Open rebellion against God

[Not me]

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB)
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is a description and situation of a Christian, a person who is saved living in open rebellion against God...It is a picture of a child of God choosing to live in sin...

Paul says He has turned them over for the destruction of the flesh....Meaning that as long as they continue to deliberately choose sin over God they are to be buffeted with all unpleasant things...All the storms of life are to be sent their way...Peace they will not know...Security they will not know... Though they may outwardly be a success inwardly they will be the most miserable of creatures... This misery will grow and grow, they can and might harden their heart against it, but the inner misery will grow and grow and become relentless .... Because the gifts and calling of God are;

Romans 11:29 (NASB)
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Once they have been given they will never ever be taken back....Once, a person becomes a child of God that is an irrevocable thing...They will always remain His child... Though that child chooses to live in sin all the days of their lives to the very end. They themselves will be saved, they themselves have lost all their rewards, but their spirit will be saved....For to the saving of all is God’s desire, He wishes for none to perish so He has made it as simple as can be...Choose Him and once you have chosen Him, He will work in you both to will and to do... And how He coerces one is just like Jonah, He makes their life a living hell tell they turn back to Him...

(And this I know by experience)....

A fellow sinner saved by His unending relentless love, Not me

 

[Brakelite]

So what happened to "the wages of sin is death'? Now yes, Jesus took sin upon Himself... But even for those who choose to retain and keep it for themselves? What happened to repentance? Or does repentance mean not turning away from sin anymore so long as you "identify" as Christian?

 

[theophilus]

Or does repentance mean not turning away from sin anymore so long as you "identify" as Christian?

Repentance does mean turning away from sin but those who have repented still have the old nature which is attracted to sin. Sometimes a believer will yield to that nature and go back to living a sinful lifestyle. If he is truly saved God will not allow him to go on that way but will bring him back,

 

[Not me]

So what happened to "the wages of sin is death'? Now yes, Jesus took sin upon Himself... But even for those who choose to retain and keep it for themselves? What happened to repentance? Or does repentance mean not turning away from sin anymore so long as you "identify" as Christian?

Being a Christian is having the Divine nature birthed in us. Once this birth has happened, we now have a choice on which nature we will yield to, the old or the new...If we choose the old that does not mean the new has died...It is still and always will be a alive in us calling us back to Him...

And how blessed are we this is true, for we all need this in our growing up in Him..

Be blessed in Christ, a fellow believer, Not me

 

[Candidus]

Being a Christian is having the Divine nature birthed in us. Once this birth has happened, we now have a choice on which nature we will yield to, the old or the new...If we choose the old that does not mean the new has died...It is still and always will be a alive in us calling us back to Him...

And how blessed are we this is true, for we all need this in our growing up in Him..

Be blessed in Christ, a fellow believer, Not me

Scripture knows nothing of being a half Born-Again, half-regenerated, half-Christian. Walking around as a powerless, unconverted

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is the walk of the unregenerate. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn. 3:9.​

 

[Candidus]

So what happened to "the wages of sin is death'? Now yes, Jesus took sin upon Himself... But even for those who choose to retain and keep it for themselves? What happened to repentance? Or does repentance mean not turning away from sin anymore so long as you "identify" as Christian?

I would believe what God says about sin from cover to cover! God means what He says! The "wages of sin" didn't go anywhere!

The unregenerate will find another way into the Kingdom of God, inventing a "theology" where the Believer is not ever really regenerated, converted, Born-Again or sanctified. This "theology" really does not believe that God "saves" or changes anyone, but believes the fiction that the sinner's Sin gets regenerated, converted and Born-Again so that their Sin has a changed nature so that it no longer receives its wages. They will not say it this way, but that is what they are teaching so they can teach that one living in an unregenerate state is somehow still "saved!" When you get "saved," God does not wink at and sanctify your Sin. The wages of sin is still death; A Spiritual Death that includes an Eternal Separation from God in Hell.

 

[Brakelite]

Yet you said

they can and might harden their heart against it

A person can harden his heart against the Spirit of God and God reinvents language that deliberate sin no longer means rebellion?

 

[Brakelite]

Repentance does mean turning away from sin but those who have repented still have the old nature which is attracted to sin. Sometimes a believer will yield to that nature and go back to living a sinful lifestyle. If he is truly saved God will not allow him to go on that way but will bring him back,

Now I can agree with that. Have been there myself. Now I'm back. Not by my own doing, but by God's mercy and Grace He saved me. Like the Shepherd finding His lost sheep, and there's no parable describing a sheep searching for the Shepherd.
Yet a person can and does, as @Not me said, harden his heart against the Spirit of God, and having free will can choose to continue to sin rather than surrender. In such cases he has chosen a new master.

 

[Candidus]

Yet you said

A person can harden his heart against the Spirit of God and God reinvents language that deliberate sin no longer means rebellion?

Good question!~ I would never go against Scripture and say that deliberate sin is no longer rebellion, or that rebellion is not still sin! God says that willful sinning is a rebellion that received a recompense and judgement that should be feared. The Lord shall judge His people!

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31.)

 

[Brakelite]

Good question!~ I would never go against Scripture and say that deliberate sin is no longer rebellion, or that rebellion is not still sin! God says that willful sinning is a rebellion that received a recompense and judgement that should be feared. The Lord shall judge His people!

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:26-31.)

While I agree with you, I do think the grace of God and His love is more reflective of His character than His desire for justice and judgement. As others would agree, He does seek and save the lost... Including the backslidden... And I would strongly suggest that those that do backslide and harden their hearts to the degree where they are finally lost, are a very rare breed. God's grace is powerful... His love and passion for us infinite... His faithfulness constant and personal, so while it is possible for a man to be lost after having known the truth, I don't think it would be inevitable or easily accomplished. It has to be a conscious deliberate decision. That cannot be easy.

 

[Candidus]

Repentance does mean turning away from sin but those who have repented still have the old nature which is attracted to sin. Sometimes a believer will yield to that nature and go back to living a sinful lifestyle. If he is truly saved God will not allow him to go on that way but will bring him back,

God reaches out to us, we do not pursue God. We are told... "Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:” Do not presume on the grace of God!

There is no passage in all of Scripture that says that once one is a believer that God is obligated to bring them back. Turning such a one over to Satan is not salvation. It is an attempt to cut off in this physical world from Christian fellowship to reflect what God has already done spiritually. Yet, God no more forces a person to believe and become a Christian than He forces a "Backslider" to return to the fold. I would not encourage anyone's decline into sin by telling them they are safe and to presume upon the grace of God.

 

[Candidus]

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB)
Once they have been given they will never ever be taken back....Once, a person becomes a child of God that is an irrevocable thing...They will always remain His child...

The "once a child, always a child" fallacy! Were you not once a "child of the devil"? "Once one is born... that cannot be un-born!" Yet Scripture says they can die and perish spiritually! You were born lost, so by this argument you cannot ever be "un-born"! Right?

"Once a sheep, always a sheep.... people firmly believe that; yet they contradict themselves by believing that a Goat can become a Sheep!

God's gifts and calling are irrevocable; but our acceptance of or rejection of it is not! As for God’s gifts being "irrevocable," we must read the chapter and not just take and run with Scripture as if it were proof-texts. The context is directed towards the Jews. Paul was indicating that God has not abandoned them and still has a plan for them. He states that God turned away from them because of unbelief, and that the gentiles have been grafted in. God cut off the Jews because unbelief, and He says in plain words that he will do the same to us if we do not continue in His goodness. (11:13-24.) Belief is the condition of receiving the gift, and unbelief is the rejection of the gift.

God never takes back His Covenant with people; but these Covenants are conditioned on two parties. No one has to remain in a Covenant and receive its conditional blessings.

 

[Sabertooth]

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Another interpretation of that verse is that even when you stop living for Jesus, you get to "keep" the gifts.

Jesus said,
“Not everyone who says to Me,

‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.​

Many will say to Me in that day,

‘Lord, Lord, have we not​

• prophesied in Your name,
• cast out demons in Your name, and
• done many wonders in Your name?’

And then I will declare to them,

‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ " Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV​

 

[Not me]

Scripture knows nothing of being a half Born-Again, half-regenerated, half-Christian. Walking around as a powerless, unconverted

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is the walk of the unregenerate. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn. 3:9.​

Yes, correct scripture speaks nothing about a half nature, but it does say; to whom you yield yourself, his servants you are...Christ or self, old or new nature...We chose which one rules in us daily, hourly, minute by minute..

Be blessed in the choosing...

A fellow servant of His, Not me

 

[Not me]

Another interpretation of that verse is that even when you stop living for Jesus, you get to "keep" the gifts.

Jesus said,
“Not everyone who says to Me,

‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.​

Many will say to Me in that day,

‘Lord, Lord, have we not​

• prophesied in Your name,
• cast out demons in Your name, and
• done many wonders in Your name?’

And then I will declare to them,

‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ " Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV​

As the Spirit of Christ teaches you, I wish you all good things in Christ..

A fellow learner, Not me

 

[Not me]

The "once a child, always a child" fallacy! Were you not once a "child of the devil"? "Once one is born... that cannot be un-born!" Yet Scripture says they can die and perish spiritually! You were born lost, so by this argument you cannot ever be "un-born"! Right?

"Once a sheep, always a sheep.... people firmly believe that; yet they contradict themselves by believing that a Goat can become a Sheep!

God's gifts and calling are irrevocable; but our acceptance of or rejection of it is not! As for God’s gifts being "irrevocable," we must read the chapter and not just take and run with Scripture as if it were proof-texts. The context is directed towards the Jews. Paul was indicating that God has not abandoned them and still has a plan for them. He states that God turned away from them because of unbelief, and that the gentiles have been grafted in. God cut off the Jews because unbelief, and He says in plain words that he will do the same to us if we do not continue in His goodness. (11:13-24.) Belief is the condition of receiving the gift, and unbelief is the rejection of the gift.

God never takes back His Covenant with people; but these Covenants are conditioned on two parties. No one has to remain in a Covenant and receive its conditional blessings.

As your personal relationship with Christ so teaches you...

Be blessed in Him, Not me

 

[theophilus]

Scripture knows nothing of being a half Born-Again, half-regenerated, half-Christian. Walking around as a powerless, unconverted

Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is the walk of the unregenerate. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn. 3:9.​

Here is how the ESV translates 1 John 3:9:

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Every child of God is fully born again and regenerated, but while on this earth he still has his old nature, so he can still sin; he just can't continue to live in sin the way an unsaved person can. David committed adultery with Bathsheba and tried to cover up his sin by having her husband murdered but his conscience bothered him and when Nathan pointed out his sin he repented.

There is no passage in all of Scripture that says that once one is a believer that God is obligated to bring them back. Turning such a one over to Satan is not salvation.

God is not obligated to bring a believer back when he sins any more than he is obligated to save him in the first place, but he has promised he will do so. Turning someone over to Satan is not salvation, but a believer who is turned over to Satan does not lose his salvation. First Corinthians 5:5 says, "You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."

 

[Candidus]

Here is how the ESV translates 1 John 3:9:

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Every child of God is fully born again and regenerated, but while on this earth he still has his old nature, so he can still sin; he just can't continue to live in sin the way an unsaved person can. David committed adultery with Bathsheba and tried to cover up his sin by having her husband murdered but his conscience bothered him and when Nathan pointed out his sin he repented.


God is not obligated to bring a believer back when he sins any more than he is obligated to save him in the first place, but he has promised he will do so. Turning someone over to Satan is not salvation, but a believer who is turned over to Satan does not lose his salvation. First Corinthians 5:5 says, "You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."

The Bible is against sin and sinning from cover to cover! God hates sin! Jesus died because of our sins! God provides the believer with regeneration, conversion, the New-Birth and sanctification. God promises us that He can keep us from falling, that when temptation comes, He will provide a way of escape. Yet, those that do not believe God spend most of their time creating a "theology" that fights more "for" sin than it fights against it!

First, it goes against the style of John in this Epistle. John is black and white, either/or. You are either in the light or in darkness (1:5-7). We have come to know Him, "if we keep His commandments"; and the one who does not, "keep His commandments is a liar." (2:3-4). he who loves his brother abides in the light and there is no cause for stumbling..; but the one who hates his brother is in the darkness... (2:10-11). John is either/or.

Chapter 3:4

John gives a series of contrasts, either/or. "Whosoever committeth [present tense] sin transgresseth the law. For sin is the transgression of the law."

The contrast:

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." (v.5).

Whether you "practice" sin, or as it really means... present tense commit sin, it is a transgression of the law. This is contrasted with Jesus, who has no sin "in" Him, and was "manifested to take away our sins."

Based upon this, verse 6 says: "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not."

Whosoever abides in Jesus does not [present tense] sin. ​

The contrast:

"Whosoever [present tense] sins has not seen Him, nor knows Him." Practice or not, John plainly says that the one who "present tense'" sins, does not know Jesus.

3:7...

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth [present tense] righteousness is righteous, even as he (He, Jesus) is righteous."

So, is our present tense righteous only a part-time "righteousness? It is compared to and said to be exactly the same as the righteousness of Christ. Was Jesus only "practicing" righteousness in a way as to not "continue to live in sin" the way an unsaved person can"? Like David in his adultery and murder?

The contrast:

Verse 8

"He that [present tense] sin(s) is of the devil..." So is John saying that if we "practice" sinning less than we "practice" righteousness, we are not of the devil? Of course not! John says that our righteousness is the same as the righteousness of Christ! Not part-time! This is just another either/or contrast by John.

Verse 8, "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." Jesus just told us what the "works of the devil" are! It is [present tense] sinning! Does Jesus fail in this clearly stated "purpose"? Where does this passage even imply that "destruction" of sin is merely a diversion to sinning "less" and doing righteousness "sometimes," perhaps more than when you were not saved?

Verse 9

Somehow, after John hammers home the stark contrasts of sin and righteousness, being either of Christ or the devil, there are "translators" who somehow arrive that John was "iffy" about these contrasts! That it is now "magically' speaking about a mere "makes a practice of sinning," as a general life direction. What a leap in logic, and a clear defiance of everything else John has said in context! Somehow, an inconvenient verse is presented in a way that allows people to sin like the devil, and be righteous like Jesus is, all at the same time!

Appealing to a murderer and adulterer in connection of what John writes to justify sin and sinning is clearly not exegesis, or even sound theology.

 

[Waiting on him]

The Bible is against sin and sinning from cover to cover! God hates sin! Jesus died because of our sins! God provides the believer with regeneration, conversion, the New-Birth and sanctification. God promises us that He can keep us from falling, that when temptation comes, He will provide a way of escape. Yet, those that do not believe God spend most of their time creating a "theology" that fights more "for" sin than it fights against it!

First, it goes against the style of John in this Epistle. John is black and white, either/or. You are either in the light or in darkness (1:5-7). We have come to know Him, "if we keep His commandments"; and the one who does not, "keep His commandments is a liar." (2:3-4). he who loves his brother abides in the light and there is no cause for stumbling..; but the one who hates his brother is in the darkness... (2:10-11). John is either/or.

Chapter 3:4

John gives a series of contrasts, either/or. "Whosoever committeth [present tense] sin transgresseth the law. For sin is the transgression of the law."

The contrast:

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." (v.5).

Whether you "practice" sin, or as it really means... present tense commit sin, it is a transgression of the law. This is contrasted with Jesus, who has no sin "in" Him, and was "manifested to take away our sins."

Based upon this, verse 6 says: "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not."

Whosoever abides in Jesus does not [present tense] sin. ​

The contrast:

"Whosoever [present tense] sins has not seen Him, nor knows Him." Practice or not, John plainly says that the one who "present tense'" sins, does not know Jesus.

3:7...

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth [present tense] righteousness is righteous, even as he (He, Jesus) is righteous."

So, is our present tense righteous only a part-time "righteousness? It is compared to and said to be exactly the same as the righteousness of Christ. Was Jesus only "practicing" righteousness in a way as to not "continue to live in sin the way an unsaved person can"? Like David in his adultery and murder?

The contrast:

Verse 8

"He that [present tense] sin(s) is of the devil..." So is John saying that if we "practice" sinning less than we "practice" righteousness, we are not of the devil? Of course not! John says that our righteousness is the same as the righteousness of Christ! Not part-time! This is just another either/or contrast by John.

Verse 8, "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." Jesus just told us what the "works of the devil" are! It is [present tense] sinning! Does Jesus fail in this clearly stated "purpose"? Where does this passage even imply that "destruction" of sin is merely a diversion to sinning "less" and doing "sometimes" perhaps more than when you were not saved?

Verse 9

Somehow, after John hammers home the stark contrasts of sin and righteousness, being either of Christ or the devil, there are "translators" who somehow arrive that John was "iffy" about these contrasts! That it is now "magically' speaking about a mere "makes a practice of sinning," as a general life direction. What a leap in logic, and a clear defiance of everything else John has said in context! Somehow, an inconvenient verse is presented in a way that allows people to sin like the devil, and be righteous like Jesus is, all at the same time!

Appealing to a murderer and rapist in connection of what John writes to justify sin and sinning is clearly not exegesis, or even sound theology.

How do you determine what is sin?

 

[Candidus]

"You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."

"so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord..." Notice that it does not say "will be saved." It is the word "saved" in the subjunctive mood, which makes an assertion about which there is some doubt. Proving, once again, that there are no passages in all of Scripture that say or prove that God is obligated or will recover a Backslider.