One of the Best Explanations I've seen on Satan's sin.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,224
5,318
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, they are out to spin God's Word according to what preachers have told them.

I am guessing that is what you are doing. The scriptures identify who the prophets are talking about.....evil yes....Satan no. There are times I have described people as Satan, but that does not mean they are actually Satan.

That's an unnecessary insult. You, correct me on the KJV translators swapping pascha in the manuscripts for Easter which isn't in the Greek manuscripts? You're being silly.

LOL pascha nor pescha are Greek words. You might as well quit while you are not to far behind. Now if you want to discuss it, go look it up and come back with the facts.
 
Last edited:

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am guessing that is what you are doing. The scriptures identify who the prophets are talking about.....evil yes....Satan no. There are time I describe people as Satan, but that does not mean they are actually Satan.
Well said.

I have been in this debate before, and doubt I have convinced anyone of the truth. But then again, I haven't seen anyone able to give a reasonable answer to my questions.

Neither "Lucifer" or the Prince of Tyre are Satan. They were both called "men" (as in mortal beings) whose physical death was described. If you want to say it was a metaphor, that's fine. I would have a harder time rebutting that. I said a harder time... But not an impossible task!

Lucifer was most likely Nebuchadnezzar and the King of Tyre was literally a king of that small island and the land known as Lebanon. Its been years since I studied this, but I seem to remember that it was Nebuchadnezzar who actually laid siege to Tyre and defeated the king of Tyre. So you have Satan casting out Satan, which Jesus said doesn't happen.

Satan is not Lucifer nor is the price/King of Tyre. I like Graihunter's statement that it is talking about evil, but not Satan. It is an impossible task to convince the world of this, but if you are interested in hearing what I know (not under the guise of a debate) I will further discuss it.
 

Ziggy

Well-Known Member
Oct 19, 2020
10,184
9,749
113
59
Maine, USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Disobedience.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Was it the spirit of disobedience that was working in Adam for him to sin?
What is the course of this world, and the prince of the power of the air?
Was this spirit always in the air from the beginning?
How did it enter Adam, prior to being disobedient?
It led him to be disobedient..
Eve "listened" to the snake, the prince of the power of the air, and led them into disobedience.

When did Satan originally recieve the title prince of the power of the air?

fowls of the air...
Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

the way side:

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Jhn 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Jhn 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

just thinking..
Hugs
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,229
2,325
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I've never heard this from anyone else, but I've concluded I think Satan's fall was envy, like you've described. That when he realized that the angels were actually created to serve these little mud people, NO! I will! Not them! ME!!! is how I take it.
Where do you get that the angels were to serve mankind? I see no angel even hinting at that.
They serve their God in whatever capacity they have been assigned…..not us.

When the angel appeared to John to give him the Revelation, John says…
“At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! I am only a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing concerning Jesus. Worship God! For the witness concerning Jesus is what inspires prophecy.” (Revelation 19:10)

This clearly shows that the angels do not see themselves as servants of mankind, but equal in their service to God. They serve God in a heavenly capacity using their God-given abilities and we serve Him on this earth with our God-given abilities too. There is no rivalry….
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,224
5,318
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well said.

I have been in this debate before, and doubt I have convinced anyone of the truth. But then again, I haven't seen anyone able to give a reasonable answer to my questions.

Neither "Lucifer" or the Prince of Tyre are Satan. They were both called "men" (as in mortal beings) whose physical death was described. If you want to say it was a metaphor, that's fine. I would have a harder time rebutting that. I said a harder time... But not an impossible task!

Lucifer was most likely Nebuchadnezzar and the King of Tyre was literally a king of that small island and the land known as Lebanon. Its been years since I studied this, but I seem to remember that it was Nebuchadnezzar who actually laid siege to Tyre and defeated the king of Tyre. So you have Satan casting out Satan, which Jesus said doesn't happen.

Satan is not Lucifer nor is the price/King of Tyre. I like Graihunter's statement that it is talking about evil, but not Satan. It is an impossible task to convince the world of this, but if you are interested in hearing what I know (not under the guise of a debate) I will further discuss it.

As much as we like to say that the Bible is the inspired Word of God....it is more true to say that the original scriptures are the inspired Word of God. On anything in question it is better to reference the texts that we have available. As it is you can buy books that have the oldest texts available....some photo copies.....Of course there is no such thing as "original" texts no more....but we can go back pretty far.

Now Lucifer is an easy one.....sounds mean, sounds sinister, and evil too .....sounds male.... But actually it is female....Latin for the word Venus. The goddess or the planet.... Being that the actual scripture was talking of the dawn of the morning....St. Jerome, while he was doing the translation from Greek to Latin inserted the word to replace dawn of the morning. Translators did that on occasion on favorite topics. And it is a concern....I believe something very strongly so I should change the scriptures! They changed the description of the Trinity because of that.

Christians do not.....did not....understand why Satan was not defined as a devil in the Old Testament, so they put him there. So when the King James Version came out they pulled the Latin word out of the Vulgate and put it into the English translation. Voila! They had another name for Satan and it was in the Old Testament! Yeppie! They did the same thing to the Magi, because they did not like the word. Magi mean sorcerer or witch and they could not understand why witches would have and interest in Christ so they changed it to wise men....tradition into three kings. Oh three kings of Orient are! If the Magi were from the east and saw the star in the east and traveled east, they would be going the wrong direction. And changed the treasure that the Magi gave them, from treasure, to trinkets. And the Bible does not give a number to how many Magi were present of if they were men and or women.
 
Last edited:

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,229
2,325
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Hebrews. They are ministering spirits who minister to those inheriting salvation.
Yes, "ministering" which is "leitourgikos" in this verse, and which is used only once in the Greek scriptures to describe the service rendered by the angels to mankind. It is not 'servitude' but a duty carried out under God's instruction. The angels are as interested in the salvation of their earthly "brother" humans as our Creator is...and eager to help them on the difficult road to salvation.
The angels are not inflicted with inherited sin like we are, so their sin is one of deliberate and premeditated choice.....ours is often losing a battle against our sinful inclinations. This is why we need Jesus sacrifice and they have no way to redeem themselves. The "lake of fire" awaits them....that's it for them because God has no basis on which to forgive them.

The "ministering" that means service to one another is "diakoneō" used in 1 Peter 4:10 which is rendering service to others, helping them in whatever ways are necessary. So in any case, it gives us the impression that we have helpers in our difficult trek on the cramped and narrow road to life...God's spirit...the angels...and each other. God sees the inner person and draws that individual to himself, (John 6:44; 65) revealing his true identity and through Jesus' teachings, showing us the kind of worship that is acceptable to him in a world full of "weeds".

Who are the weeds? And how can we identify them? What are your thoughts?
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Truman

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,497
21,646
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It is not 'servitude' but a duty carried out under God's instruction.
Well of course!

:)

Were you thinking I meant we rule over the angels?

Of course, Paul says that we will judge the angels, but we aren't given more information on that. And that's not what I had in mind.

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,497
21,646
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God already had a large “family” of spirit beings in heaven long before material creation took place. We know this from the book of Job when God was asking him about where he was when creation was taking place and said that “all the sons of God were shouting in applause” when they saw the finished product. (Job 38:4-7) They were spectators to this amazing series of events.

Job 38:4-8 KJV
4) Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5) Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6) Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8) Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

Psalms 104:1-7 KJV
1) Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2) Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

Genesis 1:3 KJV
3) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Genesis 1:7 KJV
7) And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.


3) Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4) Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

5) Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6) Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7) At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.

Genesis 1:9 KJV
9) And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

There's nothing here that gives a specific order to the creation of angels, however, from what I've found, this is the only indication in the Bible of when they were created.

From the above, it seems to me that God created the heaven and the earth, created light, and stretched out the heaven. Then He created the angels, then divided the land from the water, laying the foundations of the earth as the angels shouted for joy.

Interestingly, the "morning stars" also sing. I find that a most very interesting statement! Highly provocative.

Much love!
 

Desire Of All Nations

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2021
748
408
63
Troy
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That commentary has the facts all wrong, and a close examination shows why.

For starters, the original Hebrew has Lucifer saying he will be the Most High God, not just be His equal. The basis for Lucifer's rebellion was about his desire to replace the Most High as Ruler of the universe, not knowing God was going to create humans:

By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within(Lucifer grew more resentful of God's authority by deceiving himself and other angels into believing God was a tyrant and that he could do a better job of being God), and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones. Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you." - Eze. 28:16-17

Secondly, this commentary overlooks a critical passage in Jude and Eze. 28:14 that teaches that Lucifer and the angels that were put in his charge were taught to administer God's government in this world long before humans were ever made:

“You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones." - Eze. 28:14

"And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;" - Jude 6

It is between the events of Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2 that God decided to create a race of beings that could possess His character so they could do what the angels failed to do, and that's administer His government throughout the universe without any chance of rebelling against Him. That's why the Bible consistently teaches that God's people are supposed to strive towards moral perfection in the OT and the NT. Commentaries like this one reflects Orthodox Christianity's inability to recognize the significance of the Law in the grand scheme of things and why it is not disassociated from the gospel Christ proclaimed like its adherents assume.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,694
2,521
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am guessing that is what you are doing. The scriptures identify who the prophets are talking about.....evil yes....Satan no. There are times I have described people as Satan, but that does not mean they are actually Satan.



LOL pascha nor pescha are Greek words. You might as well quit while you are not to far behind. Now if you want to discuss it, go look it up and come back with the facts.

It's actually of Aramaic origin, and pascha (πάσχα, τό) is the TRANSLITERATED to Greek version FROM the Aramaic...

NT:3957
<START GREEK>pa/sxa
<END GREEK> pascha (pas'-khah); of Aramaic origin [compare OT:6453]; the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it):

KJV - Easter, Passover.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So much for your smart elecky scholarship.
 

Pythagorean12

Active Member
Oct 8, 2021
481
218
43
Laurel
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Odd isn't it? How one of God's angels, a beautiful exalted angel, can sin in Heaven. The abode those humans who were saved from their sins will go after death.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
11,224
5,318
113
66
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's actually of Aramaic origin, and pascha (πάσχα, τό) is the TRANSLITERATED to Greek version FROM the Aramaic...

NT:3957
<START GREEK>pa/sxa
<END GREEK> pascha (pas'-khah); of Aramaic origin [compare OT:6453]; the Passover (the meal, the day, the festival or the special sacrifices connected with it):

KJV - Easter, Passover.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So much for your smart elecky scholarship.

Well you are closer. Keep going.
Davey you got to understand I am going to correct people when they are wrong.
Friend do not let friend drive drunk....Well I do not let friends be misinformed.
The only time I am really rude is when I am face to face with evil....
Would it help if you pictured me as a laughing clown with a Jack Daniel bottle in my hand. Consider there is a bit of humor in all I say....it maybe dry humor or a little weird....but I am usually chuckling.

When you do research you have to look at it like an apple....the skin is the popular belief which many times is wrong.
You are looking for the core.

Over the years Christianity has gathered a lot of misinformation. Very early on I realized that Christianity is like that giant ball of twine that Ripley's believe it or not made famous. It has set out in the weather for years and untangling it is slow tedious process.

Passover and Easter is based on the lunar phases....go find that formula for setting the dates for Passover and Easter and you will learn a lot along the way.
 

Pythagorean12

Active Member
Oct 8, 2021
481
218
43
Laurel
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Odd isn't it? How one of God's angels, a beautiful exalted angel, can sin in Heaven. The abode where we will go as people saved from our sins.
Well you are closer. Keep going.
Davey you got to understand I am going to correct people when they are wrong.
Friend do not let friend drive drunk....Well I do not let friends be misinformed.
The only time I am really rude is when I am face to face with evil....
Would it help if you pictured me as a laughing clown with a Jack Daniel bottle in my hand. Consider there is a bit of humor in all I say....it maybe dry humor or a little weird....but I am usually chuckling.

When you do research you have to look at it like an apple....the skin is the popular belief which many times is wrong.
You are looking for the core.

Over the years Christianity has gathered a lot of misinformation. Very early on I realized that Christianity is like that giant ball of twine that Ripley's believe it or not made famous. It has set out in the weather for years and untangling it is slow tedious process.

Passover and Easter is based on the lunar phases....go find that formula for setting the dates for Passover and Easter and you will learn a lot along the way.
Um, yeah. Jack Daniels? Whatever.

Easter has nothing to do with Christ.
Easter is actually a redressing of the pagan spring equinox and the celebration of the Anglo-Saxon goddess Eostre.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,229
2,325
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Were you thinking I meant we rule over the angels?
No, not ruling over them, just them becoming our servants. They serve God by ministering to us in our assignment here on this earth where satan has been given dominion. (Luke 4:5-7) Like God, they want us to succeed on this cramped and narrow road we are travelling. The faithful angels hate satan for what he and his hordes have done, and are still doing to us down here. They have been used by God throughout the scriptures to make the road we travel, more bearable. (1 Corinthians 10:13) They too look forward to the time when satan and his demons will be put out of existence forever. There was “joy in heaven” when they were evicted, but because that meant woe for the earth, the angels are present and watchful, though not interfering in our personal choices. (Revelation 12:7-12)

Of course, Paul says that we will judge the angels, but we aren't given more information on that. And that's not what I had in mind.
Who is “we”? Only the elect are chosen by God to serve in the heavenly Kingdom. These will judge angels and be granted immortal life in heaven.....but that was not God’s first purpose for mankind.

He created us for the earth, and the earth for all his creatures. We were to be the permanent caretakers of this beautiful, totally self-contained and self-sustaining ‘spaceship’....a jewel in our solar system.

Have you ever entertained the idea of what our lives would have been like if Adam and his wife had rejected the devil’s temptations like Jesus did? Would they have become sinners? Would death have ever come to them? Would they have had access to “the tree of life” and “lived forever” here on the earth as God first intended? (Genesis 3:22-24)
Did God’s purpose dissolve because of what they did? How could it? (Isaiah 55:11)

There's nothing here that gives a specific order to the creation of angels, however, from what I've found, this is the only indication in the Bible of when they were created.
According to Colossians 1:15-17, God’s firstborn brought all things into existence, including the things in heaven and the material universe. So the heavenly realm is not a place that humans can see or gain entry into....it is a realm where immaterial beings inhabit, and the Bible indicates that it existed first.

From the above, it seems to me that God created the heaven and the earth, created light, and stretched out the heaven. Then He created the angels, then divided the land from the water, laying the foundations of the earth as the angels shouted for joy.
Are you aware that there are 3 different “heavens” spoken about by the Bible writers that humans can understand?

1) There is the heavens where God resides with his spirit family. It is not a place we can access because of being part of God’s material creation.
1 Corinthians 15:50 tells us that “flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom”, so this is why those invited to rule with Christ in heaven must be “born again” as spirit creatures in order to exist in the realm where God himself resides. It is an actual “rebirth” as a different creature...a bit like a metamorphosis......from human to spirit being.

2) There is the material heavens where countless billions of stars, galaxies and planets extend beyond our imagination. The vastness of this universe is almost incomprehensible to us who are tiny specks on this tiny speck of a planet, on the outer reaches of one small galaxy. Putting things into perspective is mind boggling when we consider that things exist here that are so small that we cannot see them with the naked eye....when making the comparisons we can echo David’s words...
Psalm 8:3-4..
“When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers,
The moon and the stars that you have prepared,
What is mortal man that you keep him in mind,
And a son of man that you take care of him?”


We can now see so much more than David could.

3) There are the heavens where birds fly and where clouds form to make the rain that sustains all life on this planet. Our atmosphere is sealed off from space so that there is not a molecule of water or air that can escape. All is continually recycled to provide all we need to keep living forever on this beautiful home that our Creator provided.

Why do people assume that they must go to heaven, when ‘heaven’ (paradise) was created for us here on earth?
It was never God’s intention to take any humans to heaven....but sin caused a detour in his plans, so He rose to the challenge to maintain his Sovereignty and to preserve the gift of free will, which had been abused by the first rebel, who then hijacked the human race for his own selfish reasons. Our situation here is not just about us.....it is equally about God’s spirit family as well.

If we have a clear view of the big picture, then heaven is only a very small part of it in God’s purpose for the human race. The kingdom is how God beings us back “home”....to the beautiful place where he first placed us. (Isaiah 45:18) A small number are chosen for a role in heaven because only humans know what it is like to live in a body of flesh....as Jesus also did. They will be perfect ‘rulers and priests’. (Revelation 20:6; Hebrews 4:14-15)

Interestingly, the "morning stars" also sing. I find that a most very interesting statement! Highly provocative.
This is obviously figurative since Jesus said to the apostle John...
“I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.’” (Revelation 22:16)
So if Jesus, as one who dwells in heaven, identifies himself as “the bright morning star” it stands to reason that these “morning stars” are also those who are in heaven. They sing praises to God just like we do.

I think God has that right already.
Of course he does....but satan challenged God’s right as Sovereign to set the limits of human freedom.
He accused his Creator of many things, slandering him, so God allowed an object lesson that would answer every one of those accusations and prove that he has the best interests of his creatures at heart. By doing this, he will prove that satan is a liar and He will never have to deal with the abuse of free will ever again. Do you not see the wisdom of his actions?
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,497
21,646
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The faithful angels hate satan for what he and his hordes have done, and are still doing to us down here.
Are you certain you understand and know the emotional lives of angels? I wouldn't think that really knowable, myself. But that's just me, perhaps you have some special insight into that.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,497
21,646
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Interestingly, the "morning stars" also sing. I find that a most very interesting statement! Highly provocative.

This is obviously figurative since Jesus said to the apostle John...
“I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you about these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright morning star.’” (Revelation 22:16)

That's what makes it so interesting!

"until the day dawn, and the day star rises in your hearts . . ."

Have you ever notices that there are no mentions in the Bible of angels "singing"?

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,497
21,646
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Of course he does....but satan challenged God’s right as Sovereign to set the limits of human freedom.
Just the same, God is Sovereign over all, and owns the earth, and everything in it. Regardless of what anyone thinks. God sets the limits, not Satan.

Much love!