Open rebellion against God

[quietthinker]

The medieval church with is sophistication worked out methods of salvation while maintaining rebellion. At the same time its sophistry pulls the rug out from under its parishioners entrapping all who drink it’s wine.

No sanctification=no hope. To argue contrary to this is none other than self deception irrespective of how cleverly the words are formulated.

 

[mjrhealth]

God cut off the Jews because unbelief,

And yet in the end He will save them, you did leave out that bit.

 

[mjrhealth]

The Bible is against sin and sinning from cover to cover! God hates sin! Jesus died because of our sins! God provides the believer with regeneration, conversion, the New-Birth and sanctification. God promises us that He can keep us from falling, that when temptation comes, He will provide a way of escape. Yet, those that do not believe God spend most of their time creating a "theology" that fights more "for" sin than it fights against it!

First, it goes against the style of John in this Epistle. John is black and white, either/or. You are either in the light or in darkness (1:5-7). We have come to know Him, "if we keep His commandments"; and the one who does not, "keep His commandments is a liar." (2:3-4). he who loves his brother abides in the light and there is no cause for stumbling..; but the one who hates his brother is in the darkness... (2:10-11). John is either/or.

Chapter 3:4

John gives a series of contrasts, either/or. "Whosoever committeth [present tense] sin transgresseth the law. For sin is the transgression of the law."

The contrast:

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin." (v.5).

Whether you "practice" sin, or as it really means... present tense commit sin, it is a transgression of the law. This is contrasted with Jesus, who has no sin "in" Him, and was "manifested to take away our sins."

Based upon this, verse 6 says: "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not."

Whosoever abides in Jesus does not [present tense] sin. ​

The contrast:

"Whosoever [present tense] sins has not seen Him, nor knows Him." Practice or not, John plainly says that the one who "present tense'" sins, does not know Jesus.

3:7...

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth [present tense] righteousness is righteous, even as he (He, Jesus) is righteous."

So, is our present tense righteous only a part-time "righteousness? It is compared to and said to be exactly the same as the righteousness of Christ. Was Jesus only "practicing" righteousness in a way as to not "continue to live in sin" the way an unsaved person can"? Like David in his adultery and murder?

The contrast:

Verse 8

"He that [present tense] sin(s) is of the devil..." So is John saying that if we "practice" sinning less than we "practice" righteousness, we are not of the devil? Of course not! John says that our righteousness is the same as the righteousness of Christ! Not part-time! This is just another either/or contrast by John.

Verse 8, "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." Jesus just told us what the "works of the devil" are! It is [present tense] sinning! Does Jesus fail in this clearly stated "purpose"? Where does this passage even imply that "destruction" of sin is merely a diversion to sinning "less" and doing righteousness "sometimes," perhaps more than when you were not saved?

Verse 9

Somehow, after John hammers home the stark contrasts of sin and righteousness, being either of Christ or the devil, there are "translators" who somehow arrive that John was "iffy" about these contrasts! That it is now "magically' speaking about a mere "makes a practice of sinning," as a general life direction. What a leap in logic, and a clear defiance of everything else John has said in context! Somehow, an inconvenient verse is presented in a way that allows people to sin like the devil, and be righteous like Jesus is, all at the same time!

Appealing to a murderer and rapist in connection of what John writes to justify sin and sinning is clearly not exegesis, or even sound theology.

So than are you another who does not Sin.. Are you too the perfect Christian who has no need of Gods grace,

My grace is sufficient.

For some it is not enough, is it sin we are condoning or is it grace we are justifiyng. I have yet to meat the perfect christian, and I am sure God has never met one.

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Maybe that's the problem too many lawyers?

1 Timothy 1:7
desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

,'groan,.'... Here we go...

If he's struggling, he's going to be alright. But @Not me didn't say the dude was struggling. He said he had hardened his heart... In other words he was resisting the reasons of the Spirit to repent... He was preferring there state of rebellion than the state of communion and peace. God will give him what he wants.

The dude @Not me was talking about was not accepting that chastening, but hardening his heart and resisting it. If he was accepting the chastening as you described there would be no issue. He wasn't. He was continuing in sin... Was enjoying it... Preferring it.

so you have never hardened your heart in one sin area and continued

what do you think struggling is? It is where we strengthen our flesh “harden our heart” and continue to screw up by doing what we know we should not be doing

 

[FollowHim]

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB)
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is a description and situation of a Christian, a person who is saved living in open rebellion against God...It is a picture of a child of God choosing to live in sin...

Paul says He has turned them over for the destruction of the flesh....Meaning that as long as they continue to deliberately choose sin over God they are to be buffeted with all unpleasant things...All the storms of life are to be sent their way...Peace they will not know...Security they will not know... Though they may outwardly be a success inwardly they will be the most miserable of creatures... This misery will grow and grow, they can and might harden their heart against it, but the inner misery will grow and grow and become relentless .... Because the gifts and calling of God are;

Romans 11:29 (NASB)
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Once they have been given they will never ever be taken back....Once, a person becomes a child of God that is an irrevocable thing...They will always remain His child... Though that child chooses to live in sin all the days of their lives to the very end. They themselves will be saved, they themselves have lost all their rewards, but their spirit will be saved....For to the saving of all is God’s desire, He wishes for none to perish so He has made it as simple as can be...Choose Him and once you have chosen Him, He will work in you both to will and to do... And how He coerces one is just like Jonah, He makes their life a living hell tell they turn back to Him...

(And this I know by experience)....

A fellow sinner saved by His unending relentless love, Not me

This is a difficult verse, handing a believer over to satan to be punished.
It seems to be the believer still has faith in God, but like Job will suffer in the flesh, to purify their attitude.

Paul is thinking this individual still has faith, their behaviour is wrong. If you see this in context of losing their faith and thereby their salvation things become different.

One of the issues with sin divides us from God, is every sin that is counted as sin, means we have broken our fellowship with the Lord. This is clearly not true, as though all our sins are forgiven we are not aware of them all. The walk of discipleship is a walk of transformation and working through the issues and areas that cause our behaviour, that need resolution. So one has the dilemma of a sinful act cannot break the relationship, rather it erodes its possibility. If left to stay, unrepentant it will destroy the relationship.

David fell into sin with Bathsheba, but it was worked through over a year, with repentance and reconciliation. Or in our normal relationships, incidents happen, but the consequences get worked through. If damage is done continually in the end the relationship breaks completely.

So our walk is a walk of transformation from glory to glory, closer and closer to the image of Christ, or step by step further away, to where our love grows cold and faith disappears, and church itself becomes a distant memory. We call this backsliding, and is a common experience throughout churches and fellowships.

Compromise with sin, is like weeds growing in us, if we let them fester and take root, they change and destroy everything that went before and we do not see it. Our branch dies and we get removed from the vine.

 

[Candidus]

So than are you another who does not Sin.. Are you too the perfect Christian who has no need of Gods grace,

My grace is sufficient.

For some it is not enough, is it sin we are condoning or is it grace we are justifiyng. I have yet to meat the perfect christian, and I am sure God has never met one.

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

You are another that loves sin and hates holiness.

2 Timothy 2: 2-3 ~ "For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good..."

Don't you just love ad hominems!

 

[Not me]

This is a difficult verse, handing a believer over to satan to be punished.
It seems to be the believer still has faith in God, but like Job will suffer in the flesh, to purify their attitude.

Paul is thinking this individual still has faith, their behaviour is wrong. If you see this in context of losing their faith and thereby their salvation things become different.

One of the issues with sin divides us from God, is every sin that is counted as sin, means we have broken our fellowship with the Lord. This is clearly not true, as though all our sins are forgiven we are not aware of them all. The walk of discipleship is a walk of transformation and working through the issues and areas that cause our behaviour, that need resolution. So one has the dilemma of a sinful act cannot break the relationship, rather it erodes its possibility. If left to stay, unrepentant it will destroy the relationship.

David fell into sin with Bathsheba, but it was worked through over a year, with repentance and reconciliation. Or in our normal relationships, incidents happen, but the consequences get worked through. If damage is done continually in the end the relationship breaks completely.

So our walk is a walk of transformation from glory to glory, closer and closer to the image of Christ, or step by step further away, to where our love grows cold and faith disappears, and church itself becomes a distant memory. We call this backsliding, and is a common experience throughout churches and fellowships.

Compromise with sin, is like weeds growing in us, if we let them fester and take root, they change and destroy everything that went before and we do not see it. Our branch dies and we get removed from the vine.

Be blessed as the Spirit of Christ continues to teach and conform you to Christ...

A fellow believer being conformed, Not me

 

[Candidus]

And yet in the end He will save them, you did leave out that bit.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"

and

"if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again...."

I guess you left that out!

 

[Rocky Wiley]

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB)
I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Who did Jesus say were the children of the devil?

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Jesus said if you were true children you would do his works. They were children of Abraham, but they did the works of their father Esau who married the daughters of Cain.
8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
They were of Abraham, but also of Esau, who married daughters of Cain.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Again, Jesus says they are the children of Cain.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 

[theophilus]

If there is a way in to becoming a Christian, logically the way out is similar. If it is easy to become a Christian; it is just as easy to become an unbeliever.

When you become a Christian God makes an irrevocable choice to save you. He knows every sin you have committed or will ever commit and he forgives all of them. We cannot believe in Christ unless the Holy Spirit enables us and it would require the help of the Spirit to reject him.

 

[Candidus]

Hebrews 12
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.''

If you endure chastening, God deals with you as sons. God chastens us for our profit. What do these things mean to you?

Seriously!

Are you a son whom God chastens? Or not? If yes, Why? If not, Why? How does this passage relate to your life. Or does it?

Much love!

The wages of sin is death. That is non-negotiable.

He who is born of God does not sin. The one in open rebellion is not a son.

Willful sin brings death; spiritual death. So, chastening is not about willful sin and rebellion. Nothing in the context of Hebrews 12:7-10 speaks of willful sin, open rebellion or anything close to that. As we walk with God, He reveals things to us that become "sin." An example would be smoking. No law in the Bible specifically forbids it. I may be comfortable as a Christian smoking. I knew a man who smoked after he became a Christian. for 10 years. One morning during prayer, God revealed to him that it was a sin for him to continue to do so. God chastised him, and he handed it over to God and stopped. Revealing the need to change, whether it is in Scripture or not, continues as any son continues in the faith.

The purpose of chastisement is stated, “For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness” (Heb.12:10). While chastening is not pleasurable (12:11), it has its purpose to make us holy.

 

[Candidus]

When you become a Christian God makes an irrevocable choice to save you. He knows every sin you have committed or will ever commit and he forgives all of them. We cannot believe in Christ unless the Holy Spirit enables us and it would require the help of the Spirit to reject him.

Nonsense!

When we come to Christ the Bible tells us that our past sins are forgiven. There is not one example in Scripture that future sins (that do not exist) are forgiven. The presumption of pre-forgiveness is nowhere in Scripture. It is a false doctrine. No one is forced by the Holy Spirit to believe and be saved. Building doctrines of pure speculation and not Scripture is how we get strange doctrines like what you are promoting.

 

[theophilus]

When we come to Christ the Bible tells us that our past sins are forgiven. There is not one example in Scripture that future sins (that do not exist) are forgiven. The presumption of pre-forgiveness is nowhere in Scripture. It is a false doctrine. No one is forced by the Holy Spirit to believe and be saved. Building doctrines of pure speculation and not Scripture is how we get strange doctrines like what you are promoting.

When Christ died for our sins all of them were still in the future.

 

[Not me]

Who did Jesus say were the children of the devil?

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Jesus said if you were true children you would do his works. They were children of Abraham, but they did the works of their father Esau who married the daughters of Cain.
8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
They were of Abraham, but also of Esau, who married daughters of Cain.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Again, Jesus says they are the children of Cain.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jn 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Be blessed as you learn Christ...

A fellow learner, Not me

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Paul says He has turned them over for the destruction of the flesh....Meaning that as long as they continue to deliberately choose sin over God they are to be buffeted with all unpleasant things...

I believe that "the destruction of his flesh" meant sickness and/or death. It would be more merciful for a Christian to die than to lose his salvation (if possible) due to unrepentant sin and be thrown into hell. Paul's second letter to the church in Corinth (2 Corinthians) reveals that the man repented, which is the best outcome.

 

[Candidus]

When Christ died for our sins all of them were still in the future.

None of our future sins existed when Christ died. You can build a tower of presumption upon some flawed human logic, but you cannot show in Scripture that such is true.

We are told that if we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, that is, a Lawyer. Now if all your future violations of the law were already paid for, then you would never need an Advocate. The Judge is already satisfied. The fact that Jesus is the Advocate for the believer (1 Jn. 2:1) is evidence enough that future sin is not already covered.

Paul makes a direct reference concerning the forgiveness of sins in Romans 3:24, 25. "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."

It is only if we confess our sins that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.1 Jn.1:9 No promise of forgiveness can be found for those that are unrepentant and walking in sin.

2 Peter 1:8-9, "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, AND HAS FORGOTTEN THAT HE WAS PURGED FROM HIS OLD SINS."

I wonder... why didn't God inspire Peter to say: "and has forgotten that he was purged from his FUTURE SINS"?

 

[Not me]

I believe that "the destruction of his flesh" meant sickness and/or death.

Hi, I do agree, I think these are different words putting forth the same truth;

“they are to be buffeted with all unpleasant things”...

So to Him do we look for all good things..

A fellow looker, Not me

 

[marks]

The dude @Not me was talking about was not accepting that chastening, but hardening his heart and resisting it. If he was accepting the chastening as you described there would be no issue. He wasn't. He was continuing in sin... Was enjoying it... Preferring it.

I think that's what's happening just before the chastening. At least that's been my experience. Not enjoying. Not preferring, but stuck.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The wages of sin is death. That is non-negotiable.

He who is born of God does not sin. The one in open rebellion is not a son.

Willful sin brings death; spiritual death. So, chastening is not about willful sin and rebellion. Nothing in the context of Hebrews 12:7-10 speaks of willful sin, open rebellion or anything close to that. As we walk with God, He reveals things to us that become "sin." An example would be smoking. No law in the Bible specifically forbids it. I may be comfortable as a Christian smoking. I knew a man who smoked after he became a Christian. for 10 years. One morning during prayer, God revealed to him that it was a sin for him to continue to do so. God chastised him, and he handed it over to God and stopped. Revealing the need to change, whether it is in Scripture or not, continues as any son continues in the faith.

The purpose of chastisement is stated, “For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness” (Heb.12:10). While chastening is not pleasurable (12:11), it has its purpose to make us holy.

OK, thank you, I think I understand now.

You parse sins into "OK" sins and "Not OK" sins.

To me, all that is not of faith is sin. There is no parsing. Either something comes from the life of Christ in me or it doesn't.

Thank you for your clarification!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I wonder... why didn't God inspire Peter to say: "and has forgotten that he was purged from his FUTURE SINS"?

Because it's the false sense of condemnation when you forget this that can stumble you out of your faith and therefore into sin. But His blood is currently cleansing us also.