private interpretations of scripture.

"Rise, Peter; slay and eat!" :lol:
How can one who ignores the words of Yeshua understand Peter?
Indeed you have your own private interpretations handed down from your teachers.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Pelaides,

May I offer you something to think about, as part of the answer to your questions which daq has not yet addressed (about heaven and hell)?

It is this... that 'symbols' (You used the word 'symbolically'.) are images or word pictures or objects which stand in the place of something MORE REAL but not visible to the naked eye.

This 'more real' element of being is everywhere in everything and always present as well as past and future and timeless. I mean, eternal reality.

If you could begin to understand that daq is not talking about symbols at all, but about another realm of reality completely, which is yet to be made manifest in full, it would help you to understand his warnings. This natural world as we see it, is going to be radically changed one day. In other words, the natural reality around us as we see it now, is going to cease. Scripture says - that is, the prophets fortell - that the Creator is going to fold it up and put it away like a garment, and it will be changed. Likewise, we also, who know the Lord, will be changed (if we are still alive at that moment). (Those who have 'fallen asleep' in the Lord are already with Him.) This is a greater reality than the life and the world which you see around you, because being part of it through the Holy Spirit, (which brings the Father and the Son to dwell in us, John 14:23, John 17) has the power to keep your soul until it is clothed with immortality and incorruption for ever. If your focus is on the natural world - what you can see with your eyes and hear with your outer ears - you will keep missing the inner message of scripture which is commonly (and was) understood by centuries of believers before us.

What daq is showing, by the responses to his posts, is that you are not alone in your unfamiliarity with these thoughts which come straight from the Bible. For instance, when Jesus said, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand', who is it who becomes aware of the kingdom of heaven? Does everyone? Or do only those who listen carefully to His instructions, and 'walk in His steps' (as Peter puts it in his first epistle ch 2)?

How did Peter introduce the crowd to these concepts on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2)? He said: Repent, believe, be baptised, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. If you are not experiencing the kingdom of heaven already, what would give you the idea that you will experience it after you die? If you are not experiencing the kingdom of heaven, is that because you have not followed the teachings of the Messiah?

I'm not asking you to answser these questions publicly, but if you answer them before God with an honest heart, and obey what you already know to do, He will come to you and make His abode with you, just as He promised. Then you will begin to see with your inner eyes and hear with your inner ears, and perceive that realm of greater reality than the one around us naturally, which seems hidden from you at this time.

 

[Pelaides]

Hi Pelaides,

May I offer you something to think about, as part of the answer to your questions which daq has not yet addressed (about heaven and hell)?

It is this... that 'symbols' (You used the word 'symbolically'.) are images or word pictures or objects which stand in the place of something MORE REAL but not visible to the naked eye.

This 'more real' element of being is everywhere in everything and always present as well as past and future and timeless. I mean, eternal reality.

If you could begin to understand that daq is not talking about symbols at all, but about another realm of reality completely, which is yet to be made manifest in full, it would help you to understand his warnings. This natural world as we see it, is going to be radically changed one day. In other words, the natural reality around us as we see it now, is going to cease. Scripture says - that is, the prophets fortell - that the Creator is going to fold it up and put it away like a garment, and it will be changed. Likewise, we also, who know the Lord, will be changed (if we are still alive at that moment). (Those who have 'fallen asleep' in the Lord are already with Him.) This is a greater reality than the life and the world which you see around you, because being part of it through the Holy Spirit, (which brings the Father and the Son to dwell in us, John 14:23, John 17) has the power to keep your soul until it is clothed with immortality and incorruption for ever. If your focus is on the natural world - what you can see with your eyes and hear with your outer ears - you will keep missing the inner message of scripture which is commonly (and was) understood by centuries of believers before us.

What daq is showing, by the responses to his posts, is that you are not alone in your unfamiliarity with these thoughts which come straight from the Bible. For instance, when Jesus said, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand', who is it who becomes aware of the kingdom of heaven? Does everyone? Or do only those who listen carefully to His instructions, and 'walk in His steps' (as Peter puts it in his first epistle ch 2)?

How did Peter introduce the crowd to these concepts on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2)? He said: Repent, believe, be baptised, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. If you are not experiencing the kingdom of heaven already, what would give you the idea that you will experience it after you die? If you are not experiencing the kingdom of heaven, is that because you have not followed the teachings of the Messiah?

I'm not asking you to answser these questions publicly, but if you answer them before God with an honest heart, and obey what you already know to do, He will come to you and make His abode with you, just as He promised. Then you will begin to see with your inner eyes and hear with your inner ears, and perceive that realm of greater reality than the one around us naturally, which seems hidden from you at this time.

This is the only warning that i am concerned about.

Revelation22:18-19 "For i testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophesy of this book,if any man shall add unto these things,God shall add unto him the plagues of this book:and ifany man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophesy,God shall take away his part out of the book of life,and out of the holy city,and from the things that are written in this book".

2 peter1:20,21 "Knowing this first,that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophesy came not in oldtime by the will of man:but by holy men of god spake,as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

So you can proceed to read the Bible with your private interpretations,and altered state of reality at your own peril,but dont tell me to do the same.

I think its time for some of the moderators to shed some light on this subject.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Pelaides,

Can you see any connection between the message of Messiah (Repent!), the exhortation that Peter gave in Acts 2:38, and the following chapter (9) from Ezekiel?

1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. 2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. 3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not. 10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. 11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.


I've left the whole chapter so that you can see how God was thinking. How do you read the priority He expresses? (I really do mean a single sentence would sum it up, if you can do that.) Thanks.

Does this have any connection to the mark in the forehead mentioned in Revelation? Please explain if you can?

Again, thanks.

 

[Pelaides]

Hi Pelaides,

Can you see any connection between the message of Messiah (Repent!), the exhortation that Peter gave in Acts 2:38, and the following chapter (9) from Ezekiel?

1 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. 2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. 3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; 4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: 6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house. 7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem? 9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not. 10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head. 11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.


I've left the whole chapter so that you can see how God was thinking. How do you read the priority He expresses? (I really do mean a single sentence would sum it up, if you can do that.) Thanks.

Does this have any connection to the mark in the forehead mentioned in Revelation? Please explain if you can?

Again, thanks.

Your really getting off the original topic now,Daq stated that Jesus would not return in a bodily form.I then showed him Revelations 22:4, which says the elect will see christs face again,It seems to me that christ will indeed return in a bodily form.If angels appear in a bodily form,then why not Christ?

If you want someone to interpret the book of ezekial for you,then start another post.Im wondering why daq has become silent all of a sudden.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Pelaides,

I hope your foregoing reply is not the height and breadth and depth of your Bible study skills. I virtually gave you the answer to my very simple questions - the whole purpose being to help you understand my previous post and how it relates to your point about 'seeing' Christ - something the writer to the Hebrews states is the experience of believers already - which is exactly what this thread is about: that anyone saying 'look here', or 'look there' the Christ Himself says, 'don't believe them'!!!!!!

So... are you expecting to have the same physical body and eyes that you do now, when Revelation 22:4 takes place?

Is this what you are getting at?

 

[Dodo_David]

Folks, I want to remind everyone of a section that is in this site's rules:

"This community has a core set of beliefs that we clearly state at multiple locations on this website. However, we recognize that unity is Christ is the ultimate aim and this can be achieved even when there is disagreement on doctrinal issues. A good way to avoid this issue is to focus on the doctrine and not the person."

 

[Pelaides]

Hi Pelaides,

I hope your foregoing reply is not the height and breadth and depth of your Bible study skills. I virtually gave you the answer to my very simple questions - the whole purpose being to help you understand my previous post and how it relates to your point about 'seeing' Christ - something the writer to the Hebrews states is the experience of believers already - which is exactly what this thread is about: that anyone saying 'look here', or 'look there' the Christ Himself says, 'don't believe them'!!!!!!

So... are you expecting to have the same physical body and eyes that you do now, when Revelation 22:4 takes place?

Is this what you are getting at?

SOLA SCRIPTURA !

 

[dragonfly]

Is sola scriptura what Jesus said would save people (from eternal death)?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

One may believe that they are of another nature.
And as that man thinketh, so is he (Prov 23:7).
One's "sinful nature" persists as long as one thinks it so.
Hear Paul teach on sin, that it is something to be put off (Col 3:8).
Sin is more like a tattered shirt or an old shoe, than it is an inherent nature.

Man's philosophy devoid of the holy spirit that considers sin to be solely an act of man's will. This belief aligns with those of Charles Finney and Pelagius. Pelagianism was one of the most (if not the most) condemned heresies in the history of the church. Finney is largely responsible for the degenerate state of evangelicalism today.

The holy spirit witnesses that we have a sinful nature. Walking with GOD requires an acknowledgment of that fact, for how can two walk together except they be in agreement?

Please explain with Scripture how it is you know that one day everyone will see Yeshua returning to the earth with their physical eyes of the flesh when it is a direct contradiction to what Yeshua says of himself. ... According to the modern eschatology scholars Yeshua is going to return to the earth in a resurrected supernatural but physical body and rule over the earth from Jerusalem and a "millennial" temple for a thousand years. You may or may not believe every one of these things, or may have your own variations of the same events as most do, but this is the point of the thread and what the question concerns because Yeshua clearly and emphatically says that if anyone tells you such fleshly and physical things; "Go not after them!" for "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you!" and "Then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise".

It's very easy to explain with scripture that the lord will return corporeally.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even every one who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. ​Yes, amen. Revelation 1:7

Natural men don't have spiritual eyes, so this verse realistically cannot be given an allegorical interpretation. The only conflict it has with the 3 verses you mentioned above is due to the gloss that you are putting on them.

Two points:

1) A physical body can be either natural or spiritual. Both are able to be viewed and felt with the natural senses. The false physical/spiritual dialectic is gnostic in origin.

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. Luke 24:39-40

Then he said to Thomas, “Place your finger here and see my hands, and place your hand and put it into my side. And do not be unbelieving, but believing!” John 20:27

2) The teaching that there is no corporeal (bodily) resurrection is also gnostic in origin. This is the foundational concept of amillennialism, and it's origins probably originate with Hymenaeus, whom Paul called a blasphemer. Here is a literal translation of what Paul said he taught:

And their word will eat as gangrene, of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus, who swerve concerning the truth saying the resurrection has come into being now, and are overthrowing the faith of some. 2 Timothy 2:17-18

In other words, Hymenaeus taught that the resurrection was not something future, but a present reality. This is exactly what amillennialists teach; that the new birth is the first resurrection; that those who believe have already been resurrected. This concept forms the foundation of amillennialism which rejects that the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20 is a bodily resurrection.

How did Peter introduce the crowd to these concepts on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2)? He said: Repent, believe, be baptised, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. If you are not experiencing the kingdom of heaven already, what would give you the idea that you will experience it after you die? If you are not experiencing the kingdom of heaven, is that because you have not followed the teachings of the Messiah?

The one who is obedient to Christ's commandments, believe in Christ and love man, has the witness in himself that he is pleasing to GOD. Whether he sees or experiences extra-dimensional realities is really irrelevant.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

Both are able to be viewed and felt with the natural senses.

I don't believe the natural physical body - if that's what you mean - can perceive spirit objectively.

Yes, if the spirit(ual) invades the natural body, the natural body may detect and measure it correctly, or, may not correctly detect and measure it. The natural body may completely misinterpret what it is 'feeling' (to pick up on your choice of 'felt').

That is why we cannot depend on our natural bodies any more, just as Paul told the Corinthians (amongst many other gems). 2 Cor 5:16

Anyway, the writer to the Hebrews says 'But we see Jesus...' And indeed, some of us do see Jesus, but not with the eyes in our heads. Rather, we see Him with our inner eyes; according to Strong's, this is a legitimate interpretation of 'eye' in Revelation 1:7.

It is precisely because of these, and that if we are crucified with Christ not just sin, but the world - the things which distract us by catching our eye - are crucified to us. I would go so far as to say that the people who heard Peter preach on the day of Pentecost, fit the description of those in Revelation 1:7, precisely because they were pricked in their hearts.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

I don't believe the natural physical body - if that's what you mean - can perceive spirit objectively.
Yes, if the spirit(ual) invades the natural body, the natural body may detect and measure it correctly, or, may not correctly detect and measure it. The natural body may completely misinterpret what it is 'feeling' (to pick up on your choice of 'felt').
That is why we cannot depend on our natural bodies any more, just as Paul told the Corinthians (amongst many other gems). 2 Cor 5:16
Anyway, the writer to the Hebrews says 'But we see Jesus...' And indeed, some of us do see Jesus, but not with the eyes in our heads. Rather, we see Him with our inner eyes; according to Strong's, this is a legitimate interpretation of 'eye' in Revelation 1:7.
It is precisely because of these, and that if we are crucified with Christ not just sin, but the world - the things which distract us by catching our eye - are crucified to us. I would go so far as to say that the people who heard Peter preach on the day of Pentecost, fit the description of those in Revelation 1:7, precisely because they were pricked in their hearts.

I was referring to the spiritual body, not the spirit. The disciples were obviously able to feel, hear and see Jesus' spiritual body with their natural senses. The spirit itself, on the other hand, is invisible and can only be spiritually discerned. Jesus is not spirit; he is (has) a body.

 

[ajdiamond]

The holy spirit witnesses that we have a sinful nature. Walking with GOD requires an acknowledgment of that fact, for how can two walk together except they be in agreement?

Son of the Father,

Yes, this is what man is taught to believe. And LOOK, I sin, alot, therefore, yes, I must have a sinful nature!!

Are you not a son of God? Or is that just a nametag one wears?
Hello, I'm an accountant, a Republican, a Baptist and oh, btw, I'm a son of God too!

The good news that Jesus taught and exemplified is that within you is Something Far Greater than a "sinful nature".
(Not within your body. You are not your body). Within YOU. Within you is a realm far above human.

You believe you live and move as a human and that the ground of your being, your nature, your essence is sinful?
No, my friend. In HIM you Live and move and have your being.
Your true being is as a Child Of God.

You are in agreement when you walk with God, as Father and SON.
(And it takes more than a prayer, a doctrine and mental gymnastics to actualize this in you).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

[A] is based upon thinking. When one is not thinking, [A] is not there.

This is where you err. Thinking it's not there is pure delusion.

If we say that we do not have sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, so that he will forgive us our sins and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

This is the error behind sinless perfectionism. You stated it better than anyone I've heard: it's only there as long as we believe it is. That's what I call the idolatry of imagined obedience.

Update: Not fair. You removed what I quoted from.

 

[ajdiamond]

Sorry. I did an edit without realizing you had already replied.

 

[Pelaides]

Is sola scriptura what Jesus said would save people (from eternal death)?

John 10:35 "If he called them Gods,unto whom the word of God came,and the scripture cannot be broken;"


The Scripture comes first.

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,


I don't believe the natural physical body - if that's what you mean - can perceive spirit objectively.

Yes, if the spirit(ual) invades the natural body, the natural body may detect and measure it correctly, or, may not correctly detect and measure it. The natural body may completely misinterpret what it is 'feeling' (to pick up on your choice of 'felt').

That is why we cannot depend on our natural bodies any more, just as Paul told the Corinthians (amongst many other gems). 2 Cor 5:16

Anyway, the writer to the Hebrews says 'But we see Jesus...' And indeed, some of us do see Jesus, but not with the eyes in our heads. Rather, we see Him with our inner eyes; according to Strong's, this is a legitimate interpretation of 'eye' in Revelation 1:7.

It is precisely because of these, and that if we are crucified with Christ not just sin, but the world - the things which distract us by catching our eye - are crucified to us. I would go so far as to say that the people who heard Peter preach on the day of Pentecost, fit the description of those in Revelation 1:7, precisely because they were pricked in their hearts.

Are you preaching Hinduism?They believe in the third eye?

 

[Dodo_David]

Anyway, the writer to the Hebrews says 'But we see Jesus...'

Dragonfly, I find it odd that you would give such an alleged quote without citing its exact source.

How about citing the chapter and verse that the alleged quote comes from.