Oh well, at least Clint Eastwood understood apostle Paul

[John Zain]

Background information
• Paul was trained “in the Spirit” for 17 years in the desert regions (Galatians 1:16-2:2).
• He received his spiritual information from the risen Jesus (Galatians 1:11-12).
• Jesus called him to evangelize the Gentiles (Acts 26:17-18, Romans 15:15).

Paul’s churches
• He established all the churches in his epistles, except the one in Rome.
• He was writing to dear friends (except in Rome), whom he did not wish to offend.
• He really wanted to encourage, edify, and exhort his churches.
• He really needed to warn the believers about sinning and falling away.
• He wrote to his churches with extreme tact: not wishing to offend anyone,
asking for contributions to his ministry, and wanting to be welcome to visit them!

Paul’s warnings are somewhat hidden and need to be pointed out
His warnings are written so super-tactfully that most people just gloss over them …
because they are surrounded by blessings, edifications, promises, exhortations, etc.
This “sugar-coating” actually borders on lying about the true situation of these BACs!
We have enough space for 2 powerful examples …

Romans 8:1-14
This passage is NOT about these BACs being “in Christ”, “in the Spirit”, being saved, etc.
This passage is warning them … Walk in the Spirit, or else you will face eternal death!
The Good … (however, some of this is about where they should be, not where they are) …
being in Christ (8:1), being free from the law of sin and death (8:2), Jesus condemned sin (8:3),
being spiritually minded (8:6), being in the Spirit (8:9), God being in us (8:9,10,11), etc.
The Bad … the “good” is NOT what the passage is about.
The problem is … Being “in the Spirit” (meaning “the Spirit of God dwells in you” (8:9,11)
and “walking in the Spirit” … are two different things!
The Ugly … the warnings …
• “There is … no condemnation to those who … (walk) according to the Spirit.” (8:1)
• “the righteous requirement of the law … (walk) according to the Spirit.” (8:4)
• “For to be carnally minded is (eternal) death” (8:6)
• “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God” (8:7)
• “brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.” (8:12)
• “For if you live according to the flesh you will die” (8:12)
• “if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” (8:13)
• “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” (8:14)
• “we are children of God … joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him” (8:16-17)

Romans 6:15-23
This passage is NOT about these BACs having been set free from being slaves of sin.
This passage is warning them … Stop sinning, or else you will face eternal death!
Paul was giving them reasons why they do NOT have to continue to be slaves of sin.
The Good … (however, it is mostly optimism about what should be happening) …
being set free from sin and becoming slaves of righteousness (6:18),
being slaves of God they have their fruit to holiness and the end, everlasting life (6:22),
the gift of God (only for God’s elect, Rom 8:28-30) is eternal life in Christ Jesus (6:23).
The Bad … the “good” is NOT what the passage is about.
The problem is … Being set free and now being fully ABLE to live righteously,
and actually BEING righteous (practicing righteousness) … are two different things!
The Ugly … the warnings …
• “Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!” (6:15)
• “Do you not know that … you are that one’s slaves whom you obey …?” (6:16)
• Choose to be …
“(slaves) of sin leading to death, OR (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness” (6:16)
• “I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh …
so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness” (6:19)
• In times past, they were free … they had NO choice to make (to sin or not to sin):
“For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.” (6:20)
• And you thought this was only for unbelievers! “the wages of sin is (eternal) death” (6:23)
• John also warned that it was necessary to practice righteousness:
“… everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
“… let no one deceive you. (Only) he who practices righteousness is righteous” (1 John 3:7)

 

[Dodo_David]

• And you thought this was only for unbelievers! “the wages of sin is (eternal) death” (6:23)

evangelist-7, your above-quoted statement appears to me to be a promotion of salvation by works. I hope that it is not what it appears to be.

Here is Romans 7:15-8:2 (ESV):

"15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God,in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

8 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death."

Paul lamented about his own continuation of sinning despite the fact that he did not want the continuation. Yet, because he was in Christ Jesus, Paul was not condemned.

While we remain on this side of eternity, our flesh is going to cause us to sin even if we don't want to continue sinning. 1 John 1:7-10 (ESV) states the following:

"7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

 

[FHII]

I see this as a reboot on the Romans 6:15-23 post he did.... What I said then still stands...

 

[Dodo_David]

I disagree with the insinuation that Christians will be thrown into the lake of fire if they commit sins after they became Christians.
If that were the case, then the Apostle Paul did not make it to Heaven.

Becoming a Christian does not mean that one has stopped sinning. It means that one is aware of one's sins and that one's spirit desires not to sin. it means that one is aware of a need for Jesus as the Savior. An unsaved person has no such awareness.

 

[musterion]

evangelist-7, your above-quoted statement appears to me to be a promotion of salvation by works. I hope that it is not what it appears to be.

That's exactly what it is. If one believes Christ Himself cannot keep him safe, then the only alternative is to keep yourself saved by your "works of righteousness" and to hope that in the end they outweigh your sins.

It is not the gospel of the grace of God at all, but another gospel.

Also note that instead of doing the mature thing and admitting he defended false prophets here, he chose to ignore that discussion - which HE started - and instead comes here to once again crank up his defense of a false gospel of works.

I suspect he's a troll, to tell you the truth. He's clearly not interested in true conversation, just starting trouble and shipwrecking the faith of others. When he's pinned down he runs off and starts trouble elsewhere.

 

[FHII]

I'm not sure he's a troll, musterion.... At least not what I think the definition of a troll is. But yes, He does seem to hide from the gospel of grace and I've brought it up in conversation with him, which I don't recall he answered. Like I said, he seems to be pushing the reset or reboot button on this. He didn't convince anyone with his previous attempts and so now he's trying to get Clint Eastwood to help him.

 

[HammerStone]

Ad hominem posts are not appropriate for this community. Please stick to debating and discussing the arguments, not those making the arguments. Thanks.

 

[John Zain]

Still presevering while a-lookin' for someone who
understands what Paul was saying in these 2 passages
to the strangers in the church(es) in Rome.

I'm only 72 ... so I can probably persevere for a few more years!

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Still presevering while a-lookin' for someone who
understands what Paul was saying in these 2 passages
to the strangers in the church(es) in Rome.

I'm only 72 ... so I can probably persevere for a few more years!

Perhaps you can clear up and summarize what your view of the gospel is. The "gospel of works" accusation is prolific, but rarely true. I've yet to meet anyone preaching works based salvation and a complete denial of grace. Perhaps you can provide more extrapolation for us.

 

[John Zain]

Perhaps you can clear up and summarize what your view of the gospel is.
The "gospel of works" accusation is prolific, but rarely true.
I've yet to meet anyone preaching works based salvation and a complete denial of grace.
Perhaps you can provide more extrapolation for us.

Yes, your request of curiosity is quite interesting
because just today I was thinking of putting together
my new current view of things in a short summary.

I believe it does combine most of the conflicting doctrines
into one reasonable explanation of what the NT teaches.
Forthcoming in a day or two.

 

[musterion]

Read Galatians for a start.