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Agreed 100% Behold.
Sure, "salvation" is by grace through faith alone, not our own good deeds--I agree--however, I think we don't define "salvation" the same way. I think Paul defines it by the precedents that went before us : the Jews were "saved" out of Egypt, by the blood of lambs (foreshadowing Christ's blood, Christ our Passover Lamb), yet, afterward, their behavior determined their outcome, and whether they would inherit the Promise made to them, and I think that the Promise made to us is determined by our behavior by grace through faith as well.
No, I can serve God out of love, but I can't serve God 100% out of love, with no fear, which was what it seemed God objected to. He wanted service with ZERO fear at all.
I probably have more sin than anyone.
That's similar to what God told me--that I was trying to pay for Him back for my sins. I didn't realize I was doing that.
It's what I read in the Bible--threats, caveats and contingencies.
Probably because my step dad was a Muslim terrorist who would beat us for reasons we could not discern, and etc, etc, etc, other life experiences, I also have a similar view of God, and I see in Scripture reasons for that?
Maybe because I view the Cross as ineffective or incomplete, it doesn't come across as real love to me?
No, I mean I think about going to hell and being tormented if I don't do what I'm supposed to do, and, somehow, that is wrong.
Yeah, we love because He loved us first, but the love is to be in deed not in word, 1 John says, so there is a fear that I may not do the thing that is loving and therefore lose eligibility for the love. Jesus says He lays His life down for His friends, and you are His friend IF YOU DO WHAT HE SAYS. So you have to do what He says for the laid down life to mean anything.
I am NOT confused! Stop your nonsense Behold.
Well, love should be in both word and deed. But why wouldn't it be? Does it make any sense to say you love but act as if you don't? Makes no sense..
I either experience God's love or I don't--I don't get nourished by a word but by a substance. Words are just words.
In your post 164 you state that we are to show our love in good deeds and not only in word.
My service was excepted to on the basis it was partially out of fear, but it is the most insulting thing to my intelligence to say serve only out of love as if I'm not being threatened bc if I'm not being threatened that would make it as though there were no penalty for not obeying but that is not true. The penalty is torment. If there is no penalty, just love, there is no reason to bother myself to go out of my way to obey.
It doesn't matter if you want to, all that matters is that you DO it after wanting it, bc, by my view, that's salvation
I DO agree with you that we are to serve God and obey God's wishes.
Agree- obedience is a result of loving God. If we go off and live in rebellion to God are we saved? I sure don't think so.
He wants you to have peace. fully trusting in Him brings peace. He wants to you have a healthy fear- which is a deep reverence for who He is and all of His power- but never terror!
Ah- I doubt it but it's good to know another sinner who is now freed!
I had to learn the same thing my friend. I think it's our nature not to want to accept a gift without paying someone back.. WE could never do enough to pay Him back. Never. He did it for us- the sinless lamb who loved us.-
Maybe we can discuss those. I used to read the bible in fear too, but no more. Lay out the verses for us when you can..
YES. That is a tough one and I can relate.. Parents have no idea the influence they have over us. I had to come to the place where I had to separate my dad from God- and see him just as another sinner who needed Christ. -- I had a very hard time trusting God because of my experiences too. BUT it's a mistake and actually very unfair to God to allow human behaviors to cloud who He truly is.
You view it as incomplete-- how so? You sure can't do it-save yourself? how? because we should desire to now obey Him? He writes his law on our hearts and His Spirit lives in us so we do desire to obey him- we are wiser now aren't we?
I named myself GracePeace because it is a wish that I have for my life.
It sure makes a difference to me. It makes it so much easier. Doing something because we want to vs against our will is huge.
We are saved, just as the Jews were saved, but, as with the Jews after they were saved, our behavior determines our outcome (1 Corinthians 10).
I always, always, always, hear a voice "Peace", "rest", "sabbath", "son", etc.
Yes, this verse confuses me--and I view it is a "clue" to a better understanding than the one I have.
Yeah, that's nice, but interpreting 1 John by 1 John, we also see "love in deed not merely words", and "the one who keeps God's commands in him is the love of God truly perfected"--fear entered only after Adam first disobeyed, so, yes, obviously, those who are obedient have nothing to fear... yet all of my obedience was not acceptable, because it was in part motivated by fear. I don't understand how to arrive, through Scripture, at a place without fear. To me, Scripture instills fear--or maybe it just reifies the fear I have always had, or my fear I've always had is reified by my interpretation of Scripture (in which case I'd be open to the verse "come let us reason").
Yeah I remember thinking I was wrong in thinking I could pay for the gift of God's presence/fellowship, because it is too costly, but maybe it would be right to redirect that energy in saying "I can't earn God, but I can allow that instinct to energize my life".
Branches that don't abide get cut off and burned; abide in Him little children so when He appears you will not shrink back in shame; if we go on sinning after having received the knowledge of the truth (and James says if you know good but don't do it it is a sin to you--therefore you are saving yourself with your works, thus Jesus doesn't save); make every effort to enter the narrow gate because many will try to enter and will not be able to enter but will go to hell; fear God Who can destroy both body and soul in hell fire.
It is incomplete because we are required to walk in love/faith and are condemned if we do not (Ro 1:17, 2:6-16, 14:5, 14:23).
No, obedience saves you from hell, it isn't just for your own good... unless you conceive of "hell" as the the culmination of all the "for your own good" that you do not live, like a cartoon is a moving picture made up of many individual illustrations, maybe when people pay for their sins it is the "moving picture" of the individual "for your own good" that they did not live.
I have that wish for you also. You can have it. It's a battle to lay hold of it and a battle to keep it- but we can have it. Satan wants to rob us of it. But God does provide it. One thing I have learned is it's open season on us. We HAVE to draw close and stay close and keep our eyes fixed on Jesus.
Maybe the fear of being tossed into hell came from them. God spoke to you, GracePeace. He told you an amazing thing- and one that He also had to teach me- salvation is a gift- stop trying to earn it. You have been set free of your sins and are one of God's children. He wants you to walk in His love and embrace it in peace and thankfulness.
I guess what sticks in my craw is being told "salvation is a gift", but also being told that I will go to hell if I don't obey, but, then, also, not allowing me to fear. I'm being threatened, but I'm not allowed to acknowledge I am being threatened! It doesn't make sense. Then, I try to obey to enter the narrow gate--and God is still with me, out of His love and patience--but that's still also wrong! "No, serve only out of love." Well, what if I don't? "You'll go to hell." So, serve, or else you'll go to hell, but you'd better do it completely out of love, or else your service is not accepted, and you'll go to hell. How does that make sense? How can you accept that or live that?
Great! I love that!! He is comforting you- trust Him!!
It should not confuse you. We serve out of love not fear of torment.
I don't see the problem. We love in deeds and words because isn't it hypocritical to say one thing but do another? If we really so love our deeds will follow our words. If we say we love God and yet disregard the needs of others is that loving? Would you help someone who needed help or would you say you are too busy? Isn't doing good things that honor God what you prefer to do?
Yes it's in our nature to want to repay. But we can't. It's too tall of an order to fill. We are sinners- Christ was sinless and ONLY he could pay our debt. And He did- our job is to believe Him.- FULLY believe that His "work" on the cross is our very salvation.
1) We should stay connected to Him- without Him we can do nothing. We are to abide. That doesn't threaten me- I want to abide in Him. Don't you?
Fear that involves torment is not for the believer- love needs to be perfected in you. as John said. The only way to do that is to FULLY accept that you are saved by Jesus' work and not your own. Your works can not save you!!!!! <---Get that FIRST!
Again- try walking in love and faith if you don't fully believe that Jesus' blood saves you. You can't. When you DO understand and believe that-- you wont see this as a "requirement" but as a result of his love for you.-- bubbling forth out of you to others.
I 'don't understand this response.
