Oh Boy! Seeing So Much!

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stunnedbygrace

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You guys know marks, right?
He has driven me a bit bonkers for quite a few years in here with claims like…we are already sitting in heavenly places but we just don’t believe it.

I think I would have understood him better if he had maybe said it more like…this is there for us to grab and will be ours if we begin to believe it can be ours and that He wants it to be ours. Because I’m a human, and to me, it’s not mine until it manifests. Until it manifests, I’m working toward enough trust to grab the good thing and have it be manifest in my own life experience.

Im seeing, in such rapid fashion, all the promises and all the counter oppressions to them and lies that stop up our faith to keep us from receiving those promises so they become manifest.

Im seeing so many of those counter oppressions beside the promises and seeing them so quickly, one after another after another, that I’m sort of glitching out right now with the shock of it, but one of them is this:

those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness in their inner man will be filled. (That’s the promise.)
Heres the counter oppression and lies that is the stronghold standing opposed to the promise: oh no, we only can have a “positional” righteousness until after we die. He cannot give us true and visible and manifest righteousness while we are in this body. That verse means later, it’s not something to believe and hope for now because our flesh makes God not able to manifest.

But no! It is believing that lie rather than trusting and hoping in the promise that makes it not able to manifest.
Its “did God really say” all over again.
 

stunnedbygrace

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i totally believe we are already living in eternity having accepted Jesus as Lord and Saviour and having our sin washed away so that in God's eyes we are without blemish.
Tsk! It would be strange if I had anger in my heart at you and I could clearly see I did, but God couldn’t see that blemish/murder.
Having it covered by the Blood and forgiven is not the same thing as no blemish.
 
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Heart2Soul

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You guys know marks, right?
He has driven me a bit bonkers for quite a few years in here with claims like…we are already sitting in heavenly places but we just don’t believe it.

I think I would have understood him better if he had maybe said it more like…this is there for us to grab and will be ours if we begin to believe it can be ours and that He wants it to be ours. Because I’m a human, and to me, it’s not mine until it manifests. Until it manifests, I’m working toward enough trust to grab the good thing and have it be manifest in my own life experience.

Im seeing, in such rapid fashion, all the promises and all the counter oppressions to them and lies that stop up our faith to keep us from receiving those promises so they become manifest.

Im seeing so many of those counter oppressions beside the promises and seeing them so quickly, one after another after another, that I’m sort of glitching out right now with the shock of it, but one of them is this:

those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness in their inner man will be filled. (That’s the promise.)
Heres the counter oppression and lies that is the stronghold standing opposed to the promise: oh no, we only can have a “positional” righteousness until after we die. He cannot give us true and visible and manifest righteousness while we are in this body. That verse means later, it’s not something to believe and hope for now because our flesh makes God not able to manifest.

But no! It is believing that lie rather than trusting and hoping in the promise that makes it not able to manifest.
Its “did God really say” all over again.
God is an awesome God! Yes, He is opening the eyes of His children to see clearly.
To help us understand more clearly the revelation knowledge of His Truth.
To join believers into one mind and one accord on His single doctrine of faith.
Death and Life are in the power of the TONGUE....so speak life continually...speak His Word and declare it daily over yourself and others....when thoughts enter your mind that bring any unwanted emotion with it cast it down....put on the mind of Christ!
Glory hallelujah!
 

David H.

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those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness in their inner man will be filled. (That’s the promise.)
Heres the counter oppression and lies that is the stronghold standing opposed to the promise: oh no, we only can have a “positional” righteousness until after we die. He cannot give us true and visible and manifest righteousness while we are in this body. That verse means later, it’s not something to believe and hope for now because our flesh makes God not able to manifest.
This is a Great topic, and I feel the same way. This may be the one thing that leads to complacency in fundamentalism, the argument goes something like this; "I am made righteous by the blood of the lamb (Atonement/ Instant sanctification), I have everything I need in Christ, I am complete. etc." What it fails to acknowledge is that not only does the blood atone for sin, but also cleanses as we live a life of righteousness by the working of the Spirit in us. That we have to yield ourselves to this work in us, and doctrines like this prevent this yielding.

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. (Romans 6:13)

The way I see it is I am not perfect, But I am being made perfect, and until then, the Blood of the Lamb atones for my sin. I am not holy, but God is working in me making me holy, and the blood cleanses my unholiness until then.... the More we yield ourselves unto God, which is a process, not an instant thing, the more he can work in us. What i was five years ago pales in comparison to who I am today, as he has and continually does his work in me.

Keep standing on those promises:

  1. Standing on the promises of Christ my King,
    Through eternal ages let His praises ring,
    Glory in the highest, I will shout and sing,
    Standing on the promises of God.
    • Refrain:
      Standing, standing,
      Standing on the promises of God my Savior;
      Standing, standing,
      I’m standing on the promises of God.
  2. Standing on the promises that cannot fail,
    When the howling storms of doubt and fear assail,
    By the living Word of God I shall prevail,
    Standing on the promises of God.
  3. Standing on the promises I now can see
    Perfect, present cleansing in the blood for me;
    Standing in the liberty where Christ makes free,
    Standing on the promises of God.
  4. Standing on the promises of Christ the Lord,
    Bound to Him eternally by love’s strong cord,
    Overcoming daily with the Spirit’s sword,
    Standing on the promises of God.
  5. Standing on the promises I cannot fall,
    List’ning every moment to the Spirit’s call,
    Resting in my Savior as my all in all,
    Standing on the promises of God.
 

devin553344

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You guys know marks, right?
He has driven me a bit bonkers for quite a few years in here with claims like…we are already sitting in heavenly places but we just don’t believe it.

I think I would have understood him better if he had maybe said it more like…this is there for us to grab and will be ours if we begin to believe it can be ours and that He wants it to be ours. Because I’m a human, and to me, it’s not mine until it manifests. Until it manifests, I’m working toward enough trust to grab the good thing and have it be manifest in my own life experience.

Im seeing, in such rapid fashion, all the promises and all the counter oppressions to them and lies that stop up our faith to keep us from receiving those promises so they become manifest.

Im seeing so many of those counter oppressions beside the promises and seeing them so quickly, one after another after another, that I’m sort of glitching out right now with the shock of it, but one of them is this:

those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness in their inner man will be filled. (That’s the promise.)
Heres the counter oppression and lies that is the stronghold standing opposed to the promise: oh no, we only can have a “positional” righteousness until after we die. He cannot give us true and visible and manifest righteousness while we are in this body. That verse means later, it’s not something to believe and hope for now because our flesh makes God not able to manifest.

But no! It is believing that lie rather than trusting and hoping in the promise that makes it not able to manifest.
Its “did God really say” all over again.
One thing about the flesh and it's corruption that you have to remember is that Jesus died for us that he could send the heavenly spirit to be with our souls (body and spirit). And that often has given me moments when I feel that I am with him in a heavenly way.
 

stunnedbygrace

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One thing about the flesh and it's corruption that you have to remember is that Jesus died for us that he could send the heavenly spirit to be with our souls (body and spirit). And that often has given me moments when I feel that I am with him in a heavenly way.
Oh sure! Me too.
Ive thought many times about how it’s even possible to have this down payment when my odious flesh is still in my heart, all that arrogance and selfishness and resentment and anger at others. I think it has to do with the sword of the word being able to divide asunder soul and spirit, joint and marrow…

But there’s a time for moving on from elementary things and a time for faith grown greater so as to begin apprehending and seeing manifest those things He has for us.
 
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Pearl

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Tsk! It would be strange if I had anger in my heart at you and I could clearly see I did, but God couldn’t see that blemish/murder.
Having it covered by the Blood and forgiven is not the same thing as no blemish.

Tsk! It would be strange if I had anger in my heart at you and I could clearly see I did, but God couldn’t see that blemish/murder.
Having it covered by the Blood and forgiven is not the same thing as no blemish.
Hi, I used the word blemish instead of sin as I thought it would be understood better. I believe God has made me righteous in Christ. Justified.

Justification is an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner’s faith in Christ.

Properly understood, justification has to do with God’s declaration about the sinner, not any change within the sinner. That is, justification, per se, does not make anyone holy; it simply declares him to be not guilty before God and therefore treated as holy.
 

stunnedbygrace

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You know, I got stuck for a long time in something because I’m physically, monetarily pretty darn poor.
I kept saying, you have to just trust Him more and more that He has told the truth He will provide and then you will see it. But I kept going from bad to worse, leaner and leaner.
But I was trying to bypass the order there. It’s to seek His kingdom first and then that will be added. So I was following for hope of the fish and loaves, in an inverted order.

No matter how big of a mixed up mess you see you are, it’s no greater than the mixed up messes I get myself into. Trust me.
 
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devin553344

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Hi, I used the word blemish instead of sin as I thought it would be understood better. I believe God has made me righteous in Christ. Justified.

Justification is an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner’s faith in Christ.

Properly understood, justification has to do with God’s declaration about the sinner, not any change within the sinner. That is, justification, per se, does not make anyone holy; it simply declares him to be not guilty before God and therefore treated as holy.
I like that, it goes along with my thread and the point I was "trying" to make there Saved by Faith vs Repentance and Obeying the Commandments
 

stunnedbygrace

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Hi, I used the word blemish instead of sin as I thought it would be understood better. I believe God has made me righteous in Christ. Justified.

Justification is an act of God whereby He pronounces a sinner to be righteous because of that sinner’s faith in Christ.

Properly understood, justification has to do with God’s declaration about the sinner, not any change within the sinner. That is, justification, per se, does not make anyone holy; it simply declares him to be not guilty before God and therefore treated as holy.
I think you’re in a good place. Stay there. Be happy there.
 
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Nancy

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You guys know marks, right?
He has driven me a bit bonkers for quite a few years in here with claims like…we are already sitting in heavenly places but we just don’t believe it.

I think I would have understood him better if he had maybe said it more like…this is there for us to grab and will be ours if we begin to believe it can be ours and that He wants it to be ours. Because I’m a human, and to me, it’s not mine until it manifests. Until it manifests, I’m working toward enough trust to grab the good thing and have it be manifest in my own life experience.

Im seeing, in such rapid fashion, all the promises and all the counter oppressions to them and lies that stop up our faith to keep us from receiving those promises so they become manifest.

Im seeing so many of those counter oppressions beside the promises and seeing them so quickly, one after another after another, that I’m sort of glitching out right now with the shock of it, but one of them is this:

those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness in their inner man will be filled. (That’s the promise.)
Heres the counter oppression and lies that is the stronghold standing opposed to the promise: oh no, we only can have a “positional” righteousness until after we die. He cannot give us true and visible and manifest righteousness while we are in this body. That verse means later, it’s not something to believe and hope for now because our flesh makes God not able to manifest.

But no! It is believing that lie rather than trusting and hoping in the promise that makes it not able to manifest.
Its “did God really say” all over again.
Yes, lol, I sure do remember the back and forth between you two, lol...have been enjoying you and Marks dialog of late though.

Ephesians 2:6 is in the already happened or, is already happening position. Kind of like trust and faith in believing in things we do not see yet manifested. It's always believe first and then His promises will become a reality.

I still do not have a good grasp on this issue but, reading your post does clarify lots, thanks. I always saw being seated in heavenly places for after we die physically too.

It's like a mirror image, and we can get it all backwards until a simple post can get us to see and re-considering stuff in a different light. Iron sharpens...!

"those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness in their inner man will be filled. (That’s the promise.)"
And if we have been hungering and thirsting for true righteousness in the inner man then, we have already been filled...present and past tense. It is just the pure trust and faith that manifests it in our lives!
Think I'm going to trust in His promises and toss those lies about "positional" righteousness" under the bus.
Hmm, a new thing!

PS: Good to hear you are breaking through so many things in "rapid fashion" :vgood:
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Righteous by faith is good. It’s exceedingly good.
The problem comes along when you understand it and then try to remove holiness from the holy. The flip side of that is a problem too - that you begin understanding holiness and try to remove righteousness by faith from those righteous by faith as not a good thing or not accepted by God.
 

Nancy

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Righteous by faith is good. It’s exceedingly good.
The problem comes along when you understand it and then try to remove holiness from the holy. The flip side of that is a problem too - that you begin understanding holiness and try to remove righteousness by faith from those righteous by faith as not a good thing or not accepted by God.
Not really following, do you mean by removing holiness that if our understanding is off, we attribute that righteousness to ourselves? Does righteousness and holiness go hand in hand? Splain better please, Lucy.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Yes, lol, I sure do remember the back and forth between you two, lol...have been enjoying you and Marks dialog of late though.

Ephesians 2:6 is in the already happened or, is already happening position. Kind of like trust and faith in believing in things we do not see yet manifested. It's always believe first and then His promises will become a reality.

I still do not have a good grasp on this issue but, reading your post does clarify lots, thanks. I always saw being seated in heavenly places for after we die physically too.

It's like a mirror image, and we can get it all backwards until a simple post can get us to see and re-considering stuff in a different light. Iron sharpens...!

"those who hunger and thirst for true righteousness in their inner man will be filled. (That’s the promise.)"
And if we have been hungering and thirsting for true righteousness in the inner man then, we have already been filled...present and past tense. It is just the pure trust and faith that manifests it in our lives!
Think I'm going to trust in His promises and toss those lies about "positional" righteousness" under the bus.
Hmm, a new thing!

PS: Good to hear you are breaking through so many things in "rapid fashion" :vgood:
I don’t think it’s a good thing to throw away positional righteous from those positionally righteous as if it’s a bad thing. (Not saying you do). The lie is not that positional righteousness does not exist but that no GREATER righteousness exists.
Now, that you yourself understand it and begin to move on is good, but it seems to be a thing with us that we either only yet understand the first and so deny the second or begin to understand the second and start denying the first is good enough for God to accept.
There is both righteousness by faith AND holiness. God accepts and makes a place for both.

We are all in the first, unless a holy man somehow escaped my notice in here!
 
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Pearl

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Righteous by faith is good. It’s exceedingly good.
The problem comes along when you understand it and then try to remove holiness from the holy. The flip side of that is a problem too - that you begin understanding holiness and try to remove righteousness by faith from those righteous by faith as not a good thing or not accepted by God.
Holiness means set apart for God. It doesn't mean pious or goody-two-shoes. It is only God himself who makes us holy. In God's kingdom nobody is better than anyone else. If we are in Christ we are righteous in the sight of God. No matter what went before. I think you can only really 'rest' in God once you come to understand that and cease striving to be a better person. I have known too many Christians who beat themselves up and live in torment because they think they aren't good enough for God, even though he says they are.
 

Nancy

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I don’t think it’s a good thing to throw away positional righteous from those positionally righteous as if it’s a bad thing. (Not saying you do). The lie is not that positional righteousness does not exist but that no GREATER righteousness exists.
Now, that you yourself understand it and begin to move on is good, but it seems to be a thing with us that we either only yet understand the first and so deny the second or begin to understand the second and start denying the first is good enough for God to accept.
There is both righteousness by faith AND holiness. God accepts and makes a place for both.

We are all in the first, unless a holy man somehow escaped my notice in here!
Up until today, "positional righteousness" was a thing that was yet to happen only, not for now so no, I do not see it as a bad thing, just a new thing for myself. Yeah, seems I went right back to focusing on the latter ignoring the former belief all together, I'm insane o_O:Hanging:
"No GREATER righteousness exits" - and we are to strive for this righteousness all the time, yes?

"There is both righteousness by faith AND holiness. God accepts and makes a place for both."

Oh the duality!!!!!
 

stunnedbygrace

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Not really following, do you mean by removing holiness that if our understanding is off, we attribute that righteousness to ourselves? Does righteousness and holiness go hand in hand? Splain better please, Lucy.
I fully understand that thing of seeing it at one moment and then not seeing it the next And then bang you see it again. I go through that too. Like looking at one of those pictures that suddenly becomes another picture depending on whether you are seeing in your default position - black ink on a white page, or seeing suddenly in a way that isn’t your default, seeing it as white ink on a black page.

But no, I wasn’t meaning what you said there. I’ll try to explain.

We have a problem with understanding the differences of:
1. being said by God of us that we did the right/righteous thing by trusting and believing we are forgiven, Jesus died so we could be, and that we now have eternal life by the down payment of the Spirit.
2. Beginning to be led by that Spirit and having our faith grown into beginning to hope in some promises and begin seeing them manifest in our life.
3. Beginning to walk in the Spirit in the holiness of God.


#1 is positional righteousness
#2 is maturing and going beyond positional righteousness and into actual and manifest righteousness in our inner man.
#3 is holiness, walking IN the Spirit Rather than just being led by the Spirit.

#1. Faith
#2 Hope
#3 love, His love, manifested outward from within us to the world.
 
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