New Light on the Birth of Christ

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Peterlag

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2022
2,734
822
113
68
New York
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There are some important customs pertaining to Middle Eastern life in the first century that we must know to understand the birth of Jesus. For example, if a family owned one or two farm animals, it was common to bring them into the house at night. Farm animals were very expensive, and most families owned only a few, if any, so they were brought into the home at night to keep them from being stolen and to protect them from harm. Also, the animals added heat to the house, which would be very welcome on chilly nights. The woman in Endor who King Saul visited at night had her calf in the house with her: “And the woman had a fat calf in the house” (1 Samuel 28:24, KJV). Of course, if the family were shepherds or herdsmen, they would not bring the whole flock or herd into the house, but would have a family member or a hired guard watch them in the field—which was why the shepherds were in the field watching their flocks on the night Jesus was born. It was a common practice to raise the floor of the part of the house where the family lived and to keep the animals in an area that was a little lower, even if only a few inches lower.

This would keep waste from coming into where the family lived and slept. Also, Jesus was laid in a manger, which is an open trough, box, or bin where the animal food was placed so the animals could feed easily. In Western society, animals and mangers are in barns or stables, and since Jesus was laid in a manger, it made sense to Europeans that Jesus was born in a stable and so that became a
fixed part of the traditional Christmas Story. However, in biblical society in the Middle East, where the animals grazed outside during the day and were brought into the house at night, if a family owned a manger, it would almost always be in the house. The manger would keep the animals calm and content in the tighter quarters of the house, just as many modern farm animals have a feeding trough in their stall. The manger would be in the main part of the house, never in the guest room, which is why the text says that Jesus was placed in the manger “because there was no place for them in the guest room” (Luke. 2:7 Common English Bible, 2011).

People in the ancient Near East around the time of Christ knew that a manger would be in the house. Given that, when Jesus was laid in a manger, people would have understood that the guest room was full, so Jesus was born and kept in the main part of the house where the family and animals stayed. Nevertheless, it seems that putting Jesus in the animal manger would have been unusual, and the reason that the family placed him there is not stated. It certainly was not to demean him, so it was likely to protect him from busy feet and drafts in the house. The translation “in the house” is correct, and is used in the more literal translations such as the KJV, ESV, NASB, etc. Fred Wight, Manners and Customs of Bible Lands (Moody Press, Chicago, 1953), p. 34; Bailey, Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes, pp. 28-33. The New Testament scholar John Nolland also mentions the area for animals being somewhat lower than where the people ate and slept: “...it is best to think of an overcrowded Palestinian peasant home: a single-roomed home with an animal stall under the same roof (frequently to be distinguished from the family living quarters by the raised platform floor of the latter). John Nolland, Word Biblical Commentary (Nelson Reference and Electronic, Colombia, 1989), p. 105. The modern city of Taybeh in Israel (in the West Bank) has a very old house in typical eastern fashion that has been stocked and decorated with ancient things and thus gives a very good idea of what ancient village life would be like.

As we previously covered in the summary of the biblical Christmas Story, Mary would not have been alone when Jesus was born. Mary would have been attended by the women of the household, any women staying in the guest room, almost certainly the village midwife, and perhaps even some wise and experienced women from the neighborhood. This was Mary’s first child and the baby being born was a descendant of David, so many women would have wanted to be a part of that birth and give any help and support that they could. Also, Joseph and the men of the household would not have been there, but would have graciously left the house sometime during Mary’s labor, which was the ancient custom and standard procedure in that culture. Someone with a modern Western mindset may say, “Well, the Bible does not say those other women were there when Mary gave birth.” Of course not. May we remind the reader that if something was normal for the culture, it was written about only rarely if ever. The details of a woman giving birth are never given in the Bible. The Bible just says, “and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son” (Luke 2:7 NIV).

No details of births are necessary because they were a “normal” part of life, and no first-century reader in Israel would have expected anything different than what usually happens in a village birth. In fact, if women of the household and the village midwife had not been there to help Mary, that would have been so unusual that it would probably have been part of the birth record of Jesus Christ and written about in Matthew or Luke. Craig Keener writes: “Midwives normally assisted at birth; especially because this was Mary’s first child, it's likely (though not explicit in the text) that a midwife would assist her. Jewish law permitted midwives to travel a long distance even on the Sabbath to assist in delivery” (Craig Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament, IVP Academic, Downers Grove, IL, 2014, Second Edition, p. 185).

While Mary was in labor and giving birth in the house, the man who owned the house, along with his sons and Joseph, would have been outside or perhaps in the home of a neighbor, giving Mary the privacy she needed during the birth of Jesus. Once Jesus was born, a woman would announce that a baby boy had been born, and there would have been the standard shouting, music, and joyful celebrations that were part of the birth celebration of a baby boy. After Mary gave birth, the women around her would have taken the necessary time to get the house back in proper order and make sure Mary and baby Jesus were comfortable, and then the men would have been allowed back in the house. Therefore, baby Jesus would have been born in normal circumstances, with Mary being helped and cared for by the women around her while the men waited outside to hear the news of the birth. And this was not just any baby boy; this baby boy was a firstborn baby boy in the line of David, whose mother and father were both descendants of David, and he was born in the city of David. There would have been a big celebration, with shouting, singing, music, and dancing—all very customary and easy to locate in the small village of Bethlehem.



 

Peterlag

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2022
2,734
822
113
68
New York
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The real story of the birth of Christ shows what we today consider to be the true spirit of Christmas. Joseph, who loved Mary, did not wait until she was uncomfortable in her pregnancy to take her on the four-to-six-day journey to Bethlehem but took her when she could still travel comfortably. Then, a loving family in Bethlehem opened their home to Joseph and Mary, bringing them into the family living quarters and treating them like immediate family. Mary gave birth in the same way village births had occurred for millennia, surrounded by knowledgeable and caring women who helped her while the men waited outside the house. After the birth of Mary’s firstborn son was announced, the men would have begun a noisy celebration in the street with music and shouting—all completely standard in a village when a baby boy was born. Very soon after, shepherds showed up and said they had seen a great light, an army of angels, and that this baby was the promised Savior.

Forty days later, when Mary and Joseph made the seven-mile trip to the Temple in Jerusalem to offer the sacrifice that accompanied the birth of a boy, Simeon and Anna confirmed what the shepherds had said about Jesus being the Savior. Then, more than a year after Jesus was born, Magi, who had traveled for many months from the country of Parthia, showed up at the house where Joseph, Mary, and Jesus were staying and paid homage to the child and gave expensive gifts to Joseph and Mary, and then left to return to Parthia. The very same night that the Magi left, an angel told Joseph to take his family and go to Egypt, which he did, leaving during the night. They stayed in Egypt until King Herod was dead. Then Joseph took Mary and Jesus back to Nazareth and he and Mary raised their children there.

The true Christmas Story is one of love and giving and true humility. Jesus was not born in a palace or around the rich and powerful people in Israel. He was born in customary village circumstances in the midst of the people he loved and ministered to later in his life. It's wonderful that our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave so much to so many—including making available the gift of everlasting life—was born in circumstances in which people were so loving and giving to him.

The record of the Birth of Christ is given in the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke. However, one does not follow the other, they are intertwined. Also, they do not contradict each other; they give differing details about the birth of Christ. The chronological order of the record of Jesus’ birth is:

• Luke 1:5-80
• Matthew 1:18-25
• Luke 2:1-38
• Matthew 2:1-22
• Matthew 2:23 & Luke 2:39
 

Mr E

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2022
3,607
2,589
113
San Diego
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The story of the night of Christ’s birth needs to be relearned, not only because truth matters and what actually happened is important, but because the true Christmas Story shows the love and sacrifice that people make to help each other and the true joy of giving so that others can be blessed. What actually happened is a much more redemptive rendition of the Christmas Story than the townspeople of Bethlehem closing their hearts and shutting their doors to a young pregnant woman in need.

When you find yourself in a hole and hope to get out-- stop digging.

Yes truth matters. You just told several renditions of the Christmas story that are NOT presented in scripture the way you present them. Sure, some of them are re-tellings that have inserted ideas into the story that have given the wrong impression-- such as your example of the idea that the three wise-men arrived that same night as the shepherds. It's just not in the scriptures, but there they are.... in almost every nativity scene, bringing their gifts to him at the manger. Not in the text--- not even that there were three of them-- that's only supposition.

And what you bring from Bailey has no historical fact attached either. I know you aren't stupid. Can't you see Bailey is speculating, based almost entirely on his experiences with the nice people he met while living in the Middle East. He just cannot imagine them treating Mary and Joseph badly. So instead he imagines that their kind relatives took them in, and Jesus was born in a living room feeding trough instead of a barn feeding trough. Who cares? Who cares what Mr Bailey imagines?

It doesn't illuminate the story. It doesn't make something that doesn't make sense, make sense. It doesn't reconcile some difficult to understand passage-- it diminishes the story we have.

If you want to imagine something-- Imagine the son of the great King, taking off his royal robes and descending from heaven to earth, leaving his realm of power, comfort, richness and royalty to be born a helpless baby and laid in a feeding trough. Imagine that.
 

Rockerduck

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2022
976
870
93
69
Marietta, Georgia.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Luke was a doctor and researcher. Where did he get the story of Jesus's birth? From Mary herself. He was with her in Ephesus.
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you the unnamed "friend' that @Peterlag mentions? He's the one who put the 'pamphlet' forward, I was merely responding to his mention of it. Did you read and understand that?

What impact does it make on the story, to think that there was NO ROOM at an Air BnB (room for rent) and the newborn babe was placed in a manger (feeding trough) rather than NO ROOM at an actual Inn? Or stretch it farther-- The baby was wrapped in swaddling cloths and placed in a manger (feeding trough) because there was NO ROOM at their relatives' guest room?

It makes no difference.

Bailey's thesis relies on his "feeling" that the young couple would have had relatives in town. Okay. I can go along with that. And he surmises that most folks had a one or two room house AND a guest house. Really?

They all had guest houses--? κατάλυμα --everyone had one, according to Bailey. They all had extra rooms, but they kept their animals in the one or two room quarters where they themselves lived. Was it Barnum, or Bailey who said- "There's a sucker born every minute" --I don't think that's a reference to Jesus, but it might include you.

But let's play along with Bailey's imaginings..... There were relatives of Mary and Joseph, these 'royal blood' kinfolk AND these relatives had an extra room..... BUT WAIT. There was no room in that room for them. That's what the scriptures make clear. So to follow Bailey's logic, these relatives did NOT make room in their spare room for the VERY pregnant Mary.

And that's not even the worst of his error.
Your reply is worthless. I am not a "sucker". I have reported your post. I am putting you on "ignore"
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mr E

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does it bother you that the scriptures do not agree with this man's theory? I cannot even begin to understand why the Bible's narrative is even in question, since scripture is inspired by God...it is not the work of men....

At the outset it helps to remember the purpose of these Biblical accounts in Matthew and Luke. They are not biographies; they are Gospels. The distinction is important. In a biography, the author may fill hundreds of pages, endeavoring to show how his subject developed into the figure that is so well-known. So their accounts are not rambling biographies filled with unnecessary details. Of the four Gospel records, Matthew’s and Luke’s are the only two that tell of Jesus’ birth and childhood. Their aim, however, is not to show how Jesus developed into the man he became. Jesus’ followers recognized that he had existed in heaven before he ever came to the earth. (John 8:23) So Matthew and Luke did not draw on Jesus’ childhood, but they related incidents that suited the purpose of their Gospels.

So, what was their purpose in writing them? The word “gospel” means “good news.” Both men had the same message—that Jesus was the promised Messiah, or Christ; that he died for mankind’s sins; and that he was resurrected to heaven. But the two writers had markedly different backgrounds and wrote for different audiences. Matthew, a former tax collector, shaped his account for a largely Jewish audience. Luke, was a physician, who wrote to the “most excellent Theophilus”—who possibly had some high position—and, by extension, to a broader audience of Jews and Gentiles. (Luke 1:1-3) Each writer selected incidents that were most relevant to and most likely to convince his particular audience. Thus, Matthew’s record stresses the Hebrew Scripture prophecies that were fulfilled in connection with Jesus. Whereas Luke, on the other hand, follows the more classic historical approach that his non-Jewish audience might have recognized.

Not surprisingly, their accounts differ. But the two do not, as some critics claim, contradict each other. They complement each other, dovetailing nicely to form a more complete picture.

The scripture that undoes this man's theory is Luke 2:1-7...
"Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Au·gusʹtus for all the inhabited earth to be registered. 2 (This first registration took place when Qui·rinʹi·us was governor of Syria.) 3 And all the people went to be registered, each one to his own city. 4 Of course, Joseph also went up from Galʹi·lee, from the city of Nazʹa·reth, into Ju·deʹa, to David’s city, which is called Bethʹle·hem, because of his being a member of the house and family of David. 5 He went to get registered with Mary, who had been given him in marriage as promised and who was soon to give birth. 6 While they were there, the time came for her to give birth. 7 And she gave birth to her son, the firstborn, and she wrapped him in strips of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the lodging place."

Just this scripture alone rules out anyone giving them private lodging because of their "royal" connections (as has been mentioned by @Mr E) .....everyone who came to be registered was of the same family line of King David. There was no room at the Inn, because so many had come to Bethlehem, "David's city" to be registered......so the Inn Keeper, seeing that Mary was very close to giving birth, allowed them to occupy the stable where Jesus was born, and "laid in a manger".

Shepherds were privileged to hear and see the angelic announcement of Jesus' birth.....they told the shepherds....
"Do not be afraid, for look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have. 11 For today there was born to you in David’s city a savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this is a sign for you: You will find an infant wrapped in strips of cloth and lying in a manger.(V 10-12)

There is no connection whatsoever to the man's theory.....from the scriptural viewpoint....so how can he promote it as truth?
One of the biggest mistakes that people make is thinking that the gospels are equivalent to Western journalism. As you post clearly shows, they are mistakem.
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
23,393
39,983
113
52
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
More EGREGIOUS NONSENSE from Peterlag. That is a good handle since Peter has been lagging behind in Bible truth for a long time.
Spot on right enoch . The leaders who teach such dung are only trying to get us to doubt in the bible .
Lambs wont fall for it . SPOT ON RIGHT ENOCH . SPOT ON RIGHT . IF the BIBLE says it , WE SIMPLY BELIEVE IT . PEROID .
 

Adam

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2022
690
379
63
43
X
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Does the Bible say that they stayed in the manger for the next week? I'll have to do some reading, but I had always been under the impression that the manger was just the site of the delivery, not a dedicated lodging.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aunty Jane

Peterlag

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2022
2,734
822
113
68
New York
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Luke was a doctor and researcher. Where did he get the story of Jesus's birth? From Mary herself. He was with her in Ephesus.

We do not have that document. We have copies of copies and also the Bible is an eastern book written in the eastern culture. I'm simply helping you to understand that. I'm not changing the Word of God.
 

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
23,393
39,983
113
52
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does the Bible say that they stayed in the manger for the next week? I'll have to do some reading, but I had always been under the impression that the manger was just the site of the delivery, not a dedicated lodging.
I have no idea how long they stayed there . But i do know they did cause the BIBLE says so .
 

Jim B

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2020
5,793
1,797
113
Santa Fe NM
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Does the Bible say that they stayed in the manger for the next week? I'll have to do some reading, but I had always been under the impression that the manger was just the site of the delivery, not a dedicated lodging.

A manger is a feed trough. Nobody "stayed there" and Jesus wasn't delivered there either. That's where Jesus was laid after He was born.

Luke 2:6-7 NRSVue, "While they were there, the time came for her to deliver her child. And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in bands of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no place in the guest room."

Luke 2:6-7 MLT, "And while they were there, the time came for her baby to be born. She gave birth to her firstborn son. She wrapped him snugly in strips of cloth and laid him in a manger, because there was no lodging available for them.

These should clarify what was written.
 
Last edited:

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,565
12,984
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Interesting view sharing @Peterlag

I would suspect in ancient days, homes were very small simple structures, likely a single makeshift curtain hanging for a “sleeping space” and a “stable” (with a very few animals, perhaps for slaughter or milking or corn crib) were small and attached to the homes.

I think it would be rather usual a guest (stranger, friend or family) to sleep on a blanket on a bed of hay in the “stable”.

I would suspect Bethlehem was a small town, and likely had a single small inn with a few rooms, and the majority making the trip carried blankets, perhaps cloth for a make-shift small tent and that Joseph and Mary were fortunate to bed down in a “stable”, while the majority were bedding down out in the open.

Not much different than seeing people flocking to “get tickets” to an event, camping out or “Woodstock”, hundreds of people gathering and sleeping in an open field.

Everyone traveling to Bethlehem, were of the House of David, as required by Roman degree to be registered in a census of their forefathers origin.

I do agree, what what was common knowledge, was unnecessary to elaborate detail. And jumping the rail for a moment, on that specific, to a political stance, of natural born citizen meaning was expressing known, yet most Americans have not a clue what it means, and have been hoodwinked into electing persons to high offices that ARE NOT constitutionally qualified, currently included.

Thanks for sharing,
Taken

 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,565
12,984
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
From what I have read I would have to say not long. But long enough for the Shepherds to find him there.

There is time LAPSE and consideration of DISTANCE and rugged terrain.

Nazareth to Bethlehem .... about 80 miles.
Bethlehem to Jerusalem... about 6 miles.
Nazareth to Jerusalem...... about 75 miles.

Birth of Jesus... Bethlehem, circumcision at 8 days old.
Presentation of Jesus in Temple, in Jerusalem 40 days old, parent(S) present.

Consideration of long distances, Travel time of pregnant Mary....of Newly having given birth...
Very rough terrain. Donkey “riding”? highly awkward, and unsuitable for long distances.

Seems likely:
They stayed in Bethlehem, (there visited by Shepherds) until circumcision was performed, then traveled the shorter distance to Jerusalem and stayed in a House, (was visited by wise men,) until Jesus was presented in the Temple, and thereafter, went to EGYPT to seek save harbor of Jesus’ life.
After the death of Herod, returned to Galilee.
 

Peterlag

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2022
2,734
822
113
68
New York
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is time LAPSE and consideration of DISTANCE and rugged terrain.

Nazareth to Bethlehem .... about 80 miles.
Bethlehem to Jerusalem... about 6 miles.
Nazareth to Jerusalem...... about 75 miles.

Birth of Jesus... Bethlehem, circumcision at 8 days old.
Presentation of Jesus in Temple, in Jerusalem 40 days old, parent(S) present.

Consideration of long distances, Travel time of pregnant Mary....of Newly having given birth...
Very rough terrain. Donkey “riding”? highly awkward, and unsuitable for long distances.

Seems likely:
They stayed in Bethlehem, (there visited by Shepherds) until circumcision was performed, then traveled the shorter distance to Jerusalem and stayed in a House, (was visited by wise men,) until Jesus was presented in the Temple, and thereafter, went to EGYPT to seek save harbor of Jesus’ life.
After the death of Herod, returned to Galilee.
I'm not an expert in this field, but have basic knoweldge above most even in this area. It seems to me that you're pretty right on.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,565
12,984
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm not an expert in this field, but have basic knoweldge above most even in this area. It seems to me that you're pretty right on.

Luke 2:
[21] And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
[22] And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

This would require deeper study...days of her purification...from delivery? from the full 40 days accomplished? THEN went to Jerusalem?
(Seems purification has temporary Blood issue separation AND more specific no intimate sexual relations between husband and wife.)

May simply be giving us knowledge, they did not return to Their city, Nazarth.
And considering the Shepards, were spreading the news, so the buzz was filtering about the people...
And the timing of When Herod heard, and sent forces into Bethlehem to kill babes.
Giving precise days timeframes, seems dependent upon two things...
Maintaining Law of Moses Jewish religious rituals AND how hot on the trail was Herod’s Gentile military forces with intent to kill Jewish baby’s.
(Simply NEWS of that would be horrifying to everyone with baby’s. Can you even imagine a whole city in whaling distress...horrible.)

Kind of hard to put in perspective when most Americans have routinely traveled paved highways in vehicles, 80 miles distance, in less than two hours in air conditioning, munching on a fast-food burger, drinking a coke, listening to rock n roll music, handy baby bottled milk, disposable diapers and a pacifier. Stark difference.

The ONLY Temple was in Jerusalem, and routinely yearly travel to Jerusalem for religious rituals, would indicate rooms, lodging, was much more accommodating in Jerusalem.
 

Jay Ross

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2011
6,902
2,568
113
QLD
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
To see what really happened around the season of the birth of Christ, we need to glean facts from both the Greek text . . .

I would recommend that you put all of the recorded biblical events into chronological order so that you gain a better understanding of the "Christmas story" and how it unfolded.

I have previously posted this information in an attached PDF file for people to read at their leisure, a few years back now.

I began to read your efforts described in your above posts but gave up because of how far from the truth your efforts were.

PM me with your email address if you would like to read what i had cobbled together.
 

Peterlag

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2022
2,734
822
113
68
New York
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I would recommend that you put all of the recorded biblical events into chronological order so that you gain a better understanding of the "Christmas story" and how it unfolded.

I have previously posted this information in an attached PDF file for people to read at their leisure, a few years back now.

I began to read your efforts described in your above posts but gave up because of how far from the truth your efforts were.

PM me with your email address if you would like to read what i had cobbled together.

What I posted makes a lot of sense to me and that's why I posted it. It's written by a friend and I only posted bits and pieces here because data here is limited. So I can't post in chronological order. But again, it's someone else's work and I don't care about it that much. My field is how to walk by the spirit and that you can look at here that's about one page long... www.carb-fat.com/spirit.html