No Salvation Without Works

[Behold]

This is a Christian forum so most of the participants are Christians. The "likes" indicate how many of the participants agree with your posts. It is a reasonable indication of the acceptance of your position by other Christians. You're twisting the discussion to "those who hated Jesus will also hate me". That is a straw man argument.

You'll find that heretics tend to play the Martyr.
If that does not work, they run to the Mod's inbox and whine like little puppies.

And here is the thing about "LIKES">

If you are a heretic, and the forum is filled with them, you'll get a lot of them..........as that is how it works.

Its much better of course to give God as Christ on the CROSS all the credit due THEM for Salvation, Redemption, and Eternal life. = 100%.
Do that, and avoid trying to prove your works are necessary as if the Cross is not enough......and if you get some LIKES< then THOSE PEOPLE, are the ones you are teaching, as the others, are just here for the attention and the strife they cause.
Try not to be that one, JimB.

 

[robert derrick]

You just wrote a Cross denying Thread that tries to "add to" the Blood of Jesus, your filthy self righteous "works".

See the TITLE of your THREAD for an UPDATE..... Mr Legalism

God told you that your works are as a "filthy rag" and here you are comparing them to the Cross of Christ, as if they are EQUAL to Christ's Sacrifice.

Now, as this is true that ive stated about you, why would i want to take you seriously, except for the purpose of making an example ?
Who are you kidding, but yourself, Robert.
Listen, the only reason i pay attention to the self righteous legalist's who infect this Forum with the Devil's gospel, is for the sake of a New Believer who might show up on such a Thread as this one, and be Faith destroyed by someone like you.

Got that?
Is that clear enough, as i certainly dont want to be Obscure.

Is that clear enough, as i certainly dont want to be Obscure.

What is clear enough is your anger and hatred toward the teaching of Scripture, that offends your faith-only doctrine of unconditional salvation by faith only.

I have no personal animosity toward anyone, because people are free to live by whatever faith they choose.

It's a simple question:

Has your faith-only doctrine produced a pure heart for your soul, and cleanses your hands of sins of the flesh?

 

[robert derrick]

This is a Christian forum so most of the participants are Christians. The "likes" indicate how many of the participants agree with your posts. It is a reasonable indication of the acceptance of your position by other Christians. You're twisting the discussion to "those who hated Jesus will also hate me". That is a straw man argument.

You speak for Christians. Do you also speak for elect saints of God in Christ Jesus?

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Them answering the call to be saints of God are them that call upon Him from a pure heart, and ascend the hill of the Lord with a pure heart and clean hands.

Are you a Christian, but not an elect saint of God?

It's a fair question. There are those believers who do teach a difference between the two, with disobedient Christians having a lesser reward of eternal service to God, while the elect saints have the greater glory of reigning with God.

 

[robert derrick]

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

There is no salvation before and apart from overcoming the world by faith from the heart.

Being born of God is overcoming the world as sons of God.

Until there is the overcoming by doing the faith, there is no being born of God by faith only.

Until we obey the faith of Jesus in the heart, we are not born of the faith of God, but are hearers only.

Only the doers of the word are justified with God, and are the overcomers of the world, even as He overcame all flesh.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Only the overcoming doers of the world shall obtain eternal salvation and inherit everlasting life.

 

[Behold]

Is that clear enough, as i certainly dont want to be Obscure.

What is clear enough is your anger and hatred toward the teaching of Scripture,

Understand something.

Jesus said...>"no man, person, comes to the Father but by ME". John 14:6

Thats the CROSS of CHRIST......as Jesus told you..."if i be LIFTED UP (on the CROSS), i will draw ALL ALL ALL People to me"....

That is John 3:16.

See that? That is "it is FINISHED"....Jesus said from THE CROSS.

Not from the water.
Not from your self effort.

See that?
So.....That ends your gospel of works.
That ends your self saving gospel of Legalism
That ends trying to be born again by water
THat ends all fake, false, gospels.....all of them.

But i dont expect it will end yours, Robert, as you are devoted to Galatians 1:8
Apparently for the rest of your life.

 

[robert derrick]

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Once we hear the word of the gospel, we have opportunity to receive the engrafted word into our hearts, or to have knowledge of hearing only in our ears.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Until we hear and obey, there is no receiving Him into the heart.

There is no salvation before and apart from hearing and obeying His word to open the door and receive Him into our hearts.

There is no salvation before and apart from Him entering into the heart to sup with us.

 

[robert derrick]

Understand something.

Jesus said...>"no man, person, comes to the Father but by ME". John 14:6

Thats the CROSS of CHRIST......as Jesus told you..."if i be LIFTED UP (on the CROSS), i will draw ALL ALL ALL People to me"....

See that? That is "it is FINISHED"....Jesus said from THE CROSS.

Not from the water.
Not from your self effort.

See that?
So.....That ends your gospel of works.
That end your self saving gospel of Legalism
That ends trying to be born again by water
THat ends all fake, false, gospels.....all of them.

But i dont expect it will end yours, as you are devoted to Galatians 1:8
Apparently for the rest of your life.

Your refusal to answer the simple question is the answer: you are a hearer only Christian of unpurified heart and unclean hands, which you have testified of.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

God calls you a double minded sinner that refuses to love Him with all the heart.

That is why you are offended at the doctrine of Christ and eternal salvation for them that obey Him in the heart and call upon Him with a pure heart.

I would exhort you to do so for your own soul's sake, but I know you will not.

You go on to teach your faith-only uncleanness of heart to others and answer for it in the end.

I will continue preaching the doctrine of the pure of heart doing His righteousness at all times, without the condemnation of lust of the world and ongoing sins and trespasses of the devil.

And I am glad to answer for it today or tomorrow or the next.

 

[Mugre Pinzon]

The OP led me to think of the Thief on the Cross. He was in paradise with Jesus and in Heaven now. What were his works if works is required for salvation? Was acknowledging Jesus or repenting while on the cross a "work"? I don't know the answer to that but I know from the Word that he's saved. I believe that good works are a natural by product of our salvation. The person who prays is performing a good work, and I think most of God's children pray. We don't perform works to earn salvation, that is not possible. We do it because we've been made new and it is in our new nature to do so.

 

[Jim B]

You speak for Christians. Do you also speak for elect saints of God in Christ Jesus?

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Them answering the call to be saints of God are them that call upon Him from a pure heart, and ascend the hill of the Lord with a pure heart and clean hands.

Are you a Christian, but not an elect saint of God?

It's a fair question. There are those believers who do teach a difference between the two, with disobedient Christians having a lesser reward of eternal service to God, while the elect saints have the greater glory of reigning with God.

If you're a Christian then you're an elect saint of God. There is no difference.

 

[Jim B]

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

There is no salvation before and apart from overcoming the world by faith from the heart.

Being born of God is overcoming the world as sons of God.

Until there is the overcoming by doing the faith, there is no being born of God by faith only.

Until we obey the faith of Jesus in the heart, we are not born of the faith of God, but are hearers only.

Only the doers of the word are justified with God, and are the overcomers of the world, even as He overcame all flesh.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Only the overcoming doers of the world shall obtain eternal salvation and inherit everlasting life.

Is this justification by works? Either way, it's confusing and unscriptural.

 

[Triumph1300]

I believe that good works are a natural by product of our salvation.

That's what I believe as well.
Once a person is saved, by accepting what Christ did at the cross, good works come as a result of your salvation.

(Believing that good works wil save you is the same as saying: "What Christ did at the cross is not enough for my salvation".

 

[robert derrick]

The OP led me to think of the Thief on the Cross. He was in paradise with Jesus and in Heaven now. What were his works if works is required for salvation? Was acknowledging Jesus or repenting while on the cross a "work"? I don't know the answer to that but I know from the Word that he's saved. I believe that good works are a natural by product of our salvation. The person who prays is performing a good work, and I think most of God's children pray. We don't perform works to earn salvation, that is not possible. We do it because we've been made new and it is in our new nature to do so.

What were his works if works is required for salvation?

The thief with Him on the cross was under the law of Moses, not a partaker of the new covenant of Christ, which was not until His resurrection from the dead.

The Son of man had power to forgive sins on earth during the Old Covenant, and could do so from the cross to them that He chose to do so.

I believe that good works are a natural by product of our salvation.

You speak of outward works, but what of the inward which must come first?

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

There is no 'timeline' difference between believing God with the heart, and obeying God in the heart.

The outward works do follow the inward first works of the heart: we obey in the heart first, and our obedience with the body will follow.

Cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Once we begin to obey His word and purify our hearts from lust of the world, that is when His faith sinks down from between the ears to be buried deep in the good ground of an honest and good heart.

Many Christians think works following with the body, are the only works of faith to do: they skip over the first works of purifying the heart.

We think to obey the great commandment of loving our neighbors, before and apart from loving God with all the heart.

An unclean heart does not love God with all the heart.

The difference between the blood of bulls and goats and that of the Lamb of God, is that by the faith of Jesus we are given power of God to purify our hearts first, that we may then call upon Him with pure heart and do His righteousness as he is righteous.

Them of the Old Covenant could only pray for such a power with God, and the prophets searched for it, but did not find it in the law of Moses, nor with the blood of bulls and goats:

For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"

Titus 3:5

"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"

Isaiah 64:6

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away"

Romans 3:8-12

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one"

 

[robert derrick]

Is this justification by works? Either way, it's confusing and unscriptural.

Is this justification by works?

Is there any other?

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Either way, it's confusing and unscriptural.

If you are 'confused' by it, how then can you know it is false or true?

What you are saying is that it is not what you are used to hearing, and yet you cannot Scripturally prove it false:

And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.

Be honest and go ahead and say it plainly:

It is not necessary for salvation of God to have a pure heart and love God with all the heart.

Them with lust of heart and unclean hands will ascend unto the hill of the Lord.

With an unclean heart of lust, we can love God with all the heart.

We can call upon the Lord without a pure heart.

Go ahead and declare these things as true.

If you cannot, then try reading the teaching with open eyes of the heart, to actually hear what is simply being said:

Until the faith heard is obeyed in the heart ot purify it of lust, the faith remains heard only, not done:

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

[robert derrick]

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"

Titus 3:5

"not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit"

Isaiah 64:6

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away"

Romans 3:8-12

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one"

You want to stay an unclean thing of filthy rags as the unrighteous sinners of the world. That's your choice.

But the blood of the Lamb is not just that of bulls and goats to cover your uncleanness of heart and filthiness of hands, with grace.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

Once you've obeyed the faith you've so far only heard, then you will know the power of the blood with a pure heart and right mind freed from the law of sin and death.

Until then, you may remain unwashed and uncleased by the blood of the Lamb, and see yourself as just another sinner of the world before the cross.

It's too late to be justified as an unpurified believer of the God of Israel in the Old Covenant.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You want to stay an unclean thing of filthy rags as the unrighteous sinners of the world. That's your choice.

But the blood of the Lamb is not just that of bulls and goats to cover your uncleanness of heart and filthiness of hands, with grace.

Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

Once you've obeyed the faith you've so far only heard, then you will know the power of the blood with a pure heart and right mind freed from the law of sin and death.

Until then, you may remain unwashed and uncleased by the blood of the Lamb, and see yourself as just another sinner of the world before the cross.

It's too late to be justified as an unpurified believer of the God of Israel in the Old Covenant.

Exactly what are you on about?

 

[Titus]

It is impossible to be saved and obtain eternal salvation at the end of this life without obeying God with the heart and doing His righteousness even as He is righteous.

The false doctrine is thinking to be saved 'first' by faith before and apart from obeying Him.

It is the carnal minded reasoning of them that think believing is inward only, and obeying is outward only. They have not the Spirit to understand that believing and obeying begin in the heart, and neither is ever without the other.

The first and great commandment is to love God with all the heart, which is to purify our hearts with faith, even as He is pure: faith is not in the heart, until the heart is obeying the faith to purify itself of the lust of the world.

1. Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from obeying the first great commandment of God.

2. My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from loving God in deed and in truth.

Faith only before and apart from deeds is not in deed and in truth.

3. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from being justified with God in deed and in truth.

4. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from doing the word.

5. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

To eat and drink is to do His word and obey Him. Faith only is the Bread of Life uneaten.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from having His life in us.

6. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Opening the door is obeying the voice of the Lord. Hearers only hear the knocking, but obeyers open the door.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from supping with Him in an obedient heart.

7. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

The Lord is only the Lord of them that obey Him.

No man can call Him Lord, much less be saved by him, until He obeys the Lord.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from obeying the Lord as Lord.

8. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Coming to the Lord is obeying the Lord. No man is being saved before and separate from coming unto the Lord, but only when obeying Him as Lord.

Faith only comes to nothing.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from coming unto the Lord.

9. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Taking up the cross and following Him is only by obeying Him.

Faith only takes up nothing.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from coming unto the Lord.

10. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

No man knows the Lord, until he obeys the Lord.

Faith only knows nothing but what is heard only, and nothing of what is done.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from knowing the Lord.

11. Such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens.

Unholy, defiled, sinners of lust in the heart are separated from the Lord.

Faith only has repented of nothing and done nothing good.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from being reconciled to the Lord.

12. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

The good ground is only that which receives the word to obey it in the heart. No ground is good, until the word is obeyed and produces purity and righteousness of heart.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from producing good fruit of the Lord.

Robert Derrick Amen.

Now you will be called a man trying to merit your way to heaven as the catholic teaches.

Why it is an impossibility to work meritorious to earn eternal life.

Answer, Because no man is without sin,
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Only way to merit eternal life is to live a perfectly sinless life, which no man can do.

This is why it matters not how much good works you do, you will never be saved apart from Gods grace, Ephesians 2:8-9.

In Gods plan of salvation He gives two parts:

Gods part: Grace
Mans part: Faith

Without our cooperation, God will not gift us His grace.

This is why faith only cannot save anybody.
For we do not meet Gods standard to be gifted His grace if we do not obey Him.

Hebrews 5:8-9
Though He was a Son yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

Jesus taught no obedience is absent in love.

John 14:15;23
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.....
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love Him and we will come to him and make our home with him.

He who does not love Me does not keep My words.... John 14:24

Therefore the one who says they are saved without obedience,
Is saying they are saved without love for Jesus,
James 2:19
You believe there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble.

Faith alone salvation is a loveless gospel.

1John 1:4
He who says "I know Him" and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Can you be saved by not obeying Jesus' commandments?

Let me ask you this,
Can you saved without faith?

1John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

We know according to John, that we have the Holy Spirit when we obey His commandments.

Only God abides in those that love Him.
Biblical love for God is defined as obedience by Jesus, John 14:15

 

[robert derrick]

And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him.

God that is love is a doer only.

There is no having the love God before and apart from loving God.

There is no loving God in the heart before and apart from loving God with the heart.

There is no loving God with the heart before and apart from keeping His commandments from the heart.

To do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways.

To keep His commandments is to love God. Until we are keeping His commandments, we are not loving God.

There is no salvation of God before and apart from loving God, which cannot be before and apart from keeping His God.

Salvation by faith only before and apart from obeying the faith in the heart, with the heart, and from the heart is trusting in a faith and love of God that is between the ears only, with lip service of praise and thanks to God only.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Love before and apart from doing is not love.

Not love loves no man, especially not God.

Even as loving only in word and tongue is not love, so is faith only in word and tongue not faith.

Them that trust in faith only without works of faith to justify, are believing between the ears to be unconditionally saved by no faith and no love: by what God calls not love and not faith, being alone and dead.

With God, where there is no doing, there is no loving and believing.

With man, where is loving and believing only, before and apart from doing, there is self-justifying salvation before and apart from loving God.

 

[Titus]

If you're a Christian then you're an elect saint of God. There is no difference.

I have heard a few folks on this forum teach that there are two groups of Christians.

Christians who have never been saved.

Christians who are saved.

You are correct Sir.
There is no Biblical case for a person to be Christian and never have been saved.
No lost person can be a christian.
It is true that there are folks who believe they are christians and are not.
The only way you are a true born again Christian is by God saving you.
It is God that makes us christians.

I agree with Robert Derrick's first post.
But I do not agree on other points he has made.

Someone who believes there are unsaved "christians" that were never saved in the Bible.
Needs to give book, chapter and verse for evidence.

Now, it is true that a saved Christian can walk away from God and loose their salvation.

Isaiah 62:2
The gentiles shall see your righteousness, and all kings your glory. You shall be called by a new name, Which the mouth of the Lord will name.

God Himself has named His people by a new name.

Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

 

[robert derrick]

The lie of unconditional salvation by faith only, before and apart from obeying Him, is that it is authored and begun by Jesus Christ before and apart from obeying Him.

They preach a salvation that only begins with faith only, and never ever begins with obeying the faith: their salvation is not authorized to begin with obeying Him, but must only begin by faith only.

However,

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

He became the author and beginner of eternal salvation for them that obey Him.

His authorship only begins with them that obey Him.

Jesus Christ does not author any salvation that begins before and apart from obeying Him.

No man is saved by faith only, which is not the salvation authored by Jesus Christ that begins with obeying Him.

Jesus is not the author of any salvation that begins by faith only before and apart from obeying Him.

The unconditional salvation of faith only, before and apart from obedience to His faith, is the unauthorized version of man only.