Now it's not me, but sin that lives in me

[marks]

Romans 7:17 "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

This simple statement encapsulates the meaning of justification as relates to the child of God. It is no longer I, but sin that lives in me.

Paul had just written that we are dead to sin, and alive unto God. That the one who has died has been "justified away from sin". Made righteous separating us away from sin.

This is the literal meaning of Romans 6


This is translated "freed from sin", because that is the result of our justification, a new life in Jesus. Having been freed from sin, justified away from sin, we can say with Paul,

"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

This is not speaking of the unregenerate, else there would have been no change, no, "no more I that do it". Paul as an unregenerate, would have still been in his sins. The sinner.

That it is "no more I, but sin that lives in me", this means that sin still lives in me, that is, in my flesh, as he goes on to explain. No longer I.

If any be in Christ, he is a new creation. Everything old is gone, and all is new, and from God!

No longer I.

I am the righteous child of God, sharing His holy nature, sharing His eternal life.

Coming to understand this truth - it is no longer I, but sin that lives in me - we can begin to make the true separation within our minds concerning what is the mind of the flesh, which we can freely repudiate and abandon, and which is the mind of Christ, which we can embrace knowing this is our joy and peace and self-control.

If we fight against the mind of the flesh by the mind of the flesh . . . well, first, bind the strongman. Our weapons are not carnal, they are mighty, tearing down strongholds, bringing every thought to the obedience of Christ.

The battle is in the mind, and we put on that helmet of salvation, knowing in our minds that we are justified away from our sin, and it is No More I, but sin that lives in me.

It's not me that is defective. I am complete in Christ. But my old man? He's a real piece of work!

Jesus be strong in me today!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Very good elucidation of the state of the Christian. We have a sinful nature from birth, but when we are reborn in Christ we take on a new nature, the pure and sinless nature of Jesus. So, our old self born of sin continues to urge us toward more sin. I notice this in microseconds of lust, my old nature works very rapidly. But, the new man in me, the spiritual man, the spirit of Jesus within me strengthens me to sin less and less over the years (a 2 second glance reduced to a 1/2 second glance, for instance).

I believe we would be wise to translate ancient language into modern science, so as to better communicate with modern non-believers. Science, even the science of Evolution, does not threaten my Christianity.

Because I believe in some aspects of the Evolutionary theory, I view this 'old man' born to sin as my biological nature, that which is passed down by genetics. My genetics and subsequent biology function according to Evolutionary theory: 'passing on my genetics to my children' is the primary law of nature (and all the subsequent effect that this has on human nature). This genetic law is built into all my biology; it is my fallen nature. From this fallen nature spring all the various sins: lust, adultery, pride, jealousy, anger deceitfulness, etc. My spiritual nature is a gift from God subsequent to my rebirth. Therefore, I must battle my old nature by relying upon the Holy Spirit, using God's Word as a guide, prayers for strength, vigilance toward the microseconds it takes to commit a sin, and perseverance until the sinful nature is subdued (at least temporarily).

I think Scripture translates very well into modern science! I think science is beginning to see that some of the corruptions of flesh looks like, even more so than some of the body of Christ.

I used to think of flesh as this "overarching nature", some force or power imposing itself upon me to make me do evil, something like that. Now what I've come to understand is that my body is corrupted.

Born with the corruption of sin, and more corruption added as I develop as a child, all those tragedies of childhood, and all the bad choices I've made, all piled up together!

I've come to see the thoughts and desires for sin as the fading voice of the body of flesh born from Adam. I rely on the verse in Galatians, that if we walk in the Spirit, we won't do the works of the flesh. So for me, I want to stay focused on walking in the Spirit.

What makes this topic important to me is that we can KNOW without any doubt at all we are forever and permanently free from sin. Though sin be found in our lives, yet, it is no more I, but sin that lives in me.

And we have Jesus' power of resurrection to give us resurrected life today.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

We can understand Romans 7 and 8 even better when knowing who Paul is talking about. He is not talking about pagans who did not even have the Law, but (chapter 7) those who have the law, and (chapter 8) those who have Christ and the indwelling Spirit.

Romans 7:17 is talking about a man who KNOWS the Ten Commandments and tries to keep them in his own strength because they are holy, but he finds he struggles against his flesh. Why? "But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me." Even after training his mind by his knowledge and will, the last verse says, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

You see, the subject and title of Romans 7 should be Freedom From the Law.

Romans 7:4 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.

So what benefit does accepting Jesus and being born again? Romans 7:6 "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

What Jesus does that the Law could not do is the title of Romans 8, Freedom From Indwelling Sin.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[marks]

Romans 7:17 is talking about a man who KNOWS the Ten Commandments and tries to keep them in his own strength because they are holy, but he finds he struggles against his flesh. Why? "But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me." Even after training his mind by his knowledge and will, the last verse says, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

Let's relook at this.

Paul writes, "It is no more I who do it". What would this mean absent the new birth? How would it be "no more I who do it"? This is speaking of someone who had undergone a fundamental change in identity.

Paul then writes, "but sin that lives in me", showing what this change was. No more I, this not about something outside of Paul, IE the Law, rather, Paul himself. A new man, born of God, and that which is born of God sins not. Old things are passed away, behold, all is become new, all is of God.

In what way could someone say that as a sinner, and having been given the Law, now, it's not them that sins, instead, it is sin that lives in them. What could that mean?

Romans 8 tells us that the flesh is hostile to God, and cannot keep God's law. How does the one who is hostile to God say that its not them that sins, instead, sin that lives in them?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Also, the beguilement of 'culture' making inroads into our belief system and behaviors. Today, pride is very much celebrated among the people of "this world", athletes who strut when they hit a home run, etc. Opulence is also valued by our culture, giving people pride for what they can afford or how beautiful their homes look.

Right, all just bending the mind more and more.

I see all of these things involved in the renewing of the mind. Learning to think according to God's Word, according to trust, and love, and not according to all of this other junk.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So what benefit does accepting Jesus and being born again? Romans 7:6 "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

Amen!

And I like Romans 6:6, we have been justified away from sin. Righteous and new, and not sinners. God is so good!

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Let's relook at this.

Paul writes, "It is no more I who do it". What would this mean absent the new birth? How would it be "no more I who do it"? This is speaking of someone who had undergone a fundamental change in identity.

Paul then writes, "but sin that lives in me", showing what this change was. No more I, this not about something outside of Paul, IE the Law, rather, Paul himself. A new man, born of God, and that which is born of God sins not. Old things are passed away, behold, all is become new, all is of God.

In what way could someone say that as a sinner, and having been given the Law, now, it's not them that sins, instead, it is sin that lives in them. What could that mean?

Romans 8 tells us that the flesh is hostile to God, and cannot keep God's law. How does the one who is hostile to God say that its not them that sins, instead, sin that lives in them?

Much love!

Looking at the context from which you pulled that scripture 7:17, it was a Jew under the law without the rebirth. Romans 8 is freedom from indwelling sin. You have both keeping the law, and walking in the Spirit by works - our own will. And Matt has it as a learning process over time. The baptism of the Holy Spirit happens in an instant.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Looking at the context from which you pulled that scripture 7:17, it was a Jew under the law without the rebirth. Romans 8 is freedom from indwelling sin.

You are absolutely right
Ro.7. is Saul of Tarsus "who shall deliver him from that body of death? thanks be to God through Jesus Christ"
Ro.8 is the Apostle Paul.

 

[marks]

Looking at the context from which you pulled that scripture 7:17, it was a Jew under the law without the rebirth. Romans 8 is freedom from indwelling sin. You have both keeping the law, and walking in the Spirit by works - our own will. And Matt has it as a learning process over time. The baptism of the Holy Spirit happens in an instant.

Let's try this.

Can you restate to me my assertion correctly? Without rebuttal or anything, can you show me you understand the idea I'm expressing?

"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

This is not speaking of the unregenerate, else there would have been no change, no, "no more I that do it". Paul as an unregenerate, would have still been in his sins. The sinner.

That it is "no more I, but sin that lives in me", this means that sin still lives in me, that is, in my flesh, as he goes on to explain. No longer I.

If any be in Christ, he is a new creation. Everything old is gone, and all is new, and from God!

No longer I.

I am the righteous child of God, sharing His holy nature, sharing His eternal life.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Jesus be strong in me today!

And no one should assume I'm thinking we cannot have victory over sin.

My primary point here is to say we already do, and sometimes don't think we do.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Let's try this.

Can you restate to me my assertion correctly? Without rebuttal or anything, can you show me you understand the idea I'm expressing?



Much love!

It seems to me you still believe that Romans 7:17 is a born again Christian. Is that wrong? That would also mean that you still believe that a born again Christian still has indwelling sin. Is that wrong?

 

[marks]

It seems to me you still believe that Romans 7:17 is a born again Christian. Is that wrong? That would also mean that you still believe that a born again Christian still has indwelling sin. Is that wrong?

Does this mean you don't want to try to restate what I'm saying here? I've even tried to make that easy for you!

It's more like, someone might say to me, "You are saying that because Paul said, No More I, but sin that lives in me, you are saying that this means Paul was the sinner, but now he's not, and even though sin still lives in him, it's not him doing it. Is that what you are saying?" Something like that.

I'm encouragining that we become certain we understand what the other person is saying before going on to refute it.

I'm looking at a particular aspect of this particular passage. It shows me truth. And this is the truth it shows me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Looking at the context from which you pulled that scripture 7:17, it was a Jew under the law without the rebirth. Romans 8 is freedom from indwelling sin. You have both keeping the law, and walking in the Spirit by works - our own will. And Matt has it as a learning process over time. The baptism of the Holy Spirit happens in an instant.

Specifically, Romans 6 tells about freedom from sin through out baptism into Jesus, into His death and burial, to share in His resurrection.

In this, having died with Him, Paul wrote, the one who has died has been freed from sin, that is literally, justified away from sin.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Does this mean you don't want to try to restate what I'm saying here? I've even tried to make that easy for you!

It's more like, someone might say to me, "You are saying that because Paul said, No More I, but sin that lives in me, you are saying that this means Paul was the sinner, but now he's not, and even though sin still lives in him, it's not him doing it. Is that what you are saying?" Something like that.

I'm encouragining that we become certain we understand what the other person is saying before going on to refute it.

I'm looking at a particular aspect of this particular passage. It shows me truth. And this is the truth it shows me.

Much love!

So you can't verify if I understand you or misunderstand you?

 

[marks]

So you can't verify if I understand you or misunderstand you?

No, I can't. I don't know what your understanding of my view is.

I'm addressing this matter of Paul's statement,

Romans 7:17
and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,

In saying, No longer I, this means, it was, and now it's not. It was me working the evil, now it's not. He goes on, "but the sin dwelling in me."

Romans 7:19-20
19) for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise.
20) And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me.

Again, here, it was Paul that had worked the evil, and now it's not. When the evil is worked, it's not Paul doing it, instead, it is the sin that lives in him.

You've asserted that this refers to the unbeliever. I don't think that allows for what Paul says, It was him, and now it's not. How can it be that the unregenerate would stop being the one committing sin? Only by being born again. And then, it is no longer that person, they have become new. Sin resides in the flesh. Once we are born in the Spirit, we are not our flesh. Before that, the flesh, with it's fleshy mind, that was all we had.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

No, I can't. I don't know what your understanding of my view is.

I'm addressing this matter of Paul's statement,

Romans 7:17
and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,

In saying, No longer I, this means, it was, and now it's not. It was me working the evil, now it's not. He goes on, "but the sin dwelling in me."

Romans 7:19-20
19) for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise.
20) And if what I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it, but the sin that is dwelling in me.

Again, here, it was Paul that had worked the evil, and now it's not. When the evil is worked, it's not Paul doing it, instead, it is the sin that lives in him.

You've asserted that this refers to the unbeliever. I don't think that allows for what Paul says, It was him, and now it's not. How can it be that the unregenerate would stop being the one committing sin? Only by being born again. And then, it is no longer that person, they have become new. Sin resides in the flesh. Once we are born in the Spirit, we are not our flesh. Before that, the flesh, with it's fleshy mind, that was all we had.

Much love!

Maybe if you read Romans 8:2 as about "indwelling" sin you would understand what I mean by being born again. Again, this is Paul speaking if that helps.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of (indwelling) sin and death.

The born again nature does not have indwelling sin, anymore than Jesus had indwelling sin when He was alive in His ministry. That was the reason He didn't ever sin. He lived the life according to a divine nature, and what our life can be if we are born again. That is the power of grace.

Romans 7 - under the law with indwelling sin.
Romans 8 - in the Spirit without indwelling sin.

 

[marks]

Romans 7 - under the law with indwelling sin.

What did Paul mean when he said, "It is no more I"? No more I? Then who? And how? And when?

If you engage with this question . . . well, that's the OP.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

What did Paul mean when he said, "It is no more I"? No more I? Then who? And how? And when?

If you engage with this question . . . well, that's the OP.

Much love!

If you read Romans 7 and 8 in context, you will see that Romans 7 is about the Ten Commandments, even referring to coveting. The Old Covenant was the Law to guard us until Jesus came to take care of our need for the commandments in the first place. So with the mind they knew the commandments, but they had to keep them with the old nature from Adam that was sinful and was in opposition to the law. So Romans 7:17 - The mind was "I", but the flesh couldn't keep them because it was full of sin. So what your mind wants to do, you can't because the sinful desires are stronger than your mind. It is full of drives and desires that controlled us, even though we KNOW what God wants. That was the life of those under the law.

Jesus came to free our nature from the carnal lusts of the world. Jesus freed us from sin, and thus the law that showed us our sin. Those laws are no longer in opposition to us as they are now written on our hearts, our nature.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[marks]

If you read Romans 7 and 8 in context, you will see that Romans 7 is about the Ten Commandments, even referring to coveting. The Old Covenant was the Law to guard us until Jesus came to take care of our need for the commandments in the first place. So with the mind they knew the commandments, but they had to keep them with the old nature from Adam that was sinful and was in opposition to the law. So Romans 7:17 - The mind was "I", but the flesh couldn't keep them because it was full of sin. So what your mind wants to do, you can't because the sinful desires are stronger than your mind. It is full of drives and desires that controlled us, even though we KNOW what God wants. That was the life of those under the law.

Jesus came to free our nature from the carnal lusts of the world. Jesus freed us from sin, and thus the law that showed us our sin. Those laws are no longer in opposition to us as they are now written on our hearts, our nature.

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I'm wondering . . . why are you persistently posting in this thread, yet pretty much ignoring the OP?

How is it that Paul says, "It is no more I, but sin that lives in me"? Do you see where he says, No more I? This says it was him, and now it's not. How do you account for this? That he was the one doing the evil, and then he isn't the one doing the evil? What does this mean to you?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

I'm wondering . . . why are you persistently posting in this thread, yet pretty much ignoring the OP?

How is it that Paul says, "It is no more I, but sin that lives in me"? Do you see where he says, No more I? This says it was him, and now it's not. How do you account for this? That he was the one doing the evil, and then he isn't the one doing the evil? What does this mean to you?

Much love!

Isn't it the meaning of Romans 7:17 about indwelling sin you are wanting to point to? For one thing, that verse is in the section (14-23) that is pre-born again - pre-New Covenant. You seem to be thinking it is about Paul as a born again Christian, instead of as a Pharisee, because it is written in present tense, which then you believe Christians have indwelling sin and no one is born again. You have the born again state the same as the law state - all in the mind, and probably positionally. And why only positionally? Because of indwelling sin. Wrong. If you want to know what Jesus did to indwelling sin read 1 John 3:5.

Actually it is a contrast of the Old Covenant to the next chapter on the New Covenant where the Spirit freed Paul from indwelling sin, ALSO IN PRESENT TENSE. Romans 8:2. Don't let the eastern style of writing throw off your western mindset, or you will continue to make mistakes. John does it too in 1 John 1, and many westernized Christians make that same mistake, taking scripture out of context, and it has them contradicting chapter three. It is no wonder we have so many denominations without unity. No one looks at who the apostles were, and where they came from. Middle East! "When in Rome..."

Paul is telling us in Romans 7 WHY the Ten Commandments (Old Covenant) didn't work to make us righteous - indwelling sin. Now, thanks to the Holy Spirit, indwelling sin is gone for those who have been born again. That is the whole purpose of the rebirth. Jesus didn't recreate a nature that STILL has indwelling sin. He gave us the same kind of nature that He had while on earth, the kind that doesn't desire to sin. 1 John 3:9. And, I might add, with the same powers and authorities as a child of God. Jesus was the first of many brethren Romans 8:29-30. Understand? And it is not something we have to work at over time. The Spirit empowers us with His divine nature when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:2-4; Acts 2:38.