OSAS Makes War with the Righteous

[robert derrick]

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.

These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

So long as Scriptural disputes are confined to prophecy, end times, millennialism, natural vs spiritual Israel, or even saved by faith alone or justified by works, then there is simple agreement or disagreement, but once any Christian begins to preach doing righteousness at all times, and being righteous as He is righteous, then the OSAS christians begin to come out with the knives and pitchforks to condemn all the doers of righteousness as self-righteous perfectionists, that are preaching against grace, the cross, and the work of Christ.

Their flagship thread is titled 'Grace-haters'.

They do not acknowledge that Christians at least ought to be doing righteousness at all times as He is righteous, and so walk as He walked, and so encourage all Christians to do so by the Spirit and grace of Christ.

No, even if they do acknowledge we ought to be walking as He walked in righteousness without sinning, they declare no Christians are doing so, nor can do so.

And if any Christian declares not only we can, but we must in order to be like Jesus, they condemn it as impossible perfectionism against grace, and anyone even thinking to do so are fallen from grace and are become proud boasting doers of the law of Christ: the law is cursed and them doing the law are cursed.

This is not just simple disagreement over doctrinal issues of prophecy, etc... nor is it simple acknowledgement that not all Christians are doing as they ought, and need exhortation and encouragement for the weak.

This is open warfare against Christians doing righteousness at all, not just at all times.

 

[mailmandan]

 

[robert derrick]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The body of Christ first began to be divided from within, by this very war of the unrighteous christian sinners made against them preaching righteous Christian saints.

Once again, this is not simply an acknowledgement that not all Christians are behaving as Christians ought, which is where exhortation, love, and spiritual restoration is led by Jesus as Head of His own body.

This is an open war against any Christian preaching righteousness of Jesus, without also including unrighteousness for the devil at the same time.

Another thread has proven that they not only cannot preach simply doing righteousness as He is righteousness, but they cannot allow it to be done without attacking it as self-righteous perfectionism, in order to justify the fact that they are still 'imperfect' sinners still sinning under grace.

This war began in the beginning of the church with the resurrection of Jesus, and it will not end until His return.

The only question is which side do we choose to stand on: are we righteous Christian saints, or unrighteous christian sinners?

It's a simple question, and not even one declaring that all righteous Christian saints will never sin again in this life, which is the boast warned against in First John, but that righteous Christian saints ought at least preach doing so by grace and power of Jesus Christ.

Unrighteous christian sinners declare that will not happen, because it cannot happen, and so is not a matter of if, but when they sin again for the devil, They will not and even cannot simply preach doing righteousness at this time, even as He is righteous, and not sinning for the devil.

Righteous christian sinners ought not say they will not sin with the devil again, which is self-righteous boasting, but neither should any Christian say they will sin again, which is the boast of OSAS.

 

[Wynona]

The Word of God is a lot tougher on sin than a lot of pastors and popular theologians are today. But its so much more beneficial.


Romans 6:13 NKJV

13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

1 Corinthians 15:34 NKJV

34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

Psalm 106:3 NKJV

3 Blessed are those who keep justice,
And he who does righteousness at all times!





Also check out 1 John 3:10 and Hebrews 12:4

 

[robert derrick]

The Word of God is a lot tougher on sin than a lot of pastors and popular theologians are today. But its so much more beneficial.


Romans 6:13 NKJV

13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

1 Corinthians 15:34 NKJV

34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

Psalm 106:3 NKJV

3 Blessed are those who keep justice,
And he who does righteousness at all times!





Also check out 1 John 3:10 and Hebrews 12:4

Honestly, it's no so much that we need to be preaching against sinning with the devil all the time.

The real enemies of the cross are them that denounce preaching and exhorting doing righteousness at all times.

For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.

If we preach righteous, holy, and blameless living by grace through and faith and fellowship of Jesus, then we don't even need to preach so much against sinning for the devil.

The problem is those who will never exhort in righteousness, without always making sure they add their usual assurances, that we will certainly also sin again for the devil with grace.

And woe betide any Christian that says otherwise. Because then comes all the real hellfire preaching of OSAS stalwarts against it.

"How DARE you suggest not sinning with the devil! Neither today nor tomorrow??? You, you BRAGGART!! You're a PERFECTIONIST!!!"

I can just hear Michael Stivic now.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Word of God is a lot tougher on sin than a lot of pastors and popular theologians are today. But its so much more beneficial.


Romans 6:13 NKJV

13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

1 Corinthians 15:34 NKJV

34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

Psalm 106:3 NKJV

3 Blessed are those who keep justice,
And he who does righteousness at all times!





Also check out 1 John 3:10 and Hebrews 12:4

the problem is people want to preach law (don't do this don't do that"

they don't want to teach love.

telling peoiple not to do something has never stopped people from doing them, If anything, it causes people to do them more. because we are a rebellious by nature people (think of a kid and a cookee jar)

Telling them how to love people and get their focus off self. now that has caused many to walk away from sin. because they do not even think of it.

Jesus called it the greatest two commandments, and he said in these are all the law and prophets fulfilled.

The problem is we have to many lawyers. and not enough disciple makers.

 

[Davy]

Our problem, i.e., all born in the flesh, still is though, we can NEVER be truly perfect while in this flesh, simply because The Scriptures have concluded us ALL under sin so that the Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ would be to those who believe (Galatians 3:22).

So there is no such thing as literal perfection in the flesh. Jesus ONLY could be perfect while in the flesh, because He is God with us, Immanuel.

Even though we are to strive... to be perfect and without sin, we will inevitably fall short of the glory of God, and will need to repent to Christ of future sin (1 John 1). And when we do repent of future sin, He is Just to forgive us, and we are then 'counted' as 'perfect'; and then it's time to get back to working for Him.

The difference with man's doctrine of OSAS, is that they go overboard with the idea of grace, to the point of not caring to check oneself for sin. And that truly is a lack of caring whether one sins or not, and is very dangerous. The ones in the extreme of OSAS deny that we ever have need to repent of sin again after our first belief on Jesus and our baptism. Thus those go directly against 1 John 1, and even the prayer Jesus gave His disciples (and us) to pray per Luke 11.

 

[Wynona]

the problem is people want to preach law (don't do this don't do that"

they don't want to teach love.

telling peoiple not to do something has never stopped people from doing them, If anything, it causes people to do them more. because we are a rebellious by nature people (think of a kid and a cookee jar)

Telling them how to love people and get their focus off self. now that has caused many to walk away from sin. because they do not even think of it.

Jesus called it the greatest two commandments, and he said in these are all the law and prophets fulfilled.

The problem is we have to many lawyers. and not enough disciple makers.

Love rejoices not in iniquity but in the truth (1 Corinthians 13:6)

Love is not just lawlessness. Jesus loves us enough to warn us from sin. Not because He withholds anything . But because sin is slavery and bondage. It leads to death.

The child tempted by the cookie jar...do we just not give the child any discipline or instruction? Can the child never have a cookie or is there a time and a place?

It is true that love covers a multitude of sins. But Holiness and righteousness are not mutually exclusive with teaching and showing Christ's love.

If my parents never corrected me or tried to tell me not to do something on the assumption that I would rebel by nature, that wouldn't be loving. It'd just be a parenting cop out.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

they don't want to teach love.

That’s the key to defeating sin.

“For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.” (Galatians 5:14-15)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Love rejoices not in iniquity but in the truth (1 Corinthians 13:6)

Love is not just lawlessness. Jesus loves us enough to warn us from sin. Not because He withholds anything . But because sin is slavery and bondage. It leads to death.

The child tempted by the cookie jar...do we just not give the child any discipline or instruction? Can the child never have a cookie or is there a time and a place?

It is true that love covers a multitude of sins. But Holiness and righteousness are not mutually exclusive with teaching and showing Christ's love.

If my parents never corrected me or tried to tell me not to do something on the assumption that I would rebel by nature, that wouldn't be loving. It'd just be a parenting cop out.

I do not think you understood me

If we see a brother or sister sin. We come next to them and help them, Disciplin may be a part of that/ That is part of discipleship relationship between peers.

When I spoke of was teaching the sinner how to love. If I learn to love, I wil not be tempted. A child who loves and respects her parent will nto be tempted to steel a cookie.. A child who is just told do not do (thou shalt not) will be tempted. Especially if she is continually told. Thou shalt not.. Because then your flesh is tempted because its always there in your face.

The church does not need to teach law. It needs to teach love. Most lawyers claim they do not have a problem with sin, and judge everyone else.. we must remember to remove the plank from our eye, before we remove a spec…

Sadly. Many can not see the plank. They are blind to it.

 

[Mink57]

Our problem, i.e., all born in the flesh, still is though, we can NEVER be truly perfect while in this flesh, simply because The Scriptures have concluded us ALL under sin so that the Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ would be to those who believe (Galatians 3:22).

So there is no such thing as literal perfection in the flesh. Jesus ONLY could be perfect while in the flesh, because He is God with us, Immanuel.

Even though we are to strive... to be perfect and without sin, we will inevitably fall short of the glory of God, and will need to repent to Christ of future sin (1 John 1). And when we do repent of future sin, He is Just to forgive us, and we are then 'counted' as 'perfect'; and then it's time to get back to working for Him.

Precisely! Heck, I sin every day. Sometimes, I realize it right away...and immediately ask God for forgiveness. Other times, I may not even recognize that I've sinned. And at the end of the day, I STILL ask God for forgiveness.

The difference with man's doctrine of OSAS, is that they go overboard with the idea of grace, to the point of not caring to check oneself for sin. And that truly is a lack of caring whether one sins or not, and is very dangerous. The ones in the extreme of OSAS deny that we ever have need to repent of sin again after our first belief on Jesus and our baptism. Thus those go directly against 1 John 1, and even the prayer Jesus gave His disciples (and us) to pray per Luke 11.

I agree.

There is a certain danger in taking a handful of bible verses and believing that's ALL we have to do. If all we had to do was to 'believe in Jesus', what would have been the point of Jesus' mission? What would have been the point of him teaching his disciples, and reciting parables for them? What would have been the point of the Sermon on the Mount?

 

[amigo de christo]

Love rejoices not in iniquity but in the truth (1 Corinthians 13:6)

Love is not just lawlessness. Jesus loves us enough to warn us from sin. Not because He withholds anything . But because sin is slavery and bondage. It leads to death.

The child tempted by the cookie jar...do we just not give the child any discipline or instruction? Can the child never have a cookie or is there a time and a place?

It is true that love covers a multitude of sins. But Holiness and righteousness are not mutually exclusive with teaching and showing Christ's love.

If my parents never corrected me or tried to tell me not to do something on the assumption that I would rebel by nature, that wouldn't be loving. It'd just be a parenting cop out.

Love does cover a multitude of sins . And notice what james says , HE who sees his brother err
and corrects him from the error of his ways has saved a soul from death and COVERED a MULTITUDE of sins .
GUESS what that means . LOVE CORRECTS . YOUR SPOT ON RIGHT SISTER .
I want to remind us all of something .
What is written in proverbs , HE who spares the rod HATES his own child .
What is written also in another place , YE shall not HATE your neighbor in your heart , you shall in any way rebuke Him
and not allow SIN upon Him . hate wont correct . But love will , for love cometh of GOD
and GOD desires none to perish , HE TOO corrects , the apostel loved and desired none to perish THEY TOO CORRECTED .
AND JESUS HIMSELF full of mercy , ALWAYS CORRECTED ERROR . SO how come today correction is seen as hating and judging
and allowing folks to remain in sin is seen as so loving . Rather odd huh . Sounds like satan has crept in
and brought into the churches a version of love that is hate and has turned the church against true agape love and the words of GOD
and calls that hate . rather odd indeed . This is why i always tell everyone , stay planted in those bibles and keep learning
and stay refreshed IN their pattern . cause its the only pattern THAT DOES WORK .

 

[Mink57]

Love does cover a multitude of sins . And notice what james says , HE who sees his brother err
and corrects him from the error of his ways has saved a soul from death and COVERED a MULTITUDE of sins .
GUESS what that means . LOVE CORRECTS . YOUR SPOT ON RIGHT SISTER .
I want to remind us all of something .
What is written in proverbs , HE who spares the rod HATES his own child .
What is written also in another place , YE shall not HATE your neighbor in your heart , you shall in any way rebuke Him
and not allow SIN upon Him . hate wont correct . But love will , for love cometh of GOD
and GOD desires none to perish , HE TOO corrects , the apostel loved and desired none to perish THEY TOO CORRECTED .
AND JESUS HIMSELF full of mercy , ALWAYS CORRECTED ERROR . SO how come today correction is seen as hating and judging
and allowing folks to remain in sin is seen as so loving . Rather odd huh . Sounds like satan has crept in
and brought into the churches a version of love that is hate and has turned the church against true agape love and the words of GOD
and calls that hate . rather odd indeed . This is why i always tell everyone , stay planted in those bibles and keep learning
and stay refreshed IN their pattern . cause its the only pattern THAT DOES WORK .

1. Because not everyone knows how to "correct" properly.
2. Because not everyone knows how to receive proper "correction."
3. Because not everyone knows when to "correct."

We say things like, "correct with LOVE", but what EXACTLY does that mean?

 

[amigo de christo]

1. Because not everyone knows how to "correct" properly.
2. Because not everyone knows how to receive proper "correction."
3. Because not everyone knows when to "correct."

We say things like, "correct with LOVE", but what EXACTLY does that mean?

It means to correct them . Its not my fault that folks dont know HOW to correct or if they do it wrong .
I say if we love folks tell them the truth . Simple .
Correct any brethren in any sin when that sin is seen and known . And always the leaders of any church
should constantly be reading all sound biblical doctrine by which the church can grow .
The truth is if most leaders of many churches would have simply preached biblical truth
Many would have repented or left . But either way the church would be kept safe and the lambs would have grown .
We need to seriously return to the bible and really get those letters the apostels wrote and the gospels
and all sound doctrine engrained on our hearts .

 

[Mink57]

It means to correct them . Its not my fault that folks dont know HOW to correct or if they do it wrong .
I say if we love folks tell them the truth . Simple .
Correct any brethren in any sin when that sin is seen and known . And always the leaders of any church
should constantly be reading all sound biblical doctrine by which the church can grow .
The truth is if most leaders of many churches would have simply preached biblical truth
Many would have repented or left . But either way the church would be kept safe and the lambs would have grown .
We need to seriously return to the bible and really get those letters the apostels wrote and the gospels
and all sound doctrine engrained on our hearts .

The problem isn't just about reading the bible, Amigo. It's about interpreting the bible correctly.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It means to correct them . Its not my fault that folks dont know HOW to correct or if they do it wrong .
I say if we love folks tell them the truth . Simple .
Correct any brethren in any sin when that sin is seen and known . And always the leaders of any church
should constantly be reading all sound biblical doctrine by which the church can grow .
The truth is if most leaders of many churches would have simply preached biblical truth
Many would have repented or left . But either way the church would be kept safe and the lambs would have grown .
We need to seriously return to the bible and really get those letters the apostels wrote and the gospels
and all sound doctrine engrained on our hearts .

The problem is we have to many pastors preaching hellfire and brimstone 20 minute sermonettes, and we have lost the ability to do a bible walk through.

If you start a book and go through it to the end, and continue to go. You will hit al the parts.. You would not have to sit there and sunday after sunday preach judgment.

The Bible is about love.. Yes their is judgment, but the gospel is about God and his love. And how he loves us so we can love others.

Judgment should be induvidual between disciples. Thats another lost art the church does not have.

And we wonder why the church is dying and so many people are leaving.. what is the use of going to a church where your an never live up to the standard they try to impose on people. And standard they can not even keep themselves (most of the time the truth of hidden sin reveals itself)
,

 

[Mink57]

The problem is we have to many pastors preaching hellfire and brimstone 20 minute sermonettes, and we have lost the ability to do a bible walk through.

If you start a book and go through it to the end, and continue to go. You will hit al the parts.. You would not have to sit there and sunday after sunday preach judgment.

The Bible is about love.. Yes their is judgment, but the gospel is about God and his love. And how he loves us so we can love others.

Judgment should be induvidual between disciples. Thats another lost art the church does not have.

And we wonder why the church is dying and so many people are leaving.. what is the use of going to a church where your an never live up to the standard they try to impose on people. And standard they can not even keep themselves (most of the time the truth of hidden sin reveals itself)
,

While my church doesn't spend a whole lot of time on sermons, *my* contention is when they preach about something in the bible, and give the sermon on a completely different subject...

...especially when that subject is about money.

 

[Enoch111]

The Bible is about love.. Yes their is judgment, but the gospel is about God and his love. And how he loves us so we can love others.

Properly balanced preaching would speak about BOTH the love of God for sinners and the wrath of God against sin and wickedness. And that is exactly what we find in John 3:14-17. More importantly those are the words of Christ Himself.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Let's say that the audience has never heard this passage from Scripture. Let's say they are all Hindus or Buddhists. So the first question that would arise in their minds is "What does 'should not perish' mean?" and "Saved from what?" If the preacher is worth his salt, he would have to present the Bible truth that sinners are saved from Hell by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and that "perish" actually means eternal damnation.

So the proper balance here is that Christ speaks of the love of God and He also gives us the reason why the only begotten Son was sent into the world. Without this balance the Gospel means nothing. The unbeliever needs to know exactly why Christ died and rose again. The unbeliever also needs to know that the whole world is guilty before God without any exceptions. Therefore all need to obey the Gospel and be saved.

 

[Enoch111]

...especially when that subject is about money.

As the old saying goes -- "Money makes the world go around". :cool:

But you are correct. No preacher has any business deviating from the actual text, and (a) going off on a tangent, (b) telling long-winded stories, (c) trying to be a comedian, or (d) trying to become an extortioner by speaking about money. And certainly not wearing jewelry worth $400,000 and then getting robbed in broad daylight because of that jewelry!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

While my church doesn't spend a whole lot of time on sermons, *my* contention is when they preach about something in the bible, and give the sermon on a completely different subject...

...especially when that subject is about money.

We teach about money when it comes up in a series, or at the end of the year when we want to have people pledge, we have a meeting where only members come.. And it is only to show where the church plans to spend the money.. not really on giving.