Not Under Law, But Under Grace

[GracePeace]

You twist the Word of God with endless reasoning and confuse what Jesus made simple. The Lord never said, “Follow Paul to know My will,” but, “Follow Me” (John 12:26). Jesus Himself declared, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15), not Paul’s doctrines. You use Paul’s writings to set aside the clear words of Christ and His disciples, exalting a Pharisee above the Son of God. The Lord said plainly, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill” (Matthew 5:17). Your argument tears down the very commandments Jesus upheld and taught. Instead of submitting to His truth, you cloak yourself in man’s wisdom and empty debate. Repent of this twisting, for Christ warned that whoever breaks the least of His commandments and teaches others to do so “shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:19). Do not place your trust in Paul’s tangled words, but in the voice of the Master, who said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me” (John 10:27).

You have made claims, but proved none of them--and you have absolutely no answers for any argument I put forth.

As far as Matthew 5, right after Jesus said He came not to do away with the Law, but to uphold the Law, He countermanded It, prohibiting the making of a vow, calling it "of the evil one" to do so, because of the pride involved in it--that is, you're misunderstanding Jesus if you think He was teaching "do every single thing the Law says".

 

[bro.tan]

Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Not save from eternal life, but saved from the flood. This is why Jesus had to come. Paul says in Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

(v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death, which is the lake of fire. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.

So by coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize, you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again.

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation

It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

 

[GracePeace]

Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Not save from eternal life, but saved from the flood. This is why Jesus had to come. Paul says in Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

(v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death, which is the lake of fire. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.

So by coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize, you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again.

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation

It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

When you share broad swaths of information, and you don't quote specific claims you want to disagree with / disprove, you put your work you did not do on me : please quote what you want to debunk, and answer it.

Also, you "responded" by saying "we do have to keep God's moral laws of conduct" and cited Hebrews 10 ("if we sin wilfully") : Proverbs 18:13 says it is shame and folly to answer a matter before hearing the matter. If you had read before responding, you would not have "responded" that way, as if you were disagreeing with me, because I never disagreed, and explicitly agreed, with that idea.

I invite you to steel man my position before proceeding, just to save me time and effort endlessly correcting you because you haven't even bothered understanding what you read before replying to it. Please do not bother me--STEEL MAN my position before replying again.

Steel man definition : A steel man is the practice of deliberately reconstructing an opposing argument or viewpoint into its strongest, most compelling, and persuasive form to better understand and engage with it. It's the opposite of a straw man argument, which misrepresents or oversimplifies an opponent's position to make it easier to attack. By steelmanning, you demonstrate good faith, build empathy, and can lead to more nuanced and robust discussions, potentially even refining your own position

 

[GracePeace]

Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Not save from eternal life, but saved from the flood. This is why Jesus had to come. Paul says in Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 26 for then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

(v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death, which is the lake of fire. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.

So by coming under the blood of Jesus being baptize, you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again.

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These animal sacrificial laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation

It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

Please forgive me for being rough, but I do get upset when I'm misrepresented--yes, I agree we keep God's commandments, of course, yes, but it's not because we're under our own power, but because we're under God's power. I hope I'm being clear. Yes, we are to keep God's commandments, but it's by His Spirit of Grace. That's all I wanted to say, but certain details and objections people have, and trip over, and get confused about, I wanted to help others get untangled by addressing them. So, again, I'm sorry for being offensive, and I won't be that way anymore, but I hope I'm being clearly understood now.

 

[bro.tan]

Please forgive me for being rough, but I do get upset when I'm misrepresented--yes, I agree we keep God's commandments, of course, yes, but it's not because we're under our own power, but because we're under God's power. I hope I'm being clear. Yes, we are to keep God's commandments, but it's by His Spirit of Grace. That's all I wanted to say, but certain details and objections people have, and trip over, and get confused about, I wanted to help others get untangled by addressing them. So, again, I'm sorry for being offensive, and I won't be that way anymore, but I hope I'm being clearly understood now.

You are forgiven, peace in the mighty name of Jesus. Let me ask you to elaborate when you said, it is not because we're under our own power.

 

[LoveYeshua]

You have made claims, but proved none of them--and you have absolutely no answers for any argument I put forth.

As far as Matthew 5, right after Jesus said He came not to do away with the Law, but to uphold the Law, He countermanded It, prohibiting the making of a vow, calling it "of the evil one" to do so, because of the pride involved in it--that is, you're misunderstanding Jesus if you think He was teaching "do every single thing the Law says".

Brother, your post needs a firm correction. You charged me with “making claims” and then turned around and made serious errors of your own. You have mixed rabbinic tradition, a strained reading of Paul, and a wrong take on our Lord’s words. That must be answered plainly and from Jesus first.

Hear Jesus. He taught the first and greatest duty of every soul: “Jesus said ; ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:37–40, NKJV). He also warned that He did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17, NKJV). And He gave this plain test of life and speech: “But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.” (Matthew 5:37, NKJV).

You said Jesus “countermanded” the Law by forbidding vows and called vow-making “of the evil one.” That is a misunderstanding. Jesus did not remove God’s commandments. He exposed the Pharisaic, showy twisting of vows and the hypocrisy behind oaths. The Old Testament itself gives rules about vows (for example: “If a man vows a vow to the LORD… he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth.” — Numbers 30:2, NKJV). Jesus’ point was heart truth and plain honesty: do not invent elaborate oaths to cover falsehood or to parade your piety; speak truth simply and obey God with a humble heart. To turn His teaching into “Jesus abolished vows altogether” is wrong and careless.

You also muddled “not under the Law but under Grace.” That phrase does not mean the Law is useless or that Christians may live however they wish. Jesus himself tied obedience to love: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, NKJV). The Gospel replaces the Law as a means of earning righteousness, not as a license to live lawlessly. To set Paul against Jesus, or to use Paul to cancel the Shema (the command to love God above all), is a dangerous error. Paul’s letters emphasize faith and love for neighbor; read apart from Christ’s own words they can be twisted. It is true Paul seldom quotes the Shema the way Jesus did, and that omission has sometimes led people to understate the first commandment — but that does not excuse anyone who sidelines loving God with all the heart. Jesus put loving God first; that must stand.

Finally, your tone — accusing others of proving nothing while you appeal to rabbinic sources and strained readings — is wrong conduct for someone claiming to teach Christ. If you want to argue truth, argue from Jesus’ words first, not from Talmudic authorities or clever redefinitions. Do not misquote or overstate what Christ said about vows. Do not set Paul as a higher judge than the Lord. Humble yourself, measure everything by Jesus’ plain teachings, and put the first commandment where the Lord put it: love God above all, then love your neighbor. If you will not do that, you are answering arguments with pride, not with Scripture.

Repent of the careless claims, correct your reading of Matthew 5, and give an answer rooted in Christ’s words rather than in debate tricks. If you want, I will help you rewrite your post so it honestly follows Jesus’ teaching and does not twist His meaning.

 

[GracePeace]

You are forgiven, peace in the mighty name of Jesus. Let me ask you to elaborate when you said, it is not because we're under our own power.

God gave the Law to men "when we were without strength", as it is given "for the unrighteous, to murderers, etc" (1 Ti 1:9).
Why are they unrighteous? Because of their nature.
When men are born of God, when they are in Christ, they have a new nature.
Paul refers to "God's righteousness apart from the Law".
When a man has God's righteousness apart from the Law, are they going to fulfill the Law?
Yes!
But is it because they are "under the Law"? No, it is because they are "under Grace".
The righteousness of a man who is "under Grace" is God's, and for God's glory.
It is an expression of God, because they know God, and it leads people to God.

How is God going to finish the work of conforming us to Christ's image?
At the return of Christ, when we see Him as He is, "we will be as He is".
So, that is not "the Law", it is "Grace" : "set your hope fully upon the grace to be revealed at the revelation of the Son of God;" also, today, we are "under Grace", as 2 Co 3 says. "conformed to the same image from glory to glory". By beholding Christ, "looking away unto Christ the Author and finisher of our faith", by knowing Him, we reflect Him, and that is righteousness today--and, yes, "the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us", but it is not our righteousness for our glory, but God's righteousness for God's glory, "God at work in us to will and do for His pleasure".

In that sense, Paul says we are not under Law--not because the Law has something bad in it, but because we have something bad in us, in our flesh, but God is goodness, and "has" an abundance of the goodness which the Good Law demands, and works the goodness for "the praise of His glorious grace". "The Law, weakened through the flesh" (Ro 8:3), "having begun by the Spirit are you now being perfected by the flesh?" : the Law and the flesh are inseparable. That's the issue--there's nothing good in the flesh, but when we look to Christ, the Law is "fulfilled in us" (Ro 8:4) "apart from the Law" (Ro 3:21), because God now lives in us, works His works in us, we're not left to our own weakness.

 

[GracePeace]

Brother, your post needs a firm correction. You charged me with “making claims”

"Making claims" isn't a "charge", as if it's negative, it's literally what everyone here is doing.

and then turned around and made serious errors of your own.

Just because someone makes "claims" doesn't mean they're wrong--claims can be correct or incorrect.
A claim is not automatically an "error"--and, no, I didn't make a single error.

You have mixed rabbinic tradition, a strained reading of Paul, and a wrong take on our Lord’s words. That must be answered plainly and from Jesus first.

Paul literally teaches the same as they Pharisees--that a Jew is free from his obligation to serve by the Law when he dies--because he was a Pharisee! lol

Hear Jesus. He taught the first and greatest duty of every soul: “Jesus said ; ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:37–40, NKJV). He also warned that He did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it: “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” (Matthew 5:17, NKJV). And He gave this plain test of life and speech: “But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.” (Matthew 5:37, NKJV).

You said Jesus “countermanded” the Law by forbidding vows and called vow-making “of the evil one.” That is a misunderstanding. Jesus did not remove God’s commandments. He exposed the Pharisaic, showy twisting of vows and the hypocrisy behind oaths. The Old Testament itself gives rules about vows (for example: “If a man vows a vow to the LORD… he shall not break his word; he shall do according to all that proceeds out of his mouth.” — Numbers 30:2, NKJV). Jesus’ point was heart truth and plain honesty: do not invent elaborate oaths to cover falsehood or to parade your piety; speak truth simply and obey God with a humble heart. To turn His teaching into “Jesus abolished vows altogether” is wrong and careless.

Jesus said making a vow is a demonstration of pride, which is "of the evil one", thus He forbids making a vow--and James echoes this doctrine, "Above all, brethren, make no vow at all... ."

Jesus gets to the heart of the matter : the Torah forbade making a vow and not keeping it, but commanded the fulfillment of the vow, because it is disrespectful to God, taking His Name in vain, if you make a vow but don't fulfill it; therefore, Christ takes the principle of respecting God, "walk humbly with your God", to the highest iteration by forbidding vow-making at all, explaining it is disrespectful to God, putting yourself forward as someone who can make this or that thing happen (when you can't even make one hair white or black), to make a vow to begin with.

You also muddled “not under the Law but under Grace.” That phrase does not mean the Law is useless or that Christians may live however they wish. Jesus himself tied obedience to love: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15, NKJV). The Gospel replaces the Law as a means of earning righteousness, not as a license to live lawlessly. To set Paul against Jesus, or to use Paul to cancel the Shema (the command to love God above all), is a dangerous error. Paul’s letters emphasize faith and love for neighbor; read apart from Christ’s own words they can be twisted. It is true Paul seldom quotes the Shema the way Jesus did, and that omission has sometimes led people to understate the first commandment — but that does not excuse anyone who sidelines loving God with all the heart. Jesus put loving God first; that must stand.

I actually affirmed that when we are "under Grace" the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us, so if you want to disagree with what I've said, I'd suggest reading it more carefully.

Finally, your tone — accusing others of proving nothing while you appeal to rabbinic sources and strained readings — is wrong conduct for someone claiming to teach Christ. If you want to argue truth, argue from Jesus’ words first, not from Talmudic authorities or clever redefinitions.

I used Jesus's words, I used Paul's words, and I showed that Paul's Pharisaic teaching is literally the same tradition as was passed down through history to the Pharisees of today--again, you're seeming to disagree, but we really don't disagree (here, because I literally cited Christ).

Do not misquote or overstate what Christ said about vows.

I never did, and you can't prove that I did.

Do not set Paul as a higher judge than the Lord.

You can't quote where I did--only emptily claim this and that.
You've proven nothing against a single thing I've said (trying to help people).

 

[LoveYeshua]

"Making claims" isn't a "charge", as if it's negative, it's literally what everyone here is doing.

Just because someone makes "claims" doesn't mean they're wrong--claims can be correct or incorrect.
A claim is not automatically an "error"--and, no, I didn't make a single error.

Paul literally teaches the same as they Pharisees--that a Jew is free from his obligation to serve by the Law when he dies--because he was a Pharisee! lol

Jesus said making a vow is a demonstration of pride, which is "of the evil one", thus He forbids making a vow--and James echoes this doctrine, "Above all, brethren, make no vow at all... ."

Jesus gets to the heart of the matter : the Torah forbade making a vow and not keeping it, but commanded the fulfillment of the vow, because it is disrespectful to God, taking His Name in vain, if you make a vow but don't fulfill it; therefore, Christ takes the principle of respecting God, "walk humbly with your God", to the highest iteration by forbidding vow-making at all, explaining it is disrespectful to God, putting yourself forward as someone who can make this or that thing happen (when you can't even make one hair white or black), to make a vow to begin with.

I actually affirmed that when we are "under Grace" the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us, so if you want to disagree with what I've said, I'd suggest reading it more carefully.

I used Jesus's words, I used Paul's words, and I showed that Paul's Pharisaic teaching is literally the same tradition as was passed down through history to the Pharisees of today--again, you're seeming to disagree, but we really don't disagree (here, because I literally cited Christ).

I never did, and you can't prove that I did.

You can't quote where I did--only emptily claim this and that.
You've proven nothing against a single thing I've said (trying to help people).

I stand by the understanding that Jesus' words are the ultimate authority. His teachings on faith are clear: true faith is demonstrated through obedient action (Matthew 22:37-40, James 2:14-26). While Paul’s writings may contain valuable insights, they must be measured against the direct words of Christ and the Old Testament. The Law reveals sin, and faith is incomplete without obedience. Therefore, any teaching that undermines the Law or distorts the clear gospel of Christ is to be approached with caution.

 

[GracePeace]

I stand by the understanding that Jesus' words are the ultimate authority. His teachings on faith are clear: true faith is demonstrated through obedient action (Matthew 22:37-40, James 2:14-26). While Paul’s writings may contain valuable insights, they must be measured against the direct words of Christ and the Old Testament. The Law reveals sin, and faith is incomplete without obedience. Therefore, any teaching that undermines the Law or distorts the clear gospel of Christ is to be approached with caution.

Yeah, and Jesus says it is pride, "Of the evil one", to make a vow--you have no answer for that nor for any single thing I've stated.

As far as "faith" and "obedient action" : show me ONE time I denied that.
Your problem comes when you conclude we are all under Law. Romans 14 completely undermines this idea when it permits the situation where one believer observes a day as unto the Lord, but another does not observe that same day but does so as unto the Lord.
Paul calls the Gentile believers "doers of the Law" even though they don't possess or know the Law (Ro 2:14, 7:1).
How can that be unless they have God as their righteousness (Jer 23:6; Ro 3:21) "apart from the Law"?

"0 + 0 + 0 = 0" : you've made statements, but have proven nothing at all, and you refuse to deal with the obvious truth (eg, it is "of the evil one", pride, to make a vow) because it undermines your view.

 

[GracePeace]

I stand by the understanding that Jesus' words are the ultimate authority. His teachings on faith are clear: true faith is demonstrated through obedient action (Matthew 22:37-40, James 2:14-26). While Paul’s writings may contain valuable insights, they must be measured against the direct words of Christ and the Old Testament. The Law reveals sin, and faith is incomplete without obedience. Therefore, any teaching that undermines the Law or distorts the clear gospel of Christ is to be approached with caution.

Peter walked as though he was under Law when he was first saved and filled with the Spirit, and, through time, God revealed the actual truth on some matters to him in a vision.

Had God rejected him before he was granted the actual understanding of the truth of the Gospel?
No, of course not.

Peter came from a Torah background, and God accepts us where we are, and leads us from there, so, even though it was true Peter wasn't under Torah, it took several years before God led him into the actual truth on that matter--He has called us to peace, not to defiling our consciences. Defiling your conscience, even if it is an uninformed conscience, not informed of the actual truth, still defiles and condemns you. The brother who believes he should only eat vegetables, believes that that is what "love" is, defiles his conscience if he eats meat, and he is "condemned" (Ro 14:23), because he is not "fully persuaded in his own mind" (Ro 14:5), thus he is not revealing God's righteousness from faith to faith (Ro 1:17) (it's all about revealing God--"do all you do for God's glory"--not ourselves).

In the same way, a religious Jew who comes to faith must walk as he is convinced--he may observe dietary laws, and observe days, as Ro 14 says, and as Acts 21 demonstrates--and, from that place, God will lead him into the actual truth. It's a little bit of our own conscience, which God holds us to as if it were His own commands, and, then, it is more and more of God's actual truth.

I say that to say this : if you have a conviction, "have it between yourself and the Lord" (Ro 14), but you cannot go around pointing your finger at people who have no such conviction. Even God doesn't do that, but, rather, holds people to their own convictions, even when their convictions are uninformed. This is why it says "certain false brothers who had come in to spy out our liberty". What "liberty"? You're held accountable to your own convictions, even when you're wrong, so that you can agree with your own mind with a clear conscience, and, as time goes on, the Lord reveals more and more of His actual truth, and you walk more and more by that.

 

[undergrace1]

Not under law but under grace means not being under righteousness of obeying the law.
The reason Paul continually states you cannot be righteous by obeying the law/being under the law, is primarily because of the Ten Commandments/known much as the moral side of the law.
The rest of the law, or legalistic law as it is often termed could faultlessly be obeyed, even by the worst of sinners(Phil3:9) Yet the worst sinners could not obey the Ten Commandments( Rom7:7-11)Law you can faultlessly obey you can obviously be justified by obeying. Therefore, all of Paul's statements concerning this subject are made because of the moral side of the law.
In Paul's view, the law was far better upheld by not being under righteousness of obeying it/not being under the law(Rom3:31, Rom6:14), because:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

 

[GracePeace]

Not under law but under grace means not being under righteousness of obeying the law.
The reason Paul continually states you cannot be righteous by obeying the law/being under the law, is primarily because of the Ten Commandments/known much as the moral side of the law.
The rest of the law, or legalistic law as it is often termed could faultlessly be obeyed, even by the worst of sinners(Phil3:9) Yet the worst sinners could not obey the Ten Commandments( Rom7:7-11)Law you can faultlessly obey you can obviously be justified by obeying. Therefore, all of Paul's statements concerning this subject are made because of the moral side of the law.
In Paul's view, the law was far better upheld by not being under righteousness of obeying it/not being under the law(Rom3:31, Rom6:14), because:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

Thanks for sharing.

I agree with the jist of what you're saying--it's good we share to help equip everyone with answers to objections that might otherwise trip people up.

 

[marks]

You are not worth my time. Welcome to the ignore list!
Titus 3:10As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,

Exactly!

Much love!

 

[LoveYeshua]

Not under law but under grace means not being under righteousness of obeying the law.
The reason Paul continually states you cannot be righteous by obeying the law/being under the law, is primarily because of the Ten Commandments/known much as the moral side of the law.
The rest of the law, or legalistic law as it is often termed could faultlessly be obeyed, even by the worst of sinners(Phil3:9) Yet the worst sinners could not obey the Ten Commandments( Rom7:7-11)Law you can faultlessly obey you can obviously be justified by obeying. Therefore, all of Paul's statements concerning this subject are made because of the moral side of the law.
In Paul's view, the law was far better upheld by not being under righteousness of obeying it/not being under the law(Rom3:31, Rom6:14), because:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

The Bible shows clearly that righteousness is connected with obeying the law of God. In the Old Testament, Moses said, “Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us” (Deuteronomy 6:25). Righteousness was not separated from obedience but was the result of listening to God and keeping His word. The prophets confirmed the same truth, for God spoke through Ezekiel saying that the man who does what is lawful and right, avoids sin, and walks in His statutes and judgments faithfully, “he is just; he shall surely live” (Ezekiel 18:5–9).

Abraham is one of the strongest examples of this truth. When God tested him by asking him to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham obeyed without hesitation, showing complete trust in God. Because of this act of obedience, the Lord said to him, “Because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son—blessing I will bless you” (Genesis 22:16–17). Earlier it is written, “And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness” (Genesis 15:6). Abraham’s faith was counted as righteousness, yet that faith was proven real through his obedience. His trust and action together made him the “friend of God.”

Jesus also spoke of righteousness in connection with the commandments. He said, “Whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:19), and warned, “Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). He showed that righteousness is not only outward actions but must come from the heart. When the rich man asked about eternal life, Jesus answered plainly, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).

From the Old Testament to the words of Jesus, the teaching is the same: righteousness of obeying the law is real and necessary. Obedience to God’s commandments is what He calls righteousness, and Jesus confirmed it as the way that leads to life.

 

[undergrace1]

The Bible shows clearly that righteousness is connected with obeying the law of God. In the Old Testament, Moses said, “Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us” (Deuteronomy 6:25). Righteousness was not separated from obedience but was the result of listening to God and keeping His word. The prophets confirmed the same truth, for God spoke through Ezekiel saying that the man who does what is lawful and right, avoids sin, and walks in His statutes and judgments faithfully, “he is just; he shall surely live” (Ezekiel 18:5–9).

Abraham is one of the strongest examples of this truth. When God tested him by asking him to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham obeyed without hesitation, showing complete trust in God. Because of this act of obedience, the Lord said to him, “Because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son—blessing I will bless you” (Genesis 22:16–17). Earlier it is written, “And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness” (Genesis 15:6). Abraham’s faith was counted as righteousness, yet that faith was proven real through his obedience. His trust and action together made him the “friend of God.”

Jesus also spoke of righteousness in connection with the commandments. He said, “Whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:19), and warned, “Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). He showed that righteousness is not only outward actions but must come from the heart. When the rich man asked about eternal life, Jesus answered plainly, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).

From the Old Testament to the words of Jesus, the teaching is the same: righteousness of obeying the law is real and necessary. Obedience to God’s commandments is what He calls righteousness, and Jesus confirmed it as the way that leads to life.

Paul preached a spiritual message, that can only be understood through the Spirit:



Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNES for everyone who believeth Rom10:4



But now a righteousness APART FROM LAW has been made known to which the law and prophets testify. This righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom3:21&22



What is the result in Paul’s view of not being under righteousness of obeying the law?



For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

Do we then nullify the law by this faith?/righteousness of faith in Christ not obeying the law? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom3:31

 

[LoveYeshua]

Paul preached a spiritual message, that can only be understood through the Spirit:



Christ is the end of the law UNTO RIGHTEOUSNES for everyone who believeth Rom10:4



But now a righteousness APART FROM LAW has been made known to which the law and prophets testify. This righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom3:21&22



What is the result in Paul’s view of not being under righteousness of obeying the law?



For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

Do we then nullify the law by this faith?/righteousness of faith in Christ not obeying the law? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law Rom3:31

Are you certain you are right? What about what GOD and Jesus said? Do their word mean anything to you? their words are life and yes spirit also why are you in denial of scripture?

Jesus teaches clearly that words carry great power in the light of judgment. He warns us that “for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment” (Matthew 12:36–37), meaning our own words can justify or condemn us. Yet, even more profoundly, He speaks of the end times: “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words … the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” (John 12:48). In both, Jesus shows that words matter—not only because our words reflect our hearts, but even His words will stand as the measure of judgment in the final day when the full truth is revealed.

I know Jesus was clear when he said;
“Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). Jesus showed that righteousness is not only outward actions but must come from the heart. When the rich man asked about eternal life, Jesus answered plainly, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). Is simple belief enough to be counted as righteous? Do we need to demonstrate our faith by Obeying God in all things and do his will like Jesus die?

 

[undergrace1]

Are you certain you are right? What about what GOD and Jesus said? Do their word mean anything to you? their words are life and yes spirit also why are you in denial of scripture?

Jesus teaches clearly that words carry great power in the light of judgment. He warns us that “for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment” (Matthew 12:36–37), meaning our own words can justify or condemn us. Yet, even more profoundly, He speaks of the end times: “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words … the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” (John 12:48). In both, Jesus shows that words matter—not only because our words reflect our hearts, but even His words will stand as the measure of judgment in the final day when the full truth is revealed.

I know Jesus was clear when he said;
“Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). Jesus showed that righteousness is not only outward actions but must come from the heart. When the rich man asked about eternal life, Jesus answered plainly, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). Is simple belief enough to be counted as righteous? Do we need to demonstrate our faith by Obeying God in all things and do his will like Jesus die?

Jesus spoke when the old covenant was in existence. He told his disciples there was much more he wanted to tell them, more than they could bear, but when the Spirit of truth was sent, he would lead them into all truth. Paul had received the indwelling Holy Spirit
Paul held the law to the pristene level it was set at, so do I.
If I asked you If a person does not obey the Ten Commandments for example can they be righteous before God I wonder how you would respond?
I would like you to answer that, bearing in mind if you dwell on any impure thought you transgress those commands, as you do if you desire ANYTHING of your neighbours, whether material goods or a member of their household, as you do if you erect any graven image in your mind, or tell any even little fibs about another

 

[undergrace1]

Are you certain you are right? What about what GOD and Jesus said? Do their word mean anything to you? their words are life and yes spirit also why are you in denial of scripture?

Jesus teaches clearly that words carry great power in the light of judgment. He warns us that “for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment” (Matthew 12:36–37), meaning our own words can justify or condemn us. Yet, even more profoundly, He speaks of the end times: “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words … the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day” (John 12:48). In both, Jesus shows that words matter—not only because our words reflect our hearts, but even His words will stand as the measure of judgment in the final day when the full truth is revealed.

I know Jesus was clear when he said;
“Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). Jesus showed that righteousness is not only outward actions but must come from the heart. When the rich man asked about eternal life, Jesus answered plainly, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17). Is simple belief enough to be counted as righteous? Do we need to demonstrate our faith by Obeying God in all things and do his will like Jesus die?

It would be better to speak of us desiring to live as God wants us to live. That is taken care of under new covenant.
But concerning this subject.
If I said to you, if you think of a pink elephant God will condemn you to hell, what is the first thought that would enter your head if you believed me? You would have to believe you were under a law of righteousness concerning such a thing wouldn't you. And the result would be what you feared flourishing in your life
Consequently, if a person believes their righteousness hinges on obeying the Ten Commandments, and they understand what obedience to the tenth one entails, what then? If they dwell on any impure thought they will be cast into hell/they cannot be righteous before God. Can you escape thinking of what you fear? Or would thoughts of what you fear consume you? What could a person of faith fear more than being cast into hell?
To understand Paul's message requires an understanding of the above. He explains it well in Rom7:7-11 KJV

 

[GracePeace]

The Bible shows clearly that righteousness is connected with obeying the law of God. In the Old Testament, Moses said, “Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us” (Deuteronomy 6:25). Righteousness was not separated from obedience but was the result of listening to God and keeping His word. The prophets confirmed the same truth, for God spoke through Ezekiel saying that the man who does what is lawful and right, avoids sin, and walks in His statutes and judgments faithfully, “he is just; he shall surely live” (Ezekiel 18:5–9).

Abraham is one of the strongest examples of this truth. When God tested him by asking him to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham obeyed without hesitation, showing complete trust in God. Because of this act of obedience, the Lord said to him, “Because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son—blessing I will bless you” (Genesis 22:16–17). Earlier it is written, “And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness” (Genesis 15:6). Abraham’s faith was counted as righteousness, yet that faith was proven real through his obedience. His trust and action together made him the “friend of God.”

Jesus also spoke of righteousness in connection with the commandments. He said, “Whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:19), and warned, “Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20). He showed that righteousness is not only outward actions but must come from the heart. When the rich man asked about eternal life, Jesus answered plainly, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).

From the Old Testament to the words of Jesus, the teaching is the same: righteousness of obeying the law is real and necessary. Obedience to God’s commandments is what He calls righteousness, and Jesus confirmed it as the way that leads to life.

If you want to disagree with something I've said, please use the quote feature--as it is, I can't tell what you're differing with, since what I said was the righteousness requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us when we walk by the spirit (Ro 8:4), bc we bear the fruit thereof (Gal 5), against which there is no Law, but love fulfills the entire Law for love does his neighbor no harm (Ro 13:8-10), etc etc etc.