Old Man Crucified; But Not Dead

[Netchaplain]

When one chooses to follow the Father’s drawing to Christ (John 6:44) and receives Him (John 1:12; Rev 3:20), what happens to the “old man” or, sin nature? Scripture declares, “That our old man is crucified with Him” (Rom 6:6) and we ourselves are also crucified (Gal 2:20). How the believer understands this issue will determine the understanding of Scriptural doctrine which relates to the condition of one born-again.

The term “crucified” used in the physical sense is identical to its use in the spiritual sense in that its purpose is to portray the helplessness of one concerning the inability to operate as before. The idea that one being physically crucified, which can last for days, is analogous to the ongoing existence of the sinful nature (old man) within the believer. It being crucified (still on the Cross) is not dead, just powerless to control as before. The difference between us being crucified and our sinful nature being crucified is that the sinful nature is still on the Cross, but we left the Cross with Him.

The Christian is, “dead to sin”, or in other words—dead to sin’s control (Rom 6:2, 11), but nowhere is it said that the indwelling (Rom 7:17, 20) sin nature is dead to the saint; but rather it continues to impose on the believer its influence, but to no authoritative avail:

“Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof”; “For sin shall not have dominion over you” (Rom 6:12, 14); “For the flesh (sinful nature or old man) lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would” (Gal 5:17).

 

[Axehead]

The power of sin has been broken in the Believer's life by the death of Christ. Wouldn't you agree?

Rom_6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Rom_6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Only through Jesus Christ, sin no longer has dominion over the one that is born of the Spirit.

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Rom_6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom_6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

So, "old man" and "new man" are both still alive?

Axehead

 

[Netchaplain]

The power of sin has been broken in the Believer's life by the death of Christ. Wouldn't you agree?

Rom_6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Rom_6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Only through Jesus Christ, sin no longer has dominion over the one that is born of the Spirit.

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.


Rom_6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom_6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

So, "old man" and "new man" are both still alive?

Axehead

Hi Axhead - You may already know or agree, or not, that the "flesh" in Galatians 5:17 is in direct reference to our sin nature (old man alive but restrained in constant crucifixtion). The Holy Spirit constantly works against this sin nature and it works against the Holy Spirit. Only those born-again have this care of the Spirit in their lives; otherwise, "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His" (Rom 8:9).

Galatians 5:17 evinces that those who are regenerate possess both natures, because the Spirit is never absent from the "new man" within the believer, which He instills upon His arrival within us (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10); "Strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man" (Eph 3:16).

"Freed from sin" never designs the intention in reference to the absence of the source of sin! Though its presence remains in the Christian, he is freed from the guilt and rein of the sin nature; otherwise the Spirit would not be at constant odds with it.

I also believe it would be precarious not to apply 1 John 1:8 to everyone at all times, that "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

"So, "old man" and "new man" are both still alive?"-- This is the dichotomy Paul wrote concerning Romans 7, esp. v 25. The majority of Bible commentators agree that Romans 7 is Paul's description of himself in a regenerate state, in that Paul as his new "I" is no longer doing the wrong, because it is now his old "I" which is still in him that does the wrong (Rom 7:17, 20).

I believe this also collates with, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" 1 John 3:9). Paul in his new "I" is the "new man" or, new nature. Here in 1 John, the one born again is not the "seed", but himself, because the "seed" needs not re-birth, being from God; and is not an entity but a nature of an Entity (nature of Christ--less the divinity of course--Col 3:10) instilled in the believer.

John is stating that we "cannot sin" (3:9) in our new nature and that's why Paul states it's the old nature sinning, not him as his new man. This isn't to transfer blame, but to indicate the believer's condition, which is a continuous attitude and practice of confession and repentance, which derives from "the goodness of God" (Rom 2:4).

Wishing You His Best

 

[Axehead]

Dear brother Bob,

I firmly believe the Scriptures teach that the "old man" and the "flesh" are quite different.

From the cross Jesus exclaimed, “It is finished!” (John 19:30). That was a cry of victory on behalf of our Lord. Jesus was declaring that redemption was accomplished by the necessary offering of His body on the cross and His subsequent death. He voluntarily submitted to the “power of death” (Heb. 2:14) as our substitution and paid the price (I Cor. 6:20; 7:23) of the death consequences of sin (Gen. 2:17).

Was that all?

And by His death and what I believe the Bible teaches that He meant by "It is finished" is that He was setting in motion the full restoration of man to the full intent of what God wants for man.

It was impossible for Him to be held by death's power, “because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.” (Acts 2:24), Peter explained, and God raised Him up in resurrection victory over death. By His resurrection, the One Who is “resurrection and life” (John 11:25) made His risen life available to mankind in regeneration (I Peter 1:3).

Let me say that again:
His resurrection life is available to man NOW, through the operation of the Holy Spirit in regeneration.

When we receive the life of the risen Lord Jesus in regeneration it is not the completion of the work of Christ in the Christian. We don't stop at Salvation because He does not stop there. The only thing that causes people to stop at salvation are the doctrines of men. Jesus Christ seeks to govern the lives of Christians and continue His saving work in them (sanctification). The walk of holiness.

His “saving death” was totally sufficient for our redemption, but by His “saving life” (Rom. 5:10) He continues to save Christians from the patterns of selfishness and sin that remain in the desires of their soul as residue from their previous life of alienation with God as "children of wrath". (Eph 2:3)

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

All of Jesus Christ’s work in our Christian experience, (justification, regeneration, sanctification, or glorification), is wrapped up in His declaration of victory on the Cross of His “finished work.”


I am of the opinion that many think that "Salvation" is some kind of "eternal package" that they receive by reciting some "magic" words and then this eternal life is placed on "deposit" for them in some kind of heavenly bank for their future enjoyment. After mentally ascenting to creeds they just have to grit their teeth and get through this life believing in newly taught and learned principles and belief systems completely ignorant or oblivious of any idea of "partaking of the divine nature" (2 Pet 1:4). But, Jesus Christ is now and forever the “eternal life” (John 11:25; 14:6; I John 5:12,13) of God, and He wants to function in us in a living and vital way and continue to perform His "life saving" and "restorative" work in us resulting in our overcoming sin.

Hoping you agree so far and I will continue this later. And if you don't agree, that's ok. Let's talk about it and try to work through it.

Axehead


Let's talk about what His life in us is capable of and what the difference between the "old man" and the "flesh", is.

 

[Netchaplain]

Hi Ax - The inward work of the Spirit in the believer through regeneration (re-birth) effects in us freedom from the sin nature's control, but not from its presence which still being continually restrained by His Cross (Rom 6:6); which has negligible influence on the believer because it can no longer control and dominate (Rom 6:12, 14).

Though Christians sin, it's never as a servant who willingly obeys; but as a slave who unwillingly obeys. Of course this cannot apply to the false belief that the Christian no longer has to sin and can be sinless. Due to the indwelling sinful nature, nobody can cease from sinning completely and therefore will sin.

The difference in sinning between the regenerate and unregenerate is that the latter serves sin and the former does not serve sin. To serve sin is to willingly obey it, hence the term servant, which this is the situation for the unsaved.

The believer's sins are not ultimately as a servant, but rather as a slave who is unwillingly or has to be "sold" to commit sin, as described by Paul: "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin" (Rom 7:14). "Sold" intends the meaning of forcing one to obey against his will; in others words, the unbeliever sins willfully and the believer unwillfully:

"For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries" (Heb 10:26, 27).

The sin nature is not restrained by crucifixion in the unbeliever and thus, it still has dominion over him.

 

[ScottAU]

Actually the "Old Man Being Crucified" (Rom 6:6) is a reference to the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires (Gal 5:24).

It is the passions and desires of the flesh which entice people into sin (Jam 1:14-15) but when we partake in Christ's sufferings (1Pet 4:1) by dying with Him in repentance (Rom 6:4) we no longer live according to the lusts of the flesh (1Pet 4:2). This is what being "dead to sin" (Rom 6:11) means and is why we don't let sin reign in our mortal bodies by submitting our bodies to unrighteousness (Rom 6:12-13).

Paul is very clear in teaching that while grace abounded when sin abounded (Rom 5:20) we are not to continue in sin (Rom 6:1-2) for if we do it is evidence that we are still slaves to sin (Rom 6:16) and thus have not obeyed from the heart (Rom 6:17).

Jesus clearly taught that if we sin we are slaves to sin (Joh 8:34) but he came to set us free indeed (Joh 8:36).

Many misunderstand the "sin nature" of Eph 2:3 in that it is the natural disposition to sin that grows from a habitual lifestyle of sinning. Basically our brains become hardwired to sin and our consciences are also seared more and more over time. It is not a state one is born in.

Likewise we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust in order to be partakers in the divine nature (2Pet 1:3-4). It is through the renewing of the mind (Rom 12:2) by which we become addicted to God (1Cor 16:15). It is by walking in the Spirit and Power of God whereby our mortal bodies are quickened (Rom 8:11) and thus through the Spirit we mortify the deeds of the body being led by the Spirit as children of God (Rom 8:13-14).

When we simply accept what the Bible plainly teaches it all makes a lot more sense and we don't have to deal with contradictions like "the flesh being crucified and not being crucified" or "serving sin but not serving sin."

 

[Netchaplain]

ScottAU, on 04 Mar 2013 - 17:31, said:
Actually the "Old Man Being Crucified" (Rom 6:6) is a reference to the crucifixion of the flesh with the passions and desires (Gal 5:24).

It is the passions and desires of the flesh which entice people into sin (Jam 1:14-15) but when we partake in Christ's sufferings (1Pet 4:1) by dying with Him in repentance (Rom 6:4) we no longer live according to the lusts of the flesh (1Pet 4:2). This is what being "dead to sin" (Rom 6:11) means and is why we don't let sin reign in our mortal bodies by submitting our bodies to unrighteousness (Rom 6:12-13).

Paul is very clear in teaching that while grace abounded when sin abounded (Rom 5:20) we are not to continue in sin (Rom 6:1-2) for if we do it is evidence that we are still slaves to sin (Rom 6:16) and thus have not obeyed from the heart (Rom 6:17).

Jesus clearly taught that if we sin we are slaves to sin (Joh 8:34) but he came to set us free indeed (Joh 8:36).

Many misunderstand the "sin nature" of Eph 2:3 in that it is the natural disposition to sin that grows from a habitual lifestyle of sinning. Basically our brains become hardwired to sin and our consciences are also seared more and more over time. It is not a state one is born in.

Likewise we escape the corruption that is in the world through lust in order to be partakers in the divine nature (2Pet 1:3-4). It is through the renewing of the mind (Rom 12:2) by which we become addicted to God (1Cor 16:15). It is by walking in the Spirit and Power of God whereby our mortal bodies are quickened (Rom 8:11) and thus through the Spirit we mortify the deeds of the body being led by the Spirit as children of God (Rom 8:13-14).

When we simply accept what the Bible plainly teaches it all makes a lot more sense and we don't have to deal with contradictions like "the flesh being crucified and not being crucified" or "serving sin but not serving sin."

Hi Scott - I'm uncertain what you determine to be the meaning of "the flesh" but I understand it in its context as the sinful nature, wherein dwells "the affections and lusts" (passions and desires).

Are you understanding "the flesh" to be the sinful nature or the physical body?

 

[ScottAU]

Hi Scott - I'm uncertain what you determine to be the meaning of "the flesh" but I understand it in its context as the sinful nature, wherein dwells "the affections and lusts" (passions and desires).

Are you understanding "the flesh" to be the sinful nature or the physical body?

There is no such thing as "the sinful nature."

The word in the Greek that they translate as "the sinful nature" in the NIV is Sarx. Sarx simply means "flesh" ie. the meat on the bones. When Paul uses the term flesh he is simply referring to the natural body with its natural passions and desires.

The term "sarx" was translated as "the sinful nature" due to the translators reading their doctrine of "natural sin" into the text (an ancient Augustinian doctrine whereby concupiscence is the sin nature).

We are all born into flesh bodies subject to the natural passions and desires. As we grow older our reasoning capacity develops and we are able to exercise the free agency of our wills as to whether to live according to these desires in disobedience to God or hold them subject to the will of God (Gen 4:7). Sin is only imputed when we choose (Rom 5:13) to suppress the measure of light God has given us in order to satisfy the carnal appetite, this is being carnally minded and it is enmity with God (Rom 8:7).

We can become naturally inclined to sin through long practiced habit (Eph 2:3), likewise we can become naturally inclined to do what is right (Rom 2:14). Without the light of God (Joh 1:9) we would be no better than brute beasts (2Pet 2:12) subject to the natural instincts which is why the rejection of God is deadly for the soul.

Jesus taught that we must be born from above in order to enter the kingdom. God raises those up who forsake their rebellion (in repentance) and yield to Him from the heart.

 

[Netchaplain]

There is no such thing as "the sinful nature."

The word in the Greek that they translate as "the sinful nature" in the NIV is Sarx. Sarx simply means "flesh" ie. the meat on the bones. When Paul uses the term flesh he is simply referring to the natural body with its natural passions and desires.

The term "sarx" was translated as "the sinful nature" due to the translators reading their doctrine of "natural sin" into the text (an ancient Augustinian doctrine whereby concupiscence is the sin nature).

We are all born into flesh bodies subject to the natural passions and desires. As we grow older our reasoning capacity develops and we are able to exercise the free agency of our wills as to whether to live according to these desires in disobedience to God or hold them subject to the will of God (Gen 4:7). Sin is only imputed when we choose (Rom 5:13) to suppress the measure of light God has given us in order to satisfy the carnal appetite, this is being carnally minded and it is enmity with God (Rom 8:7).

We can become naturally inclined to sin through long practiced habit (Eph 2:3), likewise we can become naturally inclined to do what is right (Rom 2:14). Without the light of God (Joh 1:9) we would be no better than brute beasts (2Pet 2:12) subject to the natural instincts which is why the rejection of God is deadly for the soul.

Jesus taught that we must be born from above in order to enter the kingdom. God raises those up who forsake their rebellion (in repentance) and yield to Him from the heart.

Hi Scott - Greek words are probably the most trans-linguistic in that most of them contain multiple meanings beyond most languages. As you may know, this adds significance to the careful use and understanding of the context used, as used in the passage of Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh."

As you've correctly indicated that "flesh" is 'sarx' (Strong's, G4561) which can reference part of the physical body, but in the above context it is in reference to the original nature of the human spirit, as indicated in Strong's fourth definition: "the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God."

Here is one of the numerous scriptural-support passages concerning the concept of the continued indwelling sin nature of the believer, which is probably the most clear: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners . . . " (Rom 5:19). This passage confirms that Adam was the progenitor (Adamic nature) of mankind's original nature.

Though it stands to reason that since God had foreknowledge of this eventual condition of man, it is not unreasonable to assume He chose to use it in His plan of redemption; otherwise He would have chosen a different way.

 

[ScottAU]

Hi Scott - Greek words are probably the most trans-linguistic in that most of them contain multiple meanings beyond most languages. As you may know, this adds significance to the careful use and understanding of the context used, as used in the passage of Galatians 5:17, "For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh."

As you've correctly indicated that "flesh" is 'sarx' (Strong's, G4561) which can reference part of the physical body, but in the above context it is in reference to the original nature of the human spirit, as indicated in Strong's fourth definition: "the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God."

Here is one of the numerous scriptural-support passages concerning the concept of the continued indwelling sin nature of the believer, which is probably the most clear: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners . . . " (Rom 5:19). This passage confirms that Adam was the progenitor (Adamic nature) of mankind's original nature.

Though it stands to reason that since God had foreknowledge of this eventual condition of man, it is not unreasonable to assume He chose to use it in His plan of redemption; otherwise He would have chosen a different way.

The flesh left to itself is simply carnal therefore the definition in Strong's is absolutely correct. A human being without the guidance of the Creator is but a beast of instinct.

Yet God has made us above the animals by making us in His own image by which we have the ability to reason and He has also given all men the light of conscience. Adam was created in this fashion and so are we.

Jesus was incarnated in the flesh and thus shared in all of the frailties of the human condition. The Bible even teaches that He was tempted in "all points" as we are yet was without sin. Jesus walked in the Spirit His entire life and thus kept His carnal nature subject to the Spirit always.

Adam's sin did not effect the basic constitution of his descendents, there was no "sin nature" which sprang into being. His descendents were all born subject to physical death due, like Adam, being denied access to the tree of life (Gen 3:22-23). Adam's descendents are also born subject to the curse (Gen 3:14-19).

God had warned Adam that the day that he would transgress would be the day he would surely die. Adam died to God that day. The spiritual fellowship and communion that he had previously had with the Creator was broken the moment he rebelled. It is no different for any human being today.

Paul described this process when he was defending the law in Romans 7.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Sin took occasion by the commandment given to Adam and by that commandment Adam died.

Sin is always rooted in the free exercise of the will and due to this we are fully responsible for it. While it is true that sin leads to bondage (addiction) such bondage is always resultant of the choices made.



Romans 5:19 is clearly speaking of example, Adam got the ball rolling so to speak. Sin is moral not some sort of disease which can be passed on to others. Likewise righteousness is also moral and thus cannot be passed on to others.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Many were made sinners by following in the footsteps of Adam. Many shall be made righteous by following in the footsteps of Christ.

The wages of sin is death thus when one yields to temptation and sins like Adam then death is wrought (read Rom 5:12 "for death passed onto all men for all sinned.") Yet God has given us the gift of life through Jesus Christ which is accessed via abiding in Him.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The first Adam led mankind towards the natural and thus death, the second Adam leads mankind to the Spiritual and thus life.

1Co_15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Act_26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[Netchaplain]

The flesh left to itself is simply carnal therefore the definition in Strong's is absolutely correct. A human being without the guidance of the Creator is but a beast of instinct.

Jesus was incarnated in the flesh and thus shared in all of the frailties of the human condition. The Bible even teaches that He was tempted in "all points" as we are yet was without sin.

I just wanted to reply that I believe man has a nature, but animals do not, because they have instinct.

I also wanted to indicate that I believe the "frailties of the human condition" of Christ did not include a sin nature--"yet without sin," meaning His human nature was as His divine nature.

Thanks for the correspondence!

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Axehead]

The flesh left to itself is simply carnal therefore the definition in Strong's is absolutely correct. A human being without the guidance of the Creator is but a beast of instinct.

Great point, Scott! I am glad you brought carnality into the discussion.

We do not have an "old man" and a "new man" living in us. We do not have schizophrenic personalities, now.

I look forward to dealing with that, soon.

The rest of your comments were very good, too.

God's blessings to everyone's family.

:)

Well, I was the first one to get confused by all these similar threads. I posted here and it answers many of the questions in this thread.

 

[Netchaplain]

Depending on the context, the word "flesh" has two meanings: the physical body and the spiritual nature housed by the body. It's the spirit wherein the soul dwells and renders the spirit evil, by decision of the soul. The body which is just an object or a thing cannot be evil, for "All things indeed are pure" (Rom 14:20).

The body is just a thing which performs the dictates of our spirit. Like a pen, it has no spirit nor a soul for making decisions but is used for performing what the hand directs. The accountability for evil is attributed to the spirit. The body is just a recipient of the decisions of the spirit and is no more evil than a pen.