Not Asleep, But Comatose

[Phoneman777]

Everywhere you turn, we find the Pre-Tribulaiton Rapture theory convincing Western Christians that we need not be concerned with end time suffering/persecution/death decrees, etc., because "we'll be gone when the 7 years of Tribulation begin". That aside, it is not my purpose here to enter into a Rapture debate, but to draw the attention of these individuals away from what seems to occupy their minds the most - a perpetual round of self indulgence at the buffet table of worldly entertainment and the so-called "Christian" version of it which is anything but - toward what is happening at this very moment all around the world...

...and right before our eyes.

Are there not at this very moment born-again believers in many places around the world who have been taught the Pre-Rapture theory finding themselves being dragged from their homes, schools, and churches by emissaries of the Antichrist and being tortured, murdered, and beheaded? Are not many of these Christians who have not prepared themselves by diligent prayer and supplication for the Holy Spirit to purify themselves of every stain of sin denying the Savior and professing allegiance to Allah in a desperate, mostly vain attempt to spare their own lives?

To those of us in Christendom who find themselves in a self-induced coma, I say most emphatically, "WAKE UP!" The political, economic, and religious leaders of the nations are in league with Lucifer and are pushing the world towards a New World Order. For the first time in history, technology has made possible the level of complete surveillance and control over the people of the nations - as well as the swift identification and execution of dissenters - which is necessary to globally enforce the "mark of the beast" and the death decree which will follow. To Christians who live in the "land of the free", which is fast becoming anything but, I simply ask that we awaken to the reality that religious freedom will soon be gone and we will be called to either stand up for Jesus under penalty of death or deny Jesus before men and have Him deny us before His Father.

 

[7angels]

that same technology has allowed christians to reach people who were previously unreachable. but i do agree with you that christians are too lax. a disciple according to definition is a martyr. in other words we should be dead to ourselves and be serving God passionately whether a pretrib is happening or not. we should have the attitude that if the pretrib happens great but to prepare for the worst. if we were prepared to go through the great tribulation then anything that happens around us will never shake our faith. but people use the pretrib and mid trib raptures as a reason to say well i don't have to worry about the great trib because i will be gone before that actually takes place. wake up people and look around you. christians are already being martyred and the great trib has not even started yet. are you prepared to be martyred? are your children prepared?

God bless

 

[ATP]

I'm Mid-Trib. Matt 24:29-31 tells us of the rapture, and Rev 6:12-13 tells us when it will occur, at the sixth seal. There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars and there will be earthquakes.

Isaiah 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
Luke 21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.
Rev 6:12-13 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

2 Thess 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

- ATP

 

[pom2014]

@phoneman777

Lucifer, a name dropped in by Jerome to fight heretical elements of his time. Carelessly carried over by the king James version.

Right there the biggest hole is shot into your tirade.

Now onto the new world order. This is a myth. The greatest obfuscation of the enemy.

Read these words and say them out loud.

There
Is
No
New
World
Order

There
Is
Only
The
Old
World
Order
Of
Fallen
Men
And
Worship
Of
Mammon

Please for goodness sake stop the madness of mythology and stamp it out of your head.

This is great delusion. Stop it.

 

[Phoneman777]

@phoneman777

Lucifer, a name dropped in by Jerome to fight heretical elements of his time. Carelessly carried over by the king James version.

Right there the biggest hole is shot into your tirade.

Now onto the new world order. This is a myth. The greatest obfuscation of the enemy.

Read these words and say them out loud.

There
Is
No
New
World
Order

There
Is
Only
The
Old
World
Order
Of
Fallen
Men
And
Worship
Of
Mammon

Please for goodness sake stop the madness of mythology and stamp it out of your head.

This is great delusion. Stop it.

My friend, Revelation 18:1-4 KJV clearly depicts in the last days a global apostate religious system ("Babylon") to which the united governments of the world surrender their authority ("kings of the earth") as she enrichens the members of the global economic cartel ("merchants of the earth") who are surrendered to her as well.

 

[7angels]

WITH ALL THE evidence and research i have done into the rapture i have come to one conclusion so far. if Jesus comes before the great trib then hey who am i to complain. if Jesus decides to come mid trib i am fine with it. if Jesus comes post trib(which i doubt do to various reasons) i am still fine with it. in fact i prefer the option of being able to go through the great trib from beginning to end. i believe i can make a difference.

anyway why is the rapture such an important debating subject? it does not matter whether the rapture happens before, after or during the great trib. it is not a salvation issue that can make or break a person and send them to hell. i think our priorities are mixed up because the issues we should be standing up for we are acting like it does not even matter. why do we not get fervent about getting our family, friends, neighbors, and ect saved? i believe it is because our love is not for others but our love is growing cold as the Word says. if you really loved your family, friends, and ect as yourself then you would be out there telling others about the good news of Jesus. when christians are asked if they are glad they are saved i almost always get the same answer of yes i am glad i got saved. yet if they are glad they got saved and we are supposed to treat others like ourselves then why do we not try and bring everyone else the good news so they can be saved. it is because we don't love them enough to step up and be an individual and not care what others think or say or do. those that do go out and spread the gospel of Christ i bless and honor you but to everyone else i say wake up and repent of your ways and make a change and start heading in that new direction.

God bless

 

[Phoneman777]

WITH ALL THE evidence and research i have done into the rapture i have come to one conclusion so far. if Jesus comes before the great trib then hey who am i to complain. if Jesus decides to come mid trib i am fine with it. if Jesus comes post trib(which i doubt do to various reasons) i am still fine with it. in fact i prefer the option of being able to go through the great trib from beginning to end. i believe i can make a difference.

anyway why is the rapture such an important debating subject? it does not matter whether the rapture happens before, after or during the great trib. it is not a salvation issue that can make or break a person and send them to hell. i think our priorities are mixed up because the issues we should be standing up for we are acting like it does not even matter. why do we not get fervent about getting our family, friends, neighbors, and ect saved? i believe it is because our love is not for others but our love is growing cold as the Word says. if you really loved your family, friends, and ect as yourself then you would be out there telling others about the good news of Jesus. when christians are asked if they are glad they are saved i almost always get the same answer of yes i am glad i got saved. yet if they are glad they got saved and we are supposed to treat others like ourselves then why do we not try and bring everyone else the good news so they can be saved. it is because we don't love them enough to step up and be an individual and not care what others think or say or do. those that do go out and spread the gospel of Christ i bless and honor you but to everyone else i say wake up and repent of your ways and make a change and start heading in that new direction.

God bless

Actually, knowing how Jesus comes back is most certainly an issue of salvation, for if we fail to ascertain from Scripture the manner in which He comes, we will most certainly be deceived by the counterfeit "second coming" of Satan. The Jews taught that the Messiah would come as a Lion and thus failed to perceive His advent when He came as a Lamb. Now, when the Bible says that He is to come back as a Lion, the Christian world is teaching that He is to come as a Lamb in which He will quietly sneak into town and sneak out with the saints.

Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib scenarios fail to incorporate one important revelation of Scripture: a completely destroyed Earth devoid of human activity. The only scenario which incorporates this is Post Trib, where the Second Coming and Rapture are simultaneous, leaving behind the wicked living to drop dead where they stand on a destroyed planet which will remain a "prison house" for Satan and his angels for a thousand years, until He and the saints return to judge them and execute them for eternity.

 

[Born_Again]

Actually, knowing how Jesus comes back is most certainly an issue of salvation, for if we fail to ascertain from Scripture the manner in which He comes, we will most certainly be deceived by the counterfeit "second coming" of Satan. The Jews taught that the Messiah would come as a Lion and thus failed to perceive His advent when He came as a Lamb. Now, when the Bible says that He is to come back as a Lion, the Christian world is teaching that He is to come as a Lamb in which He will quietly sneak into town and sneak out with the saints.

Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib scenarios fail to incorporate one important revelation of Scripture: a completely destroyed Earth devoid of human activity. The only scenario which incorporates this is Post Trib, where the Second Coming and Rapture are simultaneous, leaving behind the wicked living to drop dead where they stand on a destroyed planet which will remain a "prison house" for Satan and his angels for a thousand years, until He and the saints return to judge them and execute them for eternity.

I actually agree with 7angels. I have stated my opinion on this matter before. If you are honestly capable of being deceived by a false prophet, then you never knew Him to begin with. If you have to question whether or not this person is the messiah or not, then you have doubt. And doubt is not a good thing to have in Christ. That means you don't trust Him. If you walk close with Him, then when trib hits, you wont be the least bit worried about your own salvation. I think too much time is spent trying to figure out God's plan and design and not enough faith and trust put in Him and that He will take care of you. Faith like a child!!! Children aren't concerned with the rapture and neither should we be, to this great of length anyways.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Phoneman, Your words: "Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib scenarios fail to incorporate one important revelation of Scripture: a completely destroyed Earth devoid of human activity.

I don't see this description anywhere in the scrips, especially in Rev. Could you post some?

Hi Born Again, Your words: "I think too much time is spent trying to figure out God's plan and design and not enough faith and trust put in Him and that He will take care of you!"

While I agree with your sentiment in general, I think regarding the end times, it's a little naive. Various scriptures declare the great trib as a time of testing and judgment upon the church. The question becomes; will you still have faith and trust in Him if He doesn't "take care of you"? (in the short term). The answer to that is why knowledge of God's end times plans are vital to a christian's well being if they fail to plan for the hard times as instructed by God throughout scripture!

 

[JimParker]

I'm Mid-Trib. Matt 24:29-31 tells us of the rapture, and Rev 6:12-13 tells us when it will occur, at the sixth seal. There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars and there will be earthquakes.

Isaiah 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.
Matt 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
Luke 21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.
Rev 6:12-13 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

2 Thess 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

- ATP

The so-called "rapture" is a modern, theological invention dating only from the 1st half of the 19th century. It was totally unheard of anywhere in the church until that time. It is not part of the apostolic teaching.

<<Matt 24:29-31 tells us of the rapture, and Rev 6:12-13 tells us when it will occur>>

Actually, the only (single) reference to any kind of "rapture" is at 1Th 4:15-17

For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

By that clearly stated passage, we are told that what has come to be caled "rapture" will happen when the Lord returns at the end of the age.

Meeting the Lord in the air correlates with the contemporary (1st century, middle eastern) practice of people going out from a city in celebration to welcome a visiting King and escorting him into the city.

Mat 24:30-31 correlates with 1Th 4:15-17 as happening at the end of the age. The passage that begins at Mat 24:1 ends at 25:46 and has to do with His second coming when he established His kingdom on earth and judges the living and the dead.
"...then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

So the elect will meet the King of Kings and Lord of lords in the air and escort Him to His kingdom.

Then the angels will gather all the (living and deceased) people of the earth and set them before the King in two groups. (sheep and goats)

Then the king will pronounce judgment on the people, rewarding those who obeyed His commands by being merciful and banishing those who did not.

As for the tribulation, what do you think the 20th century was? It began and ended with war, starting in the Balkans, spreading to engulf the entire world (except Switzerland which was holding everyone's money) and then back to the Balkans again. (Over 200 million dead)

Now, the entire Middle East is at war, Israel is surrounded by her enemies who are intent on annihilating every Jew in the region, and the foremost terrorist supporting regime in the world (Iran) is working on nuclear weapons development in order to destroy "the Great Satan". (that's us.)

Meanwhile, fundamentalist Muslim in the Middle East and Africa armies are seeking out and murdering Christians (That might be what John was talking about at Rev. 12:17) while the carry out their Jihad in hope of establishing a world-wide caliphate under Sharia law.

Meanwhile, here at home in the USA, the left is waging war against the church.

Does that seem like "tribulation"?

And, since the 7 year figure come from the symbolic language of the Apocalypse, it could very well refer to a full measure rather than a specific number of years. (Of course, that would ruin everyone's charts.)

Revelation contains highly symbolic language (apocalyptic) and does parts of Ezekiel and Daniel, and is not suitable material on which to base doctrine without extensive, CLEAR, support from non-apocalyptic material. Unfortunately, apocalyptic material is also a wonderful and bountiful source of all kinds of ear-tickling new books, tapes, cds and videos which peddlers of the latest winds of doctrine are delighted to supply.

The Apocalypse of Jesus Christ (Revelation) is not clear language. Rev 6 is part of an ecstatic vision which John experienced and put in words as best he could. People are happy to come up with all kinds of exciting "interpretations" of the Apocalypse because it can be made to appear to say almost anything.

Bottom line: Jesus is coming once more, at the end of the age, when the dead shall rise and those still alive will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air, after which there will be a judgment and realization of His eternal reign on earth.

Amen.

 

[ATP]

The so-called "rapture" is a modern, theological invention dating only from the 1st half of the 19th century. It was totally unheard of anywhere in the church until that time. It is not part of the apostolic teaching.

I'm confused here. So you do not believe in a rapture?

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman, Your words: "Pre-Trib and Mid-Trib scenarios fail to incorporate one important revelation of Scripture: a completely destroyed Earth devoid of human activity.

I don't see this description anywhere in the scrips, especially in Rev. Could you post some?

Hi Born Again, Your words: "I think too much time is spent trying to figure out God's plan and design and not enough faith and trust put in Him and that He will take care of you!"

While I agree with your sentiment in general, I think regarding the end times, it's a little naive. Various scriptures declare the great trib as a time of testing and judgment upon the church. The question becomes; will you still have faith and trust in Him if He doesn't "take care of you"? (in the short term). The answer to that is why knowledge of God's end times plans are vital to a christian's well being if they fail to plan for the hard times as instructed by God throughout scripture!

Sure brother, here they are:

Isaiah 24:1 KJV
Isaiah 24:3-6 KJV
Isaiah 24:19-23 KJV

(Along with the destruction of Jerusalem at the hands of Nebuchadnezzer, Isaiah also co-mingles a depiction of destruction that is possible only by the hand of God.)

Jeremiah 4:23-28 KJV (..."there was no man and all the cities were broken down at the presence of the Lord and by His fierce anger", a clear reference to the Second Coming)

Jeremiah 24:31-33 KJV (as the man of sin is "consumed with the Spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His coming, the wicked drop dead in their tracks b/c they were unprepared to stand (Revelation 6:17 KJV) in the glory of the Second Coming.)

 

[JimParker]

I'm confused here. So you do not believe in a rapture?

<< I'm confused here. So you do not believe in a rapture?>>

I believe what Paul taught in his letter to the Thessalonians: When Jesus returns, the dead in Christ will rise then those still alive will be caught up into the air to meet the Lord and to be with Him forever. (Period. End of teaching.)

What I do not accept is the Pre/mid/post tribulation and secret "other" 2nd coming of the Lord to snatch His people out of the tribulation according to the innovative imagination of John Darby who either invented the whole thing around 1830 or reworked the random notions of a very few predecessors. Unfortunately, it has captivated a large part of the Western church in spite of the fact that it was never a doctrine of any part of the church for the entire previous 1800 years of the church. But then, most of the western church has absolutely no knowledge, let alone an appreciation, of the importance of the teachings of the early church. (Pentecost through the 7 great councils)

 

[ATP]

What I do not accept is the Pre/mid/post tribulation and secret "other" 2nd coming of the Lord to snatch His people out of the tribulation according to the innovative imagination of John Darby who either invented the whole thing around 1830 or reworked the random notions of a very few predecessors. Unfortunately, it has captivated a large part of the Western church in spite of the fact that it was never a doctrine of any church. (Pentecost through the 7 great councils)

Well, I don't believe scripture speaks of a 7 year tribulation however.
But I do believe it speaks of a 3.5 year GREAT tribulation revealing God's wrath unto mankind.
I guess you can consider me Pre-Wrath.

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

 

[JimParker]

Well, I don't believe scripture speaks of a 7 year tribulation however.
But I do believe it speaks of a 3.5 year GREAT tribulation revealing God's wrath unto mankind.
I guess you can consider me Pre-Wrath.

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

<<I do believe it speaks of a 3.5 year GREAT tribulation>>

Why???

The term, "the great tribulation" is found only once in the Bible at Rev. 7:14. It is a part of an apocalyptic vision.

The earth has seen repeated times of tribulation since the 1st century. Very few lasted only 3.5 years. The "Black Death: lasted 7 years and killed between 75 and 200 million people in Europe. The Vietnamese experienced the tribulation of constant warfare for 30 years. Northern Europe had a century of religious wars of the Reformation. The 20th century has been called the century of war. And the church has suffered through all of those.

<<1 Thess 5:9-10>>

That's talking about entering the kingdom of heaven rather than going to hell, not "the great tribulation."

<<Rev 6:12-14>>

Yes, that's a great example of a highly symbolic, apocalyptic vision.

Don't build doctrines on apocalyptic visions that we won't fully understand until what they describe comes to pass and is over.

That is the error of the New Advent movement and the spin-offs from that failed movement; the 7th Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses. Why perpetuate that error? It's what Einstein called insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

 

[ATP]

<<I do believe it speaks of a 3.5 year GREAT tribulation>>

Why???

The term, "the great tribulation" is found only once in the Bible at Rev. 7:14. It is a part of an apocalyptic vision.

Matt 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Jer 30:7 ESV Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it.

The earth has seen repeated times of tribulation since the 1st century. Very few lasted only 3.5 years. The "Black Death: lasted 7 years and killed between 75 and 200 million people in Europe. The Vietnamese experienced the tribulation of constant warfare for 30 years. Northern Europe had a century of religious wars of the Reformation. The 20th century has been called the century of war. And the church has suffered through all of those.

These are called birth pains. Birth pains and God's wrath are polar opposite events.

Matt 24:4-8 NIV Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Rev 12:2 NIV She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

<<Rev 6:12-14>>

Yes, that's a great example of a highly symbolic, apocalyptic vision.

Don't build doctrines on apocalyptic visions that we won't fully understand until what they describe comes to pass and is over.

That is the error of the New Advent movement and the spin-offs from that failed movement; the 7th Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses. Why perpetuate that error? It's what Einstein called insanity: Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Here we have an earthquake, sun, moon and stars..

Matt 24:29-31 NIV / Mark 13:24-27 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

- ATP

<<1 Thess 5:9-10>>

That's talking about entering the kingdom of heaven rather than going to hell, not "the great tribulation."

Notice it says "whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him". This is referring to the rapture and also the first resurrection all in one verse. And when does the rapture and the first resurrection occur? Right before the 3.5 year Great Tribulation when God pours out His Wrath of trumpets and bowls.

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Because we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Christians need not fear the wrath of God. We have God's promise that we are His chosen. It is true that we should fear God, since He "bought us" and He has been known to put His servants through some pretty severe tests, but we have nothing to fear about God's wrath if we believe in and follow Christ. Wrath is not for the children of God. God may discipline, rebuke, or test us, but this is always constructive--for our good!

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Rom 9:22-24 NIV What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

[JimParker]

Matt 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Jer 30:7 ESV Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it.


These are called birth pains. Birth pains and God's wrath are polar opposite events.

Matt 24:4-8 NIV Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Rev 12:2 NIV She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.


2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Here we have an earthquake, sun, moon and stars..

Matt 24:29-31 NIV / Mark 13:24-27 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

- ATP


Notice it says "whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him". This is referring to the rapture and also the first resurrection all in one verse. And when does the rapture and the first resurrection occur? Right before the 3.5 year Great Tribulation when God pours out His Wrath of trumpets and bowls.

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Because we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Christians need not fear the wrath of God. We have God's promise that we are His chosen. It is true that we should fear God, since He "bought us" and He has been known to put His servants through some pretty severe tests, but we have nothing to fear about God's wrath if we believe in and follow Christ. Wrath is not for the children of God. God may discipline, rebuke, or test us, but this is always constructive--for our good!

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Rom 9:22-24 NIV What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

<<Matt 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Jer 30:7 ESV Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it.>>

Neither of those indicate that the great tribulation will be 3.5 years.
Also, both of those use the word "great" as an adjective referring to tribulation (mat) and distress (Jer). In the teaching of dispensationalism, "The Great Tribulation" is used as a formal name of a specific event with a duration of 7 years.

In the numerology of the 1st century writers (like John), the number 7 indicates fullness, completeness and not necessarily as a specific time period.

<<Matt 24:4-8 NIV Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.>>

These have been occurring since the 1st century.

<<Notice it says "whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him". This is referring to the rapture and also the first resurrection all in one verse. And when does the rapture and the first resurrection occur? Right before the 3.5 year Great Tribulation when God pours out His Wrath of trumpets and bowls.>>

As I pointed out previously, the so-called "rapture" occurs at Jesus' 2nd coming. When He comes, the "tribulation(s) will be ended and the time of the Judgment will have arrived.

<<1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.>>

That's is referring to the fact that those who are saved will not be sent to hell (suffer wrath) but will enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Those "asleep" are those who had died. The term "asleep" was used because Jesus dais that those who believed would never die. Those awake are those who are alive in their bodies.

<<Rom 9:22-24 NIV What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?>>

What's our point?

Matt 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Jer 30:7 ESV Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it.


These are called birth pains. Birth pains and God's wrath are polar opposite events.

Matt 24:4-8 NIV Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Rev 12:2 NIV She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.


2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Here we have an earthquake, sun, moon and stars..

Matt 24:29-31 NIV / Mark 13:24-27 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

- ATP


Notice it says "whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him". This is referring to the rapture and also the first resurrection all in one verse. And when does the rapture and the first resurrection occur? Right before the 3.5 year Great Tribulation when God pours out His Wrath of trumpets and bowls.

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Because we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Christians need not fear the wrath of God. We have God's promise that we are His chosen. It is true that we should fear God, since He "bought us" and He has been known to put His servants through some pretty severe tests, but we have nothing to fear about God's wrath if we believe in and follow Christ. Wrath is not for the children of God. God may discipline, rebuke, or test us, but this is always constructive--for our good!

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Rom 9:22-24 NIV What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

You already posted that.

 

[OzSpen]

<< I'm confused here. So you do not believe in a rapture?>>

I believe what Paul taught in his letter to the Thessalonians: When Jesus returns, the dead in Christ will rise then those still alive will be caught up into the air to meet the Lord and to be with Him forever. (Period. End of teaching.)

What I do not accept is the Pre/mid/post tribulation and secret "other" 2nd coming of the Lord to snatch His people out of the tribulation according to the innovative imagination of John Darby who either invented the whole thing around 1830 or reworked the random notions of a very few predecessors. Unfortunately, it has captivated a large part of the Western church in spite of the fact that it was never a doctrine of any part of the church for the entire previous 1800 years of the church. But then, most of the western church has absolutely no knowledge, let alone an appreciation, of the importance of the teachings of the early church. (Pentecost through the 7 great councils)

Well said, Jim.

I have a fresh appreciation of some of the prominent and obscure church fathers after my recent examination of their views on Jesus' resurrection (all that I examined believed in his bodily resurrection and not some metaphorical fantasy) and the communal resurrection at the end of the age.

I have not found historical evidence of the 'Rapture' doctrine (as understood in its contemporary way) in these orthodox (small o) teachers that followed the apostles.

Keep up the excellent work of challenging our sometimes historically fuzzy views.

Oz

 

[JimParker]

Well said, Jim.

I have a fresh appreciation of some of the prominent and obscure church fathers after my recent examination of their views on Jesus' resurrection (all that I examined believed in his bodily resurrection and not some metaphorical fantasy) and the communal resurrection at the end of the age.

I have not found historical evidence of the 'Rapture' doctrine (as understood in its contemporary way) in these orthodox (small o) teachers that followed the apostles.

Keep up the excellent work of challenging our sometimes historically fuzzy views.

Oz

Thank you for encouraging my behavior. :)

jim

Matt 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Jer 30:7 ESV Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it.


These are called birth pains. Birth pains and God's wrath are polar opposite events.

Matt 24:4-8 NIV Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Rev 12:2 NIV She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.


2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Here we have an earthquake, sun, moon and stars..

Matt 24:29-31 NIV / Mark 13:24-27 NIV “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21:25-28 NIV “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Rev 6:12-14 NIV I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

- ATP


Notice it says "whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him". This is referring to the rapture and also the first resurrection all in one verse. And when does the rapture and the first resurrection occur? Right before the 3.5 year Great Tribulation when God pours out His Wrath of trumpets and bowls.

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

Because we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Christians need not fear the wrath of God. We have God's promise that we are His chosen. It is true that we should fear God, since He "bought us" and He has been known to put His servants through some pretty severe tests, but we have nothing to fear about God's wrath if we believe in and follow Christ. Wrath is not for the children of God. God may discipline, rebuke, or test us, but this is always constructive--for our good!

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Rom 9:22-24 NIV What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

You are posting replies multiple times. I doubt that you are doing it intentionally but, I'm only going to replay once. :)

 

[ATP]

Neither of those indicate that the great tribulation will be 3.5 years.
Also, both of those use the word "great" as an adjective referring to tribulation (mat) and distress (Jer). In the teaching of dispensationalism, "The Great Tribulation" is used as a formal name of a specific event with a duration of 7 years.

Actually, both Jer 30:7 ESV and Matt 24:21 KJV do represent the 3.5 year Great trib. The 3.5 years is represented here..

Dan 7:25 NIV He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.
Dan 12:7 NIV The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."
Matt 24:21 KJV For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Rev 11:2-3 NIV But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
Rev 12:14 NIV The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.
Rev 13:5 NIV The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months.

These have been occurring since the 1st century.

Correct. Scripture separates the word "tribulation" from "great tribulation".
There is a difference between the two.
The tribulation represents birth pains, and the 3.5 Year Great Trib represents God's Wrath.
Rev 16:1 NIV Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

As I pointed out previously, the so-called "rapture" occurs at Jesus' 2nd coming. When He comes, the "tribulation(s) will be ended and the time of the Judgment will have arrived.

The "tribulation birth pains" will end. Then rapture comes. Then the 3.5 year Great trib begins, God's wrath. (1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.) I would also submit that the Abomination of Desolation occurs right around rapture and the sixth seal. The Abomination of Desolation in Scripture..

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
Dan 11:31 NIV "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.
Dan 12:11-12 NIV “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Matt 24:15 NIV "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--
2 Thess 2:4 NIV He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Rev 13:14-15 NIV Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
Rev 20:4 NIV I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The term "asleep" was used because Jesus said that those who believed would never die.

Incorrect. Only God the Father is immortal. God gives us immortality at the first resurrection. Immortality is a gift of God and is given to us..1 Tim 6:16 NIV who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Rev 20:4 says they came to life, meaning they were already dead to begin with..Rev 20:4 NIV I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Why would death mean something different in the NT than the OT..

Job 10:18-22 NIV “Why then did you bring me out of the womb? I wish I had died before any eye saw me. 19If only I had never come into being, or had been carried straight from the womb to the grave! 20Are not my few days almost over? Turn away from me so I can have a moment’s joy 21before I go to the place of no return, to the land of gloom and utter darkness, 22to the land of deepest night, of utter darkness and disorder, where even the light is like darkness.”
Job 14:10-15 NIV But a man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more. 11As the water of a lake dries up or a riverbed becomes parched and dry, 12so he lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, people will not awake or be roused from their sleep. 13“If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me! 14If someone dies, will they live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come. 15You will call and I will answer you; you will long for the creature your hands have made.
Psa 6:4-5 NIV Turn, Lord, and deliver me; save me because of your unfailing love. 5Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?
Psa 30:9 NIV "What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
Psa 88:9-12 NIV my eyes are dim with grief. I call to you, Lord, every day; I spread out my hands to you. 10Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you? 11Is your love declared in the grave, your faithfulness in Destruction ? 12Are your wonders known in the place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of oblivion?
Eccl 9:5 NIV For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
Isa 38:18 NIV For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness

- ATP