Man is dead in sin and a slave to it. Don't change the subject to argue about predestination
No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !
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If God was to leave a man to himself, what we are naturally, we would never be saved, we would never seek the True God , which is the God of Election Rom 3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
We would never come to Christ, the True Christ that came only to save a particular people and not everyone without exception Matt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Who laid down His Life only for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
The Christ who was only commissioned to Give Eternal Life to Gods chosen Jn 17:2-3
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they[the elect given Him of the Father] might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Man naturally wont come to this Jesus Christ Jn 5:40
“And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
By nature we are at enmity against this Christ Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
We would never come to Christ, the True Christ that came only to save a particular people and not everyone without exception Matt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Who laid down His Life only for His Sheep Jn 10:11,15
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
The Christ who was only commissioned to Give Eternal Life to Gods chosen Jn 17:2-3
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they[the elect given Him of the Father] might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Man naturally wont come to this Jesus Christ Jn 5:40
“And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
By nature we are at enmity against this Christ Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.11
In essence Jn 6:44,65 are saying no man can believe in Christ for Salvation unless its[belief] is given. Jn 6:65
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Paul here is stating the same thing Jesus stated in Jn 6:44,65 !
Of course many men come to Christ carnally, but not Spiritually. Remember some believed on Christ because of miracles and He fed them
Jesus is saying man naturally lacks spiritually the will and ability to believe in Him, so really He talks against the man made doctrine of mans so called freewill. Man has not the ability because by nature he is dead in sin, dead to everything that is Spiritual 1 Cor 2:14. In the flesh, we as men are spiritually deaf, blind and sit in darkness Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Lk 1:79
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
While unregenerate we make our abode in spiritual darkness !
In this condition man cannot and will not come to believe in Christ. It must be given to man to believe in Christ ! 12
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Paul here is stating the same thing Jesus stated in Jn 6:44,65 !
Of course many men come to Christ carnally, but not Spiritually. Remember some believed on Christ because of miracles and He fed them
Jesus is saying man naturally lacks spiritually the will and ability to believe in Him, so really He talks against the man made doctrine of mans so called freewill. Man has not the ability because by nature he is dead in sin, dead to everything that is Spiritual 1 Cor 2:14. In the flesh, we as men are spiritually deaf, blind and sit in darkness Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Lk 1:79
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
While unregenerate we make our abode in spiritual darkness !
In this condition man cannot and will not come to believe in Christ. It must be given to man to believe in Christ ! 12
So coming to Christ, believing in Him is impossible unless its given to a man, which corresponds to being drawn by the Father, this confirms the understanding that Faith to believe in Christ for Salvation is the Gift of God Eph 2:8 , its through and by powerful grace, and not by the ability of mans freewill. 12
1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.
The scripture is the truth.
Deuteronomy 7:6-8
New King James Version
6 “For you are a [a]holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
1 John 3:1
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Love requires free will. If Jesus was not free to reject the cross then what he did for us was not out of love.
Jesus was the only truly free person who ever lived in the flesh.
John 8:34
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
No you're free to make all kinds of choices but if you arent free to walk away the you aren't with him out of love.
Our free will is bound to our ability to make them.
A slave is not his own man, he belongs to another.
God enables us to become His slave
From Slaves of Sin to Slaves of God
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were [e]delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness [f]for holiness.20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit [g]to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the [h]gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Of that enabling Jesus speaks it like this in john 6
If your good student of scripture, you should love to read what He says.
That shows you have His Word Abiding in your heart.
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
If your good student of scripture, you should love to read what He says.
That shows you have His Word Abiding in your heart.
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ”
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Rejected by His Own
41 The Jews then [g]complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is [k]food indeed, and My blood is [l]drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
Behold
Well-Known Member
God does not cause anyone to believe.
God offers Christ for us to choose, by our faith.
When God offers Christ to us, this is the Holy Spirit revealing Jesus as our Savior..
Christ explains this as......"If i be lifted up (on the Cross), i will DRAW ALL people to myself".
So, once we are DRAWN....by the Holy Spirit..to know that Jesus is Salvation and we are a sinner needing it......then we DECIDE to place our faith in Christ or we decide to wait or we decide to NOT.
The Decision......that is FAITH......is ours to decide. = Free Will
No we become and daughters not slaves. Even slaves can run away unless their chained. Slaves don't stay because they love their owners. You understand what a covenant is don't you?
Even a new heart received from regeneration can not love in the absence of free will. Youd be fine if your spouse married you not because they wanted to because they had to? Jesus died on the cross because he had to?
A new heart means a new will. The new heart is the cause Deut 30 6
And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
But if God you not one of the chosen seed, we wont get a new heart, and so you back to the op, no man by nature has a freewill to believe in Christ.
But that new will still needs to be free to walk away otherwise it's not love.
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