Noah, Ham, and Canaan

[Nancy]

Hi all,
Just been re reading Genesis and, coming across the story of Noah growing a vineyard and then getting drunk on the wine.
What is confusing to me is that Noah cursed Canaan, Ham's son when he was not even there. Typo maybe?? Ham is the one who had no shame, not his dad...anybody know what's up with this?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Do you think he was establishing the curse on the lineage of Ham, or prophesying the curse on his lineage? I ask that because in the case of Shem I see Noah prophesying the predetermined favor of God on the line of Shem from which the seed, Jesus, will come from, not necessarily making it so from that point forward.

 

[Nancy]

Do you think he was establishing the curse on the lineage of Ham, or prophesying the curse on his lineage? I ask that because in the case of Shem I see Noah prophesying the predetermined favor of God on the line of Shem from which the seed, Jesus, will come from, not necessarily making it so from that point forward.

Hmm, not sure. Also didn't think there is a distinction between the bros. lineage.
The curse on Canaan makes me think about the mark of Cain. But the punishment is different whereas Canaan was cursed to be a servant of servants and Cain was banished, but kept protected. The only thing I could think of is that perhaps Canaan started the Islamic root? If you are thinking of the "slavery" aspect...I'd say that has not a thing to do with it. But, that's just MO

 

[Taken]

Hi all,
Just been re reading Genesis and, coming across the story of Noah growing a vineyard and then getting drunk on the wine.
What is confusing to me is that Noah cursed Canaan, Ham's father when he was not even there.

Canann, was Ham's son (Gen 9:18).

Typo maybe?? Ham is the one who had no shame, not his dad...anybody know what's up with this?

Ham, (son of Naoh) shamed Noah, his own father, by;
1) entering Noah's private tent without forewarning.
2) seeing Noah's nakedness (Flesh naked shame).
3) then gossiped behind Noah's back, about seeing his father's "nakedness/shame", to his brothers.

A father's custom, was to Bless his sons, which would have been Hams' right to DO toward Canaan. There is no notice of Ham having yet blessed his son Canaan, but the grandfather, Noah, stepped in and cursed his grandson (Canaan), (with a specific curse of being a "Servant"), for Hams LACK honor to his own father (Noah).

The point of man blessing his son...is a reflection "on" the father of having "taught the son according to Gods Word"...and the son "having been a diligent and receptive "student" of Gods Word.

BY the Scripture presented... The indication is: Noah taught his sons, how to honor their father. Two of Noah's sons, obviously accepted Noah's teaching, and did not shame their father, but in fact treated their father with honor.
Ham, obviously, didn't.

My view is, Noah, likened Hams dishonor toward his own father, would likely be, the case, for Hams Own son.

IOW- a case of ... IF Ham was taught to honor his father...and didnt...what is the expectation of Ham to teach his own son Parental honor....by words ONLY and NOT example?

And? Setting a poor precedent "generationally"? When "WHAT Canaan", didn't "Learn" from his father (Hams) Example, Canaan could learn from "being a servant", to other family members, whose "Examples", were good examples in "how to honor parents".

God Bless,
Taken

 

[marks]

Hi all,
Just been re reading Genesis and, coming across the story of Noah growing a vineyard and then getting drunk on the wine.
What is confusing to me is that Noah cursed Canaan, Ham's father when he was not even there. Typo maybe?? Ham is the one who had no shame, not his dad...anybody know what's up with this?

Hi Nancy,

Ham was Canaan's father, so Ham did the deed, and his son was cursed.

Genesis 9:21-27
21) And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22) And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23) And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24) And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25) And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26) And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27) God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

This reminds me of Coniah, son of Jehoiakim, an evil king.

Jeremiah 22:28-30
28) Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
29) O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
30) Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

It seems to me that God treats humanity something like a tree. We are all part of the same humanity, on different branches. God telling Abraham that in him all the families of the earth will be blessed. God chose Abraham, and after him Isaac, and after him Jacob, and then all who sprang from Jacob.

Jesus came a new tree, and we become part of Him.

This speaks towards how Adam's guilt is our guilt, because it's not Adam's guilt, it's Humanity's guilt. His corruption is our corruption because we were all 'in the loins of Adam' when he transgressed.

Some of my thoughts . . .

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy,

Ham was Canaan's father, so Ham did the deed, and his son was cursed.

Genesis 9:21-27
21) And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22) And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23) And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24) And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25) And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26) And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27) God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

This reminds me of Coniah, son of Jehoiakim, an evil king.

Jeremiah 22:28-30
28) Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
29) O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.
30) Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.

It seems to me that God treats humanity something like a tree. We are all part of the same humanity, on different branches. God telling Abraham that in him all the families of the earth will be blessed. God chose Abraham, and after him Isaac, and after him Jacob, and then all who sprang from Jacob.

Jesus came a new tree, and we become part of Him.

This speaks towards how Adam's guilt is our guilt, because it's not Adam's guilt, it's Humanity's guilt. His corruption is our corruption because we were all 'in the loins of Adam' when he transgressed.

Some of my thoughts . . .

Much love!

Well,
That was a very good post Marks. It clarifies some things, thanks!

 

[Nancy]

Canann, was Ham's son (Gen 9:18).



Ham, (son of Naoh) shamed Noah, his own father, by;
1) entering Noah's private tent without forewarning.
2) seeing Noah's nakedness (Flesh naked shame).
3) then gossiped behind Noah's back, about seeing his father's "nakedness/shame", to his brothers.

A father's custom, was to Bless his sons, which would have been Hams' right to DO toward Canaan. There is no notice of Ham having yet blessed his son Canaan, but the grandfather, Noah, stepped in and cursed his grandson (Canaan), (with a specific curse of being a "Servant"), for Hams LACK honor to his own father (Noah).

The point of man blessing his son...is a reflection "on" the father of having "taught the son according to Gods Word"...and the son "having been a diligent and receptive "student" of Gods Word.

BY the Scripture presented... The indication is: Noah taught his sons, how to honor their father. Two of Noah's sons, obviously accepted Noah's teaching, and did not shame their father, but in fact treated their father with honor.
Ham, obviously, didn't.

My view is, Noah, likened Hams dishonor toward his own father, would likely be, the case, for Hams Own son.

IOW- a case of ... IF Ham was taught to honor his father...and didnt...what is the expectation of Ham to teach his own son Parental honor....by words ONLY and NOT example?

And? Setting a poor precedent "generationally"? When "WHAT Canaan", didn't "Learn" from his father (Hams) Example, Canaan could learn from "being a servant", to other family members, whose "Examples", were good examples in "how to honor parents".

God Bless,
Taken

Oh gosh, I really messed up there, mixed up who the father was with the son.
It's all about honor then...and if not learned by example they will learn by serving...?
Thanks for the reply.
nancy

 

[jaybird]

Hi all,
Just been re reading Genesis and, coming across the story of Noah growing a vineyard and then getting drunk on the wine.
What is confusing to me is that Noah cursed Canaan, Ham's father when he was not even there. Typo maybe?? Ham is the one who had no shame, not his dad...anybody know what's up with this?

Gen does not explain it, Ham saw Noah naked, Canaan gets cursed? Doesn't make a lot of sense. Why Canaan and what's so bad about seeing your dad naked?
I think originally Genesis was a summary of several books, it covers a long timeline and in that timeline were other books, Enoch, Jasher, book of wars, book of Noah, etc. I think these books went in to more detail on many of the periods of Gen. These books are all mentioned by name in the bible with exception to Enoch which was quoted.
Enoch, one of the few that was found, has Noah drinking to much, passing out, and ham either has sex or rapes his mother, she gets pregnant and the offspring of the union (Canaan) is cursed.

 

[Taken]

Oh gosh, I really messed up there, mixed up who the father was with the son.
It's all about honor then...and if not learned by example they will learn by serving...?
Thanks for the reply.
nancy

That's my understanding, as is the Principles and Standards from the Beginning, (honor, Trust, Truth, marriage, etc.) are established for mankind to hear, learn, practice ...for the Real Deal...being a Forever, True, Trusting, Faithful Relationship with God.
Some people, I think are too hard on themselves, when errors or failures happen between people; when really, think about it; People relationships on this Earth, all end.
And a True relationship with God is Permanent.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello,

Please find attached a PDF file of the Genealogies from Noah to Abraham as recorded in Genesis 11. The chart shows no timeline of when the respective patriarchs of the families/nations were born, only the linage of the families as found in Genesis 10:1 -11:26.

The information to create a timeline of when the respective patriarchs lived is not so easily found in the Bible or in the Book of Jasher. What we know to create a timeline is that Shem was born to Noah when Noah was 503 years old and that Nimrod was responsible for building the Tower of Babel and that the families/nations from the respective patriarchs were scattered after God confused their language during the time of Pegel's life. A second PDF file has been attached to show my understanding of how the lives of some of the Patriarchs may have overlapped each other.

I trust that the two PDF files are useful for you all and helps to put the Genesis account of the Genealogies as found in chapters 10 and 11.

Shalom

 

[FHII]

The only thing I could think of is that perhaps Canaan started the Islamic root?

In a later post in this thread by Marks you seemed to get some answers. However, I wanted to comment on this... The Islamic root actually come from Ishmael, which of course, is through Abraham and Hagar. Ishmael had 12 sons who in much later years were regarded as the 12 princes of Islam. Such a title, of course, isn't in the Bible since Islam was started around 600 AD.

 

[Cooper]

Hi all,
Just been re reading Genesis and, coming across the story of Noah growing a vineyard and then getting drunk on the wine.
What is confusing to me is that Noah cursed Canaan, Ham's son when he was not even there. Typo maybe?? Ham is the one who had no shame, not his dad...anybody know what's up with this?

Gen 9:24, 25 When he awoke, Noah pronounced a curse on Canaan. The question arises, "Why did the curse fall on Canaan instead of Ham?" One possible explanation is that the evil tendency which was manifested in Ham was even more pronounced in Canaan. The curse was thus a prophecy of his immoral conduct and its fitting punishment.

Another explanation is that Canaan himself committed some vulgar act against his grandfather, and that Noah later became aware of it. Noah knew what his younger son had done to him. It may be that verse 24 refers to Canaan as Noah's youngest grandson, rather than to Ham as his younger son. In the Bible, "son" often means "grandson" or other descendant. In this event, Canaan was not cursed for his father's sin, but for his own.

Yet another possibility is that God's grace allowed Noah to curse only a small segment of Ham's descendants and not a possible third of the human race. (Believers Bible)

Gen_9:25-27
The prophecy consists of two parts - a malediction and a benediction. “Cursed be Kenaan.” A curse Gen_3:14, Gen_3:17; Gen_4:11 is any privation, inferiority, or other ill, expressed in the form of a doom, and bearing, not always upon the object directly expressed, but upon the party who is in the transgression. Thus, the soil is cursed on account of Adam the transgressor Gen_3:17. It is apparent that in the present case the prime mover was Ham, who is therefore punished in the prospect of a curse resting on his posterity, and especially on a particular line of it. Let us not imagine, however, that the ways of the Lord are not equal in this matter; for Kenaan and his descendants no doubt abundantly deserved this special visitation. And as the other descendants of Ham are not otherwise mentioned in the prophecy, we may presume that they shared in the curse pronounced upon Kenaan. At all events, they are not expressly included in the blessing pronounced on the other two divisions of the human family, It is proper to observe, also, that this prediction does not affirm an absolute perpetuity in the doom of Ham or Kenaan. It only delineates their relative condition until the whole race is again brought within the scope of prophecy. (Albert Barnes)
.