No future hope for Israel in the Bible

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HealthyShape

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The argument that modern Israel isn't biblical Israel, etc., is a ploy of worldly Jew-haters to persecute Israel and its Jewish people. People pushing this Satanic ideology are not Christians and shouldn't be welcome here.
This is absurd. No Christian creed contains "we believe that modern Israel is the biblical Israel".

Such statement would be even illogical per se. The modern Israel is obviously the modern Israel, it can not be the biblical Israel. Just logically. Bible was finished 2,000 years ago.
 

NotTheRock

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This is absurd. No Christian creed contains "we believe that modern Israel is the biblical Israel".

Such statement would be even illogical per se. The modern Israel is obviously the modern Israel, it can not be the biblical Israel. Just logically. Bible was finished 2,000 years ago.

The Nazi propaganda is that the Christian movement is the new "Israel" and that the modern version has no relevance nor do its Jews. This sentiment was popular with some 1930's Germans that considered Jews to be vermin.

Do you share these views?
 

HealthyShape

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The Nazi propaganda is that the Christian movement is the new "Israel" and that the modern version has no relevance nor do its Jews. This sentiment was popular with some 1930's Germans that considered Jews to be vermin.

Do you share these views?
I am not familiar with this Nazi propaganda, so I can not tell. It is best to avoid all propaganda.

However, I will restate, Christianity is not a belief in the modern Israel. You can not judge others to not be Christians based on that.
 

kdx

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The Nazi propaganda is that the Christian movement is the new "Israel" and that the modern version has no relevance nor do its Jews. This sentiment was popular with some 1930's Germans that considered Jews to be vermin.

Do you share these views?

The modern version (if you mean by it 1948 Israel) has relevance, just no biblical relevance. It has nothing at all to do with anything that is written in the Bible.
 
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Chrysostomos

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Well since you're one of the many people who conflate the country which named itself Israel with the elect nation God named Israel there may be no point in talking to you about the fact that Israel - the real Israel - is in Christ - and God still regards the elect nation with whom He made the New Covenant, as the seed of Abraham - including Gentiles in Christ.

Jesus is the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus is Israel.

The fact that those who are broken off from Israel are ruling a country which the United Nations (man's law) allowed them to have (because their post- Exodus ancestors all originate from there), is one of those paradoxes that confuse many Christians - because from a human point of view - what else were they supposed to have called their newly (re)established kingdom? The majority do not realize they have been broken off from God's elect, do they? Yet their ancestor was Jacob (Israel).

The nation that is God's elect is in the seed of Abraham, who is Christ - and we are ALL called Israel, and the New Covenant was made with those (of the) natural descendants who are in Christ, and us too - because Gentiles in Christ have been grafted into it - the true house of Israel and house of Judah.

You are throwing away our identity in Christ by saying "Israel does not exist" - and you're doing so just because they who are not in Christ claim the identity for themselves.

Live with the paradox. In scripture we are called "the Israel of God". Love those who are broken off as much as Joseph loved his estranged brethren while he was in Egypt, and as much as Paul who was in continual sorrow in his heart because they were broken off - who also taught that if any of them repent of their unbelief, they will be grafted back in again.

Just live with the paradox and stop allowing the devil to use it to create in you a resentment for those whose hears and minds have been blinded by Satan's lies worked through their Rabbinical Judaism. Love them the way Christ loves you - and still loves them and desires their salvation.

I'm not saying you should love them more than any other unsaved people or nation bound up by a false religion - God is not a respecter of persons or a racist. Neither should you go to the opposite extreme and turn that country calling itself "Israel" or those people who carry a lot of of the same ancestral DNA as the apostles whose word you believe, into your (unsaved) golden calf that you worship, as way too many Christians do.

Balance this out - because clearly you are supporting someone who has twisted scripture in order to attack the Jews.
You’ve pulled a classic bait-and-switch, and it’s as dishonest as it gets. You threw around accusations of antisemitism in this thread, to which I responded: “Accusations of antisemitism are a compliment, not an argument.”

You weren’t talking about antisemitism as an attack on the spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ. You obviously meant it as criticism of the modern state of Israel and its citizens. You assumed that those calling themselves Jews in Israel are actual Semites, and that’s why you thought this thread’s arguments were antisemitic.

I already answered you:
“In short, in the thread ‘No future hope for Israel in the Bible,’ I’d respond briefly: Israel doesn’t exist.

The modern state called Israel has as much connection to the biblical Old Testament northern kingdom of Israel as today’s Egypt has to the Egypt of Moses’ time.
And modern Israelis are about as ‘Jewish’ as Arabs in Egypt are ‘Egyptian’ from the days of the Pharaohs.

No future hope for Israel in the Bible—and the real Israel itself is gone too.

You still haven’t proven that the group you’re talking about are Semites at all.
How can someone be an anti-Semite when the group you’re referring to aren’t even Semites?”

Now you’re flipping the script, claiming “Israel” is all Christians, including non-Semites, as if that’s what you meant all along.

So why did you start slinging antisemitism accusations in the first place? Your sleight-of-hand is as cunning and deceitful as Satan himself.
Your father, the devil, must have taught you to weave such sly, lying sophistry.


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NotTheRock

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I am not familiar with this Nazi propaganda, so I can not tell. It is best to avoid all propaganda.

However, I will restate, Christianity is not a belief in the modern Israel. You can not judge others to not be Christians based on that.

Another "Christian" that despises Israel and Jews. I need a shower.
 

NotTheRock

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The modern version (if you mean by it 1948 Israel) has relevance, just no biblical relevance. It has nothing at all to do with anything that is written in the Bible.

Why do you hate Jews?
 

kdx

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@NotTheRock

So basically, you believe Jew and Gentiles are not equal, right? You think there is at least something in the Jew that makes him more special in the eyes of God than any Gentile, just because of the fact that he is a Jew, a blood-relative of Abraham.

We are not anti semite, you my friend are anti gentile. We hold the equality of all before God.
 
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HealthyShape

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Another "Christian" that despises Israel and Jews. I need a shower.
Do you realize that it is you who seems hateful and a bigot, here? And if you call me "Christian" in quotes again, I will report you and all your hateful posts you made here.
 

kdx

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By the way, don't you think it's funny how a lot of Dispensationalists accuse any non-friendly-to-present-day-Israel-adherents-with-regard-to-Gods-promises with anti-semitic tendencies (or at least their theology, according to these Dispensationalists, supposedly give way for anti-semitism, which is a form of racism), while at the same time upholding Israel as special because of their blood? Isn't this racism per se? I mean, you cannot get any clearer than that. It's insane, and disgusting, in my opinion.

Just to remind people of what I wrote previously. We have another demonstration right before our eyes.
 

HealthyShape

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If we call others "satanic", "devil's children", "Nazi" and similar, it leads to prejudice, injustice, fanaticism, hatred and even violence.

A proper dialog must stay away from such attacks.
 
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kdx

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And by the way, suppose for a moment „all Israel will be saved“ means a national salvation of ethnic Israel at some point in the future, as is being argued. Let’s say that takes place today, or in 50, 100, maybe 500 years. Every Jew is saved. Wow, so now „all Israel“ is saved, praise the Lord. But then, put that saved number into perspective and contrast it with all those Jews who died beforehand in unbelief and went to hell, from the time of Abraham or the first century unto the time of the national salvation. Now all of the sudden, what does „all Israel“ even mean? To call such a small percentage with regards to the mere numbers „all“ doesn’t make any sense.

„All Israel“ does indeed mean all, if you remind yourself of what Paul wrote previously, that not all who come from Israel are Israel. And so, in this way, by hardening a part of Israel unto jealousy, so that salvation comes to the Gentiles, again, in this way (not then), all Israel will indeed be saved, which consist of both Jew and Gentile. Paul talked about a reality already present and unfolding within his own time, not some isolated far distant event in the future.
 
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Chrysostomos

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If we call others "satanic", "devil's children", "Nazi" and similar, it leads to prejudice, injustice, fanaticism, hatred and even violence.

A proper dialog must stay away from such attacks.
What, are you trying to be holier than Jesus Himself?

I’m using His words—straight from John 8:44, where He told the hypocritical Pharisees, “Your father is the devil.”

Notice my restraint: I could’ve gone harder with Matthew 23:33, calling you “snakes, brood of vipers,” or even referenced Matthew 7:6 about not casting pearls before swine. But you don’t appreciate my generosity, do you?

You play the saintly pacifist, whining about “proper dialogue” while ignoring the lies and hypocrisy I’m exposing.
Jesus didn’t come to coddle deceivers—He said,
“I came not to bring peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34)
to divide truth from falsehood.
 

HealthyShape

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What, are you trying to be holier than Jesus Himself?
God is the highest standard. If we can go "holier" than Jesus, then your view of Jesus is not sufficient.

I’m using His words—straight from John 8:44, where He told the hypocritical Pharisees, “Your father is the devil.”
But we do not have any Pharisees here. We are not called to emulate these unique situations Jesus was in in Christian forums. We are called to love each other. If even unbelievers are able to have more civilized discussions and higher standards, what does it say about us?
 

Scott Downey

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I know some people will like this, there is only one people of God, just as Ephesians 2 clearly says!

Brought Near by His Blood​

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Christ Our Peace​

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Christ Our Cornerstone​

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.


So I ask Copilot....
How then does Romans 11 fit into a non dispensational POV

Romans 11 is a cornerstone chapter for understanding the relationship between ethnic Israel and the Church, and it’s often misread through a dispensational lens. But from a non-dispensational perspective, especially one rooted in covenant theology or progressive covenantalism, Romans 11 reveals a unified redemptive plan centered in Christ—not two separate peoples or destinies.
Let’s walk through the key themes:

1. God Has Not Rejected His People (Romans 11:1–6)

“Has God rejected His people? By no means!”
  • Paul affirms that God’s promises to Israel remain intact, but he redefines “Israel” as those who respond in faith.
  • The remnant—those chosen by grace—are the true Israel. This remnant includes believing Jews, like Paul himself.
Non-dispensational view: God’s faithfulness is upheld, but the remnant principle shows that not all ethnic Israel is automatically part of God’s covenant people.

2. Gentile Inclusion and Jewish Jealousy (Romans 11:11–15)

“Salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.”
  • Gentiles are grafted in, not as a replacement, but as part of the same olive tree.
  • This inclusion is meant to provoke ethnic Israel to return to faith, not to establish a separate dispensation.
Non-dispensational view: The olive tree is one people of God, not two. Gentiles are included by faith, and Jews can be re-included by the same faith.

3. The Olive Tree Analogy (Romans 11:16–24)

“You were grafted in among them and now share in the nourishing root…”
  • The olive tree represents the covenant people of God.
  • Some natural branches (unbelieving Jews) were broken off, and wild branches (believing Gentiles) were grafted in.
Non-dispensational view: There is one tree, one covenant people, and inclusion is based on faith, not ethnicity or dispensational timing.

4. “All Israel Will Be Saved” (Romans 11:25–27)

“And so all Israel will be saved…”
This phrase is often misunderstood. In a non-dispensational reading:
  • “All Israel” refers to the full number of the elect, both Jew and Gentile, who come to faith in Christ.
  • Alternatively, it may refer to a future large-scale turning of ethnic Jews to Christ, but still within the one covenant community, not a separate dispensation.
Key point: Salvation is always through Christ, and there is no separate path or future dispensation for ethnic Israel.

5. Mercy and Mystery (Romans 11:28–36)

“For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.”
  • Paul ends with a doxology, marveling at God’s wisdom in using disobedience to bring mercy to both Jews and Gentiles.
  • The mystery is not a hidden dispensation, but the unexpected way God brings salvation through Christ.

Summary: Romans 11 in a Non-Dispensational Framework

ThemeNon-Dispensational Understanding
God's faithfulness to IsraelUpheld through the believing remnant
Gentile inclusionGrafted into one covenant people
Olive treeOne unified people of God
“All Israel”The full number of elect Jews and Gentiles, or a future mass conversion of Jews to Christ
SalvationAlways through faith in Christ, never through ethnicity or law
EschatologyNo separate future dispensation for Israel; all fulfilled in Christ


Romans 11 is not about two peoples or two plans, but about one people of God, unified in Christ, with a future that includes both Jews and Gentiles through faith. It’s a call to humility, mercy, and awe at God’s redemptive wisdom.
Would you like to explore how this ties into Romans 9–10 or how early church fathers interpreted “all Israel will be saved”?
 
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