Lead a right life according to who? Certainly not themselves. The Scripture is not entirely clear on how God judges those who have died in ignorance. The Old Testament saints never heard about Jesus or the gospel, yet they still died in faith. There's no reason to believe they will go to the lake of fire because of it. So, there may be a measure of grace given. Still, I think it would be naive to believe everyone who has never heard the gospel is exempt from hell because of ignorance. They still had a conscience, so they are still accountable for their actions in this life. The one who gives grace can also withhold it.
Never heard the Gospel = burn/torment forever and ever ??
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Lead a right life according to who? Certainly not themselves. The Scripture is not entirely clear on how God judges those who have died in ignorance. The Old Testament saints never heard about Jesus or the gospel, yet they still died in faith. There's no reason to believe they will go to the lake of fire because of it. So, there may be a measure of grace given. Still, I think it would be naive to believe everyone who has never heard the gospel is exempt from hell because of ignorance. They still had a conscience, so they are still accountable for their actions in this life. The one who gives grace can also withhold it.
>>>>>>""They still had a conscience, so they are still accountable for their actions in this life.
and if they led a 'right decent' life according to their conscience yet died never knowing about GOD does the Bible teach they will go to the lake of fire ?
If so, then please list the verses.
The following, IMO, is undeniable proof that your infant son will never be thrown into the LOF.
Revelation 20:11 ¶And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Every single person at this judgment have the following in common, without exception.
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
As to your infant son, obviously, there would be zero works written in the books for him to be judged according to his works(deeds). Therefore, it is profoundly absurd that any infant that died as an infant is standing among these present at this judgment being judged according to their deeds. Because if any are, then John lied to us per these verses, since these verses only pertain to people that have deeds they did in life that were recorded in books, and are then being judged according to these deeds they did throughout their lives. No infant that has died as an infant could possibly have deeds recorded in these books.
IMO, Revelation14:11 pertains to the here and now during the last 7 vials of wrath and not Revelation 20:10-15 instead. That aside since that is obviously debatable.
For example, compare with.
Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Which can also be compared with the following.
Revelation 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
What many interpreters overlook, nowhere in Revelation 20:10 does it ever call that the 2nd death. And nowhere in Revelation 20:11:15 does it ever say that anyone cast into the LOF per that judgment, shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Obviously, Revelation 20:10 does not occur during Revelation 20:11:15. It is a different judgment. Even though all of these in verses 10-15 that are cast into the LOF end up in the same place, their fates are not the same. The ones pertaining to verse 10 shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The ones in verses 11-15 it is the 2nd death in their case, IOW, annihilation eventually. Since it is absurd that death equals the same thing as eternal life. After all, one can't be tormented for ever and ever unless they first live for ever and ever. Except death never equals life, it equals death.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
IMO, probably thereason both of these are cast into the LOF alive is because neither of them are able to die. That's why they are still seen there when satan joins them later on.
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If David is Eph 1:13 sealed & saved yet takes the Rev 14:9-11 MOTB, will David go to the Rev 14:9-11 LOF ?
In my view Revelation 14:9-1 is not pertaining to the LOF. But even so, David still gets cast into the LOF in the end because David fell away, and that NOSAS(not once saved always saved) in Biblical.
Did the Eph 1:13 sealed & saved David stop believing the 1 Cor 15:1-4 Gospel when David took the Rev 14:9-11 MOTB ?
I edited my last post since I do not agree the LOF is in view in Revelation 14. They are being tormented via the vials of wrath. That's what they have no rest day nor night from, the vials of wrath while they are in progress.
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If you are of the camp that only OSAS is Biblical, but NOSAS isn't, we are never going to be on the same page here. My view is that both OSAS and NOSAS are Biblical. Though, that might sound like a contradiction, it is actually not a contradiction. A contradiction is that only OSAS is Biblical, but NOSAS isn't. Or that only NOSAS is Biblical, OSAS isn't.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7:8-10 - New King James Version
But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.www.biblegateway.com
This idea is in accordance with sin in any ones life, and who is forgiven their sins, which often are many.
It only take one sin to separate you from God. Then it is God's choice to show mercy and compassion or not to show that towards a person.
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 24:46-48 - New King James Version
Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things.
Jesus Appears to His Disciples
36 Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” 37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. 38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
40 [j]When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?” 42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish [k]and some honeycomb. 43 And He took it and ate in their presence.
The Scriptures Opened
44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.
46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [a]and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things.
AND what did Christ say continually about eternal life versus eternal condemnation?
Only in Him can you have peace with God.
Bible Gateway passage: John 3 - New King James Version
The New Birth - There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Most...
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
Great scriptures! Is there a reason you posted them? Are you responding to someone?
I agree that Hell is real and awaits the un-saved.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
There are over 30,000 Protestant denominations and false beliefs abound. Choosing a denomination can take some thought. Some don't choose, they form their own beliefs.....don't go to church or be active in the Christian community. I call them the Church of One's. So there maybe 30,000 Protestant denominations, there are also millions and millions of Church of One's.....Free lance? Renegade? And what they piece together can be quite the bundle of false beliefs. And unraveling them can be like unraveling that giant ball of twine from Ripley's Believe it or not. Add to that a lot of Christians have a general negative view of education.....so it is not the blind leading the blind it some very imaginative people coming up with some wild ideas.
There are a lot of good denominations out there and a lot of good churches......but it is easy to point out the false beliefs and wolves in sheep clothing.....which is part of my ministry.
False beliefs that can lead to Hell......
Calvinism
Jehovah's Witnesses
OSAS
Universalism
New Age Christian mysticism
Hi, those scriptures answer the OP. Jesus is the only way to the Father God. The Old Covenant still required justification by faith, by believing what God the Father said and no justification was achieved by doing the deeds of the LAW of God, because well, when people failed in part they failed the whole LAW. Of all the ancient religions, none of them worshipped the Lord except for those who were of Israel.
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3 - 21st Century King James Version
What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there in circumcision? Much in every way; chiefly because unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Shall their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? God forbid! Yea, let God be true, but...
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law, no flesh shall be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
25 Him God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 to declare, I say, at this time, His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him that believeth in Jesus.
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Jesus in John 5 explains much about theses things.
20 For the Father loveth the Son and showeth Him all things that He Himself doeth; and He will show Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son,
23 that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent Him.
24 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.
Jesus warns the unbelieving Jews they will not be saved, as they do not believe what God says.
And interestingly Jesus says they do not even believe Moses upon whom they claimed to put their trust, as they did not believe what Moses wrote.
Bible Gateway passage: John 5 - 21st Century King James Version
After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. In these lay a great multitude of invalid folk -- blind, halt, withered -- waiting for the moving of...
2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
3 In these lay a great multitude of invalid folk — blind, halt, withered — waiting for the moving of the water.
4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool and troubled the water. Whosoever then first stepped in, after the troubling of the water, was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
5 And a certain man was there who had an infirmity for thirty and eight years.
6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had been in that state a long time, He said unto him, “Wilt thou be made whole?”
7 The infirm man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool; but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.”
8 Jesus said unto him, “Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.”
9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed and walked. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.
10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, “It is the Sabbath day; it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.”
11 He answered them, “He that made me whole said unto me, ‘Take up thy bed and walk.’”
12 Then they asked him, “What man is that who said unto thee, ‘Take up thy bed and walk’?”
13 And he that was healed knew not who it was, for Jesus had removed Himself away, a multitude being in that place.
14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said unto him, “Behold, thou art made whole. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.”
15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him whole.
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath day.
17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, “Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do; for what things soever He doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son and showeth Him all things that He Himself doeth; and He will show Him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son,
23 that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who hath sent Him.
24 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.
25 “Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself,
27 and hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice
29 and shall come forth — they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 “I can of Mine own self do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I seek not Mine own will, but the will of the Father who hath sent Me.
31 If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true.
32 There is Another that beareth witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesseth of Me is true.
33 “Ye sent unto John, and he bore witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man, but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light, and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John; for the works which the Father hath given Me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of Me that the Father hath sent Me.
37 And the Father Himself, who hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.
38 And ye have not His Word abiding in you; for Whom He hath sent, Him ye believe not.
39 “Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and it is they which testify of Me.
40 And ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life!
41 I receive not honor from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I have come in My Father’s name, and ye receive Me not; if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, who receive honor one from another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed Me, for he wrote of Me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe My words?”
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The Holy Spirit filled Peter and then he spoke the word of God to the unbelieving Jews what had them arrested for speaking to the people about how to be saved.
11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
If people are not saved, they have no eternal life and will be judged by their deeds at the end of the world.
If no one will be justified in God's sight except for those who believed what God said, that explains to you what happens to anyone who does not believe in His Son, as God has committed all judgment to the Son. The Father judges no one. If you don't Honor the Son, you don't Honor the Father God who sent the Son to save you from your sins.
www.biblegateway.com
Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
If people are not saved, they have no eternal life and will be judged by their deeds at the end of the world.
If no one will be justified in God's sight except for those who believed what God said, that explains to you what happens to anyone who does not believe in His Son, as God has committed all judgment to the Son. The Father judges no one. If you don't Honor the Son, you don't Honor the Father God who sent the Son to save you from your sins.
Bible Gateway passage: Acts 4 - New King James Version
Peter and John Arrested - Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them, being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody...
Addressing the Sanhedrin
5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, 6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Paul writes to the believing Ephesian church these words.
Pauls says at one time before faith in Christ came, they were strangers from the covenant of God, (Christ would tell them I do not know you), having no hope, without God in the world.
Today, are you an unbelieving Gentile or a believing Gentile?
What does that speak to you about people's destiny at the end of the world?
www.biblegateway.com
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Pauls says at one time before faith in Christ came, they were strangers from the covenant of God, (Christ would tell them I do not know you), having no hope, without God in the world.
Today, are you an unbelieving Gentile or a believing Gentile?
What does that speak to you about people's destiny at the end of the world?
Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2 - New King James Version
By Grace Through Faith - And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted...
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Paul writes to the believing Ephesian church these words.
Pauls says at one time before faith in Christ came, they were strangers from the covenant of God, (Christ would tell them I do not know you), having no hope, without God in the world.
Today, are you an unbelieving Gentile or a believing Gentile?
What does that speak to you about people's destiny at the end of the world?
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2 - New King James Version
By Grace Through Faith - And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted...
Great scriptures and a lot of them. Kudos.
Write a summary about how they are related to.......never heard of the gospel burn and forever and ever.
