No future hope for Israel in the Bible

[Chrysostomos]

Do you actually read the context of another's post or do you just charge ahead and fight some imagined windmill like a modern day Don Quixote? He accused me of holding some 19th century eschatological view. I showed him it's not. Please try to keep up before you spew your usual vomit all over a thread...thanks!

What’s with the meltdown?
I only stated historical facts: the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD officially condemned literal chiliasm as heresy. Since then, both Catholic and Orthodox Churches have rejected it. Do you understand the difference between the opinions of a few early figures you cited and the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD, which declared chiliasm a heresy? After that, chiliasm was mostly remembered as a footnote in heresy studies.

Then comes John Nelson Darby in the 1800s. He dug up this condemned idea from the dusty archives of heresy, baked it into his dispensationalism, and tossed in his own inventions—the rapture and a sharp split between Israel and the Church. None of that is in Scripture. Are you seriously arguing I claimed Darby invented chiliasm? I’m not disputing it’s an ancient heresy—you’re proving my point! Why the hysterics?

I’m clarifying: Darby scavenged a long-forgotten heresy, condemned in 431 AD, added his personal fantasies (rapture, Israel-Church divide), and peddled this mix of ancient error and new fiction to American Protestants, who often lack the depth to know church history or heresy. So spare me your tantrum and try keeping up with the facts.

 

[Chrysostomos]

You make your anti-Jewish (antisemitic) propaganda so obvious.

A few Brits said the same thing about Americans when asked if they love Americans

- so all Americans must believe that all Brits have the same attitude towards Americans and about Americans, and so all Americans should spread the same propaganda about British people that you are spreading above about Jews.

Your posts are so juvenile it makes me wonder if we don't have elementary school children posting here.

 

[Douggg]

I don't believe the above has happened yet. No un-walled villages and no peace - instead a daily existential battle in the face of millions of people who want to eradicate their state and violently "get rid" of every Jew living in it.

It shows that God did not bring them back into the land - it was they themselves who got themselves back into the land through their own Zionist movement - which brushed aside the biblical conditions laid down by God by which they may inhabit the land, and went ahead with that goal, anyway.

I'm not anti-Zionist by saying that. I fully understand the reason why a group of secular Jewish bankers got together in the late 1800's and set a goal - getting a homeland for the Jews in (what was then still called) "Palestine". It was a dream brought about by centuries of continuous blind antisemitism and persecution of Jews.

Before the 7th century AD no Arabs had even lived in that territory which since the days of the Roman Empire, had always been a province of some far-away empire or caliphate - but there has always been a continuous Jewish population since the days of Joshua. Archeology proves it, we don't even have to prove it using scripture alone.

So by 1947 there were both Jews and Arabs inhabiting the territory - not in major large numbers, but enough in Jerusalem to call it a city, and enough in Bethlehem. By then the Arabs had become the majority population (it's not long before the same thing happens in Germany and the U.K and France etc etc , but let's stick to history):

The U.N is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is it?

Well it was the U.N that gave the Jews their own homeland in Palestine - after partitioning most of what had for thousands of years been Judea and Samaria - between Jews and Arabs, and keeping Jerusalem out of the deal - which was supposed to be administered by the U.N as an international city, the capital of no nation.

Jordan invaded and annexed Judea and Samaria in 1948 (the West Bank), and East Jerusalem - after trying to annex all of Jerusalem (but was held back by Jewish forces). Egypt annexed Gaza, and in response, Israel annexed West Jerusalem.

That was the situation until 1967 when the six-day war saw Israel ousting Jordan from Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), and from East Jerusalem, and Egypt from Gaza - but Israel left the Temple Mount in the hands of the Muslim Arabs.

Many times Israel attempted to hand over territory to the Arabs and create a two-state solution - even offering Judea and Samaria, a.k.a "the West Bank" (and eventually, Gaza), but the "Palestinian" Arabs refused the two-state solution offers - because they claimed (and still claim) that the whole of Israel is theirs, calling it all "Palestine", even denying any Jewish ancestral presence in the land.

- and they will never stop their war against Israel and the Jews until Christ returns - because their war's basis is a religious war - Islamic.

So you are a little early on your fulfillment of Ezekiel, brother, for many reasons.

Google a map of the northern and southern kingdoms. Modern day Israel covers the territory of those two former kingdoms.

Also, Israel declared a nation again in May 14, 1948, fulfilling Isaiah 66:8 as well - a nation born in a single day.

Also, Jerusalem back in control of the Jews as their capital, in 1967. As the base year for the parable of the fig tree generation that will see Jesus's return.

Ezekiel 38-39, the Gog/Magog attack on Israel has yet to be fulfilled, but is not far from now. The event will essentially end Islam as Allah of Islam will not give Muslims victory over Israel. Instead, the God of Israel, by supernatural means will destroy the attacking forces.

 

[Chrysostomos]

Your faith in your own lies have been brushed aside by me already. What you say are words that will judge you. I am not judged by them.

Your whole argument is in any case childish. The Jews of today are still genetically descended from the Jews of yesterday, just with more Gentile DNA in their blood streams - no matter what you say (you have no genetic science to back you up - but there is enough genetic science to show up your belief in your own lies).

They are still the children of the fathers of whom Paul said, "are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen." Romans 9.

Paul called them Israelites in the same breath where he was stating that they are not all Israel who are of Israel.

So your words to me are a judgment upon Paul too.

But your faith in your lie that you believe about today's Jews "not being genetically related to the Jews of Paul's day" has you twisting scripture in order to attack today's Jews - because your own antisemtism is the basis of it.

Whether Jews or Gentiles, only those who are in God's Chosen One (Christ) are part of God's elect, a.k.a Israel

- but the Jews of today still retain enough 'Semitic' DNA - plus all the religion of the first century Christ-rejecting Rabbis handed down to them, to prove they are genetic descendants of Jacob a.k.a Israel

- and since they have always been called by the name of their ancestor Jacob, Paul had no problem with calling them Israelites in the same breath where he was saying they are not all Israel who are of Israel.

BUT It does not even matter by what name we / they/ the Martians are called - the only nation that has a covenant with God is the "nation" that has a covenant with God made in Christ's blood.

Your whole argument is childish.

Deconstructing the Myth of Genetic Jewish Identity: A Data-Driven Analysis​

The debate over Jewish origins, particularly concerning Ashkenazi Jews and modern Israeli identity, is often clouded by oversimplified genetic claims. A closer examination of population genetics, history, and demography reveals a far more complex picture that challenges the narrative of a direct, unbroken lineage from the ancient Israelites to the modern Israeli population.

1. The "Billions of Ancestors" Paradox: We Are All Related
Any discussion of ancient ancestry must begin with a simple mathematical reality. Each person has 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, and this number doubles every generation. Projecting this back 2,700 years results in a number of theoretical ancestors that far exceeds the global population at the time. This means that everyone with roots in the Eurasian landmass is distantly related countless times over. The idea of a "pure" bloodline surviving millennia is a biological impossibility. We are all part of a single, massively interconnected human family tree.

2. The European Half: What Autosomal DNA Reveals
While much focus is placed on the Y-chromosome (the paternal line), autosomal DNA—which accounts for the entirety of one's ancestry—tells a more complete story. For Ashkenazi Jews, autosomal analysis consistently shows that approximately 50% of their genome is of European origin. This is not a minor admixture but a fundamental component of their genetic makeup, resulting from centuries of mixing with local populations in Southern and Eastern Europe. To claim an exclusive or primary Levantine ancestry is to ignore half of the genetic story.

3. The Y-Chromosome: A Single Thread in a Vast Tapestry
Proponents of direct lineage often point to studies showing a high frequency of "Levantine" Y-chromosomes in Ashkenazi men. However, the Y-chromosome represents a single, direct paternal line out of thousands of ancestral lineages. Proving a Levantine origin for one great-great-great... grandfather does not negate the genetic contributions of the hundreds of other ancestors from different parts of the world. It is a error in logic to use this single data point to represent the entirety of a people's origins.

4. The Irony of the Soviet Aliyah: 2 Million Repatriates with Slavic DNA
The most compelling real-world evidence comes from the mass migration from the former Soviet Union. Since 1990, nearly 2 million people have repatriated to Israel under the Law of Return. A significant portion of this group consists of non-Jewish spouses, children, and grandchildren. Furthermore, even among those classified as Jewish, genetic testing would reveal a high prevalence of the Slavic Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a, which is predominant in Eastern Europe but largely absent in the Levant.

The argument that modern Israelis are direct descendants of ancient Israelites genetically collapses when confronted with this demographic reality. For a large segment of Israel's Jewish population, a direct genetic link to the Levant is nonexistent; their connection is legal, not biological.

5. The Levantine Genetic Signature: A Regional, Not a Jewish, Trait
The genetic markers labeled as "Levantine" and used to prove Jewish ancestry are not unique to Jews. These very same markers are found at high frequencies among other modern populations in the region, including Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, and Druze. If the presence of this DNA signifies descent from the ancient Israelites, then we must logically conclude that these other groups are also descendants. Alternatively, the more rational conclusion is that these markers represent the common genetic heritage of the entire Levantine region, not the exclusive patrimony of one specific group.

Conclusion

The attempt to define Jewish identity through a narrow, selective reading of genetics is scientifically flawed and historically naive. The evidence points to a different truth:

Ashkenazi Jews are a people of mixed ancestry, with significant and foundational genetic input from Europe.

The modern Israeli state is demographically diverse, with millions of citizens whose recent genetic origins lie in Eastern Europe, not the ancient Levant.

The "Levantine" genetic signal is a shared regional heritage, not a unique Jewish identifier.

 

[Chrysostomos]

Your erroneous view has no connection to reality.

It's quite the reverse.
See post #204

 

[pompadour]