Overview time line chart of the 7 years

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, Christians are not appointed to go through the great tribulation.

Where does Paul say that? Nowhere. In context, what he said in 1 Thessalonians 5 was that Christians are not appointed to the wrath that will come in the form of "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" on the day of the Lord's second coming as a thief in the night.

What I suggest you do to clarify your view and points to others is to invest some time and energy to learn how to make time line charts - so you can include them in your posts. Get a program like Corel PaintShop Pro.

LOL. I don't need to clarify my view. I don't need to account for your poor reading comprehension skills. You need to pay closer attention to what is being said and maybe take a class that will help you improve your reading comprehension skills so that you don't need to rely on charts. There are no charts in the Bible, so that probably explains why you misinterpret the Bible so much.

 

[Douggg]

You response said NOTHING about the context of 1 Thessalonians 5. I showed the context of 1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 by looking at the previous verses. You said NOTHING in response to that.

My chart shows the beginning of the day of the Lord. And the timing of the resurrection/rapture.

 

[Douggg]

LOL. I don't need to clarify my view.

You sounding are like some of the patients on You Tube's Dr Now 600 lb life videos, who say "I am not fat".

There are no charts in the Bible, so that probably explains why you misinterpret the Bible so much.

There is no one in the Bible communicating over the internet either.

Get a program like Corel PaintShop Pro, from Amazon. Download it to your computer and start learning how to use to to make charts and illustrations.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My chart shows the beginning of the day of the Lord. And the timing of the resurrection/rapture.

Your chart is wrong. Paul and Peter both made it abundantly clear that on the day of the Lord mass destruction will occur from which unbelievers will not escape. Your understanding of the day of the Lord blatantly contradicts what is written in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You sounding are like some of the patients on You Tube's Dr Now 600 lb life videos, who say "I am not fat".

LOL. I don't see anyone else having trouble understanding my points. Don't blame me for your lack of reading comprehension skills, Douggg. The fact that you rely so much on charts is basically an admission that you have a reading comprehension problem and you need to see charts in order to understand things.

There is no one in the Bible communicating over the internet either.

Get a program like Corel PaintShop Pro, from Amazon. Download it to your computer and start learning how to use to to make charts and illustrations.

No. I don't need that. Don't try to tell me what to do. Douggg. The program has done you no good whatsoever. All of your charts and illustrations are full of misrepresentations of scripture.

 

[Douggg]

Your chart is wrong. Paul and Peter both made it abundantly clear that on the day of the Lord mass destruction will occur from which unbelievers will not escape.

I don't show anything on my chart about unbelievers escaping.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

This analogy is totally false. The definition of falling away from the faith is not only in perfect harmony with the rest of the text, it is also in harmony with how "ἀφίστημ" is used in classical Greek writings. It is in harmony with the only other placed it is used in the bible, Acts 21:21. It has NEVER been used as departing from some location. That is just a pre- trib invention. I suggest you research ἀφίστημ and see if it has ever been used in the way you are trying to spin it.

I will spell out the whole passage to prove it is not in keeping with the passage my friend. This is not a salvation issue, but it will stop many young people rom getting saved (I will explain at the end) and this is the only reason it is of the utmost importance to me, because people in error about the timing are still going to be in heaven because our Salvation is in the blood, through faith. (It is easier to spell out the whole passage so civil debate can ensue)

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech(ask urgently) you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

{{{ The truth is a lot of modern day people get confused at the writing style of the old English KJV. The above says this, but we modern people would start with vs. 2 first. by asking in this manner. Why are you living in fear Thessalonians? We ask you urgently because of our Rapture unto Christ Jesus that you stop living in fear. Then vs. 3 follows that logical portion of the passage.}}}

3 Let no man deceive you by any means(Paul is inferring they have been tricked into thinking they were CURRENTLY living in the Wrath of God/DOTL but he then show why they cannot be living in the DOTL): for that day(DOTL) shall not come, except there come a falling away(DEPARTURE of the Church FIRST) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

{{{ So, many people miss this double clue. It has nothing to do with the AC having to be revealed before the Rapture can happen, they I guess just have a hard time with the old English KJV writing, its never been a hang up for me. This is clearly Paul telling the Thessalonians to stop fearing they are in the Wrath of God and have thus been left behind, he uses the rapture unto Jesus as the fulcrum point of his teaching here. An in so doing he says look men, you CANNOT be in God's Wrath for 2 reasons, 1.) We the Church must DEPART FIRST.........AND........The Man of Sin/AC also must be REVEAELD, then below Paul shows what the Anti-Christ will do in full, he exalts himself above ALL THINGS, and states he is God and he will sit in the Temple as God (the IMAGE placed by the False Prophet sits there). Then in vs. 5 Paul says REMEMBER when I was with you I told you these things? Paul had explained these things in person, in full, that is why he just mentions it in passing in this "Letter" if this was meant to be a biblical scripture Paul would have explained in detail, of course.}}}

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth(The Holy Sprit stops the AC from coming forth y working through the Church) that he(AC) might be revealed in his time(During the 70th week, which can only vome AFTER the Church Departs this earth).

7 For the mystery of iniquity(Sin) doth already work: only he who now letteth will let(this means only he who BINDS will BIND until he is taken out of the way or STOPS BINDING................the Holy Spirit goes nowhere), until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,(WHEN? After the Church whom the Holy Spirit works through, is taken OUT OF THE WAY........The Holy Spirit is not taken away, that should be obvious, he remains on earth t bring the Plagues of God forth ad to save those who repent) whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

People just get things in their belief system, and its hard to break the old men's traditions. Like above, Paul says the AC sits in the Temple, however John was told these things in depth, and in Rev. 13 he was told the False Prophet will make an IMAGE of this Beast and place it in the temple of God. And in Matt. 24:15 Jesus says this things will STAND where it ought not stand, he never infers that it is a man. Thus this IMAGE can be placed by the False Prophet at the 1290, which is 30 days before the 1260 conquering by the AC. Does this timing make sense? Yes, why would God allow the AC to conquer Israel and ONLY THEN warn them to flee Judea? BUT........if a False Prophet places this AoD 30 days before Israel is to be conquered, then that gives them 30 days to flee Judea !! Paul's misunderstanding of that prophesy leads people of track a wee bit. Look to John instead who was told all these things, as was Daniel, read Dan. 9:27 it says this man (AC) will CAUSE these things to come to pass (the AoD and the taking away of the Sacrifice....which is Jesus Worship, not some profane Meat Sacrifice which would mock Jesus' sacrifice)

He doesn't need to mention faith to tell us that there must be a falling away from it before that day arrives. He does tell us in other places what will happen in the last days to the faith and this letter is in harmony with that.

Of course he does, it is not logical to speak about Gathering unto Christ as the reason he is asking them urgently not to fear unless the Church is departing is the reason they are not to fear. The Church is DEPARTING, that is why the should not fear being in the wrath, now that is logical. If your theses is right on Paul's meaning then it has to be a wrong conclusion by Paul. Because if we do not know the Day nor Hour, how could Pau tell them not to fear? According to your thesis on Paul's explanation, the Church will one day be in the DOTL thus Paul not knowing WHEN had to be telling them a fib, it was a possibility that the Thessalonians could soon be in the DOTL. (But of course Paul was speaking about a DEPARTURE of the Church as the sole reason they could never be in God's Wrath)

 

[Ronald D Milam]

CONTINUSED..............

The church will be caught up at the second coming of Jesus which happens at the last Trump in 1Cor 15 and the 7th trump in Rev 11.

The LAST TRUMP is not the 7th Trump brother, another misconception that does not fit. In Rev. 4:1 we wee Jesus sounds AS A TRUMP, that is the Rapture, just after the Church Age (Rev. 2 and 3) chapters. Let me explain, in detail, the whole history of the 7 Feasts which explains the LAST TRUMP.

Jesus must fulfill all 7 Feasts !! Jesus died on Passover right?

The 7 Feasts were God revealing unto Israel the future of all mankind, in a way they would not be able to deny at the very end of time.

The Three Spring Feasts [whch Jesus fulfilled as the Lamb of God]

1.) The Feast of Passover (Jesus died for our sins, thus fulfilling this Feast Prophesy)

2.) The Feast of Unleavened Bread (Jesus knew no sin, thus fulfilling this Feast)

3.) Feast of First Fruits (Jesus rose from the dead, defeating death and fulfilling this Feast also)

4.) The Feast of Weeks/The Summer Harvest/The Church Age/Pentecost ( Jesus is CUURRETLY FULFILLING this Feast as we speak, he is over the Church or his body of believers, he is the head, he is at the right side of God as we speak as our High Priest in heaven. His church is HARVESTING SOULS for the Kingdom now, that is our job. We are in the Harvest Season. NOTICE: the Harvest Season was always all alone on the calendar, as is the Church Age whom the Gentiles were given the mantle of Souls Harvesting for Christ Jesus. The Church Age is separate from the other 6 Feasts fulfilled by the Jews alone.

5.) The Feast of Trumps ( What always stopped the Harvest season in Israel? The LAST TRUMP, I am not kidding, this stuff is in the bible, it has to be dug out. The Feast of Trump stops the Harvest (THINK, Church Age Harvest) and no man knew the exact DAY NOR HOUR it would fall on because it was a Lunar Holiday or an appointed time by God (this is why Jesus mentioned no man could know the day nor hour, it was a HINT the Rapture would be on the Feast of Trumps, the 2nd coming is a KNOWN DATE, its on day 2520 of the 70th week or on day 1260 of the Beasts rule over Israel. Israel could never know the exact day because of the moon phases. There had to be a NEW MOON before the Feast of Trumps could begin. That could come withing a 26 hour point, but it could be on lets say a Wed. 1 hour before Sunset, on a Thursday after Sunset or on a Friday 1 hour after Sunset, so you could never know the EXACT DAY NOR HOUR the Feast of Trumps would fall on. So, Israel sent two men up into the Mountains, to watch, when they saw the New Moon they sent back word and the Trumps/Shofars started blowing. They blew in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the very LAST TRUMP (100 the Trump) the Harvest was over. So, the Jews like Paul, Peter or John understood what this meant, the LAST TRUMP always ended the Harvest Season or CHURCH AGE season. Thus Jesus is fulfilling this Feast as we speak, in Heaven, over the Harvesting of souls by his body the Church. That will all end at the LAST TRUMP, on the Feast of Trumps as we go to be with the Lord. Then God's focus will be back on Israel as the last 2 Feasts show up.)

6.) The Feast of Atonement (Who has to ATONE or REPENT before the 70th week can end according to Dan. 9:24-27? Israel of course. When do they repent? The 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 repent then the very next verse (Zech. 14:1) says the DOTL arrives !! Boom. We see in Malachi 4:5-6 that Elijah shows up BEFORE the DOTL yo get Israel to repent. We see Israel flees Judea at the 1290 which is 30 days before the 1260 DOTL. So, every Feast is a telling of the future 3000 years of world events by God. People who get it can have faith in God, I imagine the Two-witnesses will show this to Israel when they show up. Israel will be cleansed or ATONED by Jesus' blood. )

7.) Feast of Tabernacles (to TABERNACLE means to Dwell with God, and so when Jesus rules on this earth for 1000 years Mankind will be Dwelling with God and Jesus will rule from Israel, so Israel will DWELL with God/Jesus, he thus will fulfill ALL SEVEN Feasts. )

The LAST TRUMP is not a Judgment Trump brother. Its a Harvesting of Souls Trump, which ends the Harvest with Jesus (see Rev. 4:1) Harvesting the Church and thus ending the Summer Harvest Season.)

Too long, have to go see my mom who is bed ridden., finish later. Receive this in love brother, for is we do any and all things, but do not first have love, we are just wasting our time. Amen.

Will have to SPLIT POST, these 10,000 word ones always gets me by 100 words are so.

 

[shepherdsword]

I will spell out the whole passage to prove it is not in keeping with the passage my friend. This is not a salvation issue, but it will stop many young people rom getting saved (I will explain at the end) and this is the only reason it is of the utmost importance to me, because people in error about the timing are still going to be in heaven because our Salvation is in the blood, through faith. (It is easier to spell out the whole passage so civil debate can ensue)

2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech(ask urgently) you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

{{{ The truth is a lot of modern day people get confused at the writing style of the old English KJV. The above says this, but we modern people would start with vs. 2 first. by asking in this manner. Why are you living in fear Thessalonians? We ask you urgently because of our Rapture unto Christ Jesus that you stop living in fear. Then vs. 3 follows that logical portion of the passage.}}}

3 Let no man deceive you by any means(Paul is inferring they have been tricked into thinking they were CURRENTLY living in the Wrath of God/DOTL but he then show why they cannot be living in the DOTL): for that day(DOTL) shall not come, except there come a falling away(DEPARTURE of the Church FIRST) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The "Departure" is a clear reference to a falling away from the faith. I have proven that the definition you assign to it is total error. The verse clearly states that there will be a falling away from the faith and the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE that day. Stop warping the definition with a false paradigm. This is my challenge. Show one place in scripture or classical usage where "ἀφίστημι" is defined the way you are trying to spin it.

CONTINUSED..............


The LAST TRUMP is not the 7th Trump brother, another misconception that does not fit. In Rev. 4:1 we wee Jesus sounds AS A TRUMP, that is the Rapture, just after the Church Age (Rev. 2 and 3) chapters. Let me explain, in detail, the whole history of the 7 Feasts which explains the LAST TRUMP.

The 7th is the last because there are no more trumps after it. It's plain to see that they are the same because of what happens at each of them...the return of Jesus.

Jesus must fulfill all 7 Feasts !! Jesus died on Passover right?

The 7 Feasts were God revealing unto Israel the future of all mankind, in a way they would not be able to deny at the very end of time.

The Three Spring Feasts [whch Jesus fulfilled as the Lamb of God]

1.) The Feast of Passover (Jesus died for our sins, thus fulfilling this Feast Prophesy)

2.) The Feast of Unleavened Bread (Jesus knew no sin, thus fulfilling this Feast)

3.) Feast of First Fruits (Jesus rose from the dead, defeating death and fulfilling this Feast also)

4.) The Feast of Weeks/The Summer Harvest/The Church Age/Pentecost ( Jesus is CUURRETLY FULFILLING this Feast as we speak, he is over the Church or his body of believers, he is the head, he is at the right side of God as we speak as our High Priest in heaven. His church is HARVESTING SOULS for the Kingdom now, that is our job. We are in the Harvest Season. NOTICE: the Harvest Season was always all alone on the calendar, as is the Church Age whom the Gentiles were given the mantle of Souls Harvesting for Christ Jesus. The Church Age is separate from the other 6 Feasts fulfilled by the Jews alone.

5.) The Feast of Trumps ( What always stopped the Harvest season in Israel? The LAST TRUMP, I am not kidding, this stuff is in the bible, it has to be dug out. The Feast of Trump stops the Harvest (THINK, Church Age Harvest) and no man knew the exact DAY NOR HOUR it would fall on because it was a Lunar Holiday or an appointed time by God (this is why Jesus mentioned no man could know the day nor hour, it was a HINT the Rapture would be on the Feast of Trumps, the 2nd coming is a KNOWN DATE, its on day 2520 of the 70th week or on day 1260 of the Beasts rule over Israel. Israel could never know the exact day because of the moon phases.

WHAT! You are actually setting a date for the second coming? Jesus said no man could know the day or the hour. This is where your innocent misunderstanding crosses the line and gets kooky.

This is still in the context of Mt 24 and refers to the second coming. I know the Perry Stone ilk try to spin this as a rapture verse but Jesus judges his servants right after

Mt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh

The judgement of the talents in Mt 25 is the same judgement here:

Rv 11:15-18 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

There had to be a NEW MOON before the Feast of Trumps could begin. That could come withing a 26 hour point, but it could be on lets say a Wed. 1 hour before Sunset, on a Thursday after Sunset or on a Friday 1 hour after Sunset, so you could never know the EXACT DAY NOR HOUR the Feast of Trumps would fall on. So, Israel sent two men up into the Mountains, to watch, when they saw the New Moon they sent back word and the Trumps/Shofars started blowing. They blew in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the very LAST TRUMP (100 the Trump) the Harvest was over. So, the Jews like Paul, Peter or John understood what this meant, the LAST TRUMP always ended the Harvest Season or CHURCH AGE season. Thus Jesus is fulfilling this Feast as we speak, in Heaven, over the Harvesting of souls by his body the Church. That will all end at the LAST TRUMP, on the Feast of Trumps as we go to be with the Lord. Then God's focus will be back on Israel as the last 2 Feasts show up.)

I know all of this as I believed it for years. The 7th Trump is the end of the harvest. It correlates with the harvest in Rv 14. The last trump in 1 Cor 15 is also the same as the 7th trump in Rev 11. There are no more trumps after the 7th in revelation and Jesus returns at both. I have had to cut out too much to meet the limit. When that happens it's best to say that we agree to disagree. I doubt either one of us will ever persuade the other. I know I will never go back to the pretrib view I held as a baby Christian.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't show anything on my chart about unbelievers escaping.

That wasn't my point. My point is that your chart doesn't accurately show that the day of the Lord is a 24 hour day during which, at some point, Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and will bring "sudden destruction" upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape". You stretch the day of the Lord out beyond a 24 hour day, which scripture never does. You also include events as part of the day of the Lord that scripture never does.

 

[Douggg]

That wasn't my point. My point is that your chart doesn't accurately show that the day of the Lord is a 24 hour day during which, at some point, Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and will bring "sudden destruction" upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape". You stretch the day of the Lord out beyond a 24 hour day, which scripture never does. You also include events as part of the day of the Lord that scripture never does.

The day of the Lord is not a 24 hour day. It extends into eternity. And has several segments to it.

 

[Douggg]

My point is that your chart doesn't accurately show that the day of the Lord is a 24 hour day during which, at some point, Jesus will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night and will bring "sudden destruction" upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape".

When does the your 24 hour view of the day of the Lord begin, relative to the great tribulation ?

What starts the great tribulation ? And What ends the great tribulation ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The day of the Lord is not a 24 hour day. It extends into eternity. And has several segments to it.

Your words are meaningless without scriptural support. Show me the scripture which describes the day of the Lord as you understand it. Show me where scripture indicates that it "has several segments to it" and that it "extends into eternity".

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You have to force your paradigm into the text because that's not what it says. It's the sign of the son of Man comes right after the Sun is darkened. "
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" is extended to vs 30.

Well, lets see what fits via all of the evidence, I don't just guess, if I am relaying something on here, I have studied it in full my friend. Just as I stated, how can the Darkness fall and then Jesus immediately return when the 1st Woe lasts 5 months? What most who are not prophecy wonks like me do not get is prophesy over a long period, has to be condensed, else it would take a vast library to hold all the detailed info. The bible is God's way of reaching mankind, He doesn't want us to read through endless details to get the gist of the story. I will prove with Zech. 14:1-2 and then vs. 3 that it has the exact same JUMP IN TIME as Matthew 24:29-30. Lets delve into it.

In Zech. 13:8-9 (My fav. chapter, yes I an odd prophesy guy, but its a KEY CHAPTER and I can show later how prophesy can jump back and forth over 2500 years, at the end) we see that 1/3 of Israel repents or 5 million as we now see, because we know there are 15 million Jews on earth. So in the next chapter..... we see the DOTL arrives, just after the 1/3 of Israel repents. In vs. 3 the THEN.....is a 1260 day JUMP in time.

Zech.14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then (1260 days later) shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Lets be clear now, verses 3-4 and on is the 2nd Coming of Jesus right? And verses 1-2 is the AC/Beast conquering Jerusalem on the DOTL right? So, in vs. 3 when it says THEN....that is a 1260 day JUMP IN TIME because God in prophetic lingo does not have the space to fill in every detail in history !!So we get jumps in time like this. Now lets see if Matt. 24:29-30 matches these verses in Zechariah 13, lets see if we should get a similar jump in time.

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days(It does not say AFTER they end or AFTER THEY BEGIN, we have to deduce that by using logic) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall(Well where do we see this at? In Rev. 8 right? Before the 3 Woes even start) from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then (Just like vs. 3 in Zechariah says THEN before the 1260 day JU,P IN TIME, we now ger AND THEN.....and then, means a 1260 day jump in time, if we use proper, sound logic here) shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

God does not need to tell us the goings on between Zech. 14:2 and 3 nor in between Matt. 24:29 and 30, He tells us those things in the book of Revelation. Thus we have to read them over there, God is not redundant per se when its not needed. Lets see how vs. 29 matches Rev. 8. But first, people have to be able to grasp Rev. 6 is a Prophesy about the soon to come Judgments in Rev. 8, there are NO JUDGMENTS in Rev. 6. So, on to Rev. 6.

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The above is the DOTL being prophesied as SOON TO COME, the below is that prophesy being fulfilled. Seals did what? Seal up information. Thus the above shows Matt. 24:29 matches the DOTL God Wraths starting point to a tee, not the 2nd coming. So, there are still three woes left to come, so Jesus cannot come back IMMEDIATEY AFTER this event, but the Sun and Moon do go dark IMMEDIATELY AFTER this event. I do not just guess on prophesy, I do the grunt work.

As per Zech. 13, its an END TIME PROPHESY, but it can confuse people because within that very prophesy about the Fountain of Blood that Atones the end time Jews/Israelis, we see in verses 6-7 a Prophesy about Jesus and his brothers betraying him. Many thus say, this prophesy was not about the end times, but Jesus' time, and they get everything out of whack. It is a double prophesy, about the end time, bit God dynamically throws in anther prophesy about Jesus death and his bloods atoning power in the midst, it was given 2500 years ago about TWO SEPERATE EVENTS, one 500 years into the future, the other 2500 years into the future, and they are conjoined in that the end time Jews will be atoned by the one the forsook in verses 6-7, by Jesus' blood, only God could have put two events in the future into one passage like that. So, prophesy take a different type mind to see, some men are called to it because they can see these things, other are called unto other things because maybe they have more patience with the elderly etc. etc.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Yes, it COULD be an asteroid impact or other natural phenomena. Then again it could be a totally super natural judgement. We cannot know for sure until it happens. Forcing all of this into the text is that old "Late great planet earth" paradigm invented by Hal Lindsey.

I read him in the 70s, I enjoyed it but he was TOO EARLY to understand the full ed time things. We are not, we are in the very end times. I was shown and told in a vision in 1986 that "The Man of Sin is Here" then shown Jimmy Swaggart was about to fall from grace. My forte/calling is the Prophetic Bent. I can explain the whole book of Revelation in one post. People overthink it for the most part. Its just encoded with Old Testament Phraseology/passages.

I do not force anything, if you knew me you would laugh at that yourself. I was told this in 1986, did I start writing books, guessing etc. etc. way back then? No, we could not know until it was TIME, until the end times came, as Dan. 12 says, it was going to be locked up. I understand God's voice and if He is silent, then He is silent. And on all these things He was pretty much silent unto I had my heart attack in 2016 and slowed down. Then in prayer one night, I asked the lord, Lord why is it we have hundreds of interpretations on Babylon, the 144,000, the Harlot et al, at there can only be one answer? And He was like Ron, you guys already know it all.

From that point on I understood we were allowing old Men's Traditions to sway us to the point God could not overcome our mindsets. So, I promised God that any contradiction I saw from that point on, no matter how small it was, I would do the simple things I did with the Gospels, just say God show me what this means, and ever since He always shows me, because I refuse to move on until He shows me, because I know He wants to now show us all things, I wrestle like Jacob. For instance, there is no such thing as 144,000 Jewish Preachers its made up fantasy. There really isn't even 144,000 Jewish Men, its a CODE for ALL Israel who repents. Why? Because God was never going to give Satan the true number 2000 years ago, that is why He says in Zech. 13:8-9 that its 1/3. I cannot understand how people can grasp that the 10 Virgin Brides are not 10, nor virgins in reality, nor all women, they represent ALL Christendom as the number 10 = Completion, and the church has both makes and females of course, but yet they can not see the 144,000 as a code. Likewise, the number 12 = Fulness and the number 10 = Completeness. Thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or ALL Israel who repent, as in Fulness x Completion. Notice, in the Old Testament God saved Himself 7000 men. Well, 7 = Divine Completion and 10 = Completion, so the 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 7000 is the exact some thing, God lingo. Until on grasps the codes God uses they will never understand the book of Revelation, nor Daniel in full.

The Pre Trib. Rapture stuff is elementary to me, that is a given. The hard stuff is the 1290 and 1335, well it was hard. The Red Dragon = Satan this he has 7 CROWNS (he's over this whole world) The Beast in Rev. 12 has 10 CRWOWNS on the 10 Horns (COMPLETE E.U. its was never 10....we have to know God lingo) and thus he is over the E.U. and conquers Israel and THE MANY (The whole Mediterranean Sea Region, NEVER the whole world, hat is just bad Eschatology and logic). Finally the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17 has NO CROWNS anywhere, because he is Apollyon, but he was a King of the Bottomless Pit and thus an 8th king in God lingo, who was of the 7. The Roman Beast fell, he was locked up in the pit.

You can as I stated believe it as you will, but it will not change the facts brother. When God calls us home you will be going Zoom, zoom, zoom with us. I used to spend a lot of time on message boards, I backed off because no one is listening. But I get the sense that God's about to move and supernaturally bring he converts in the end times. I am slow, I cover one post at a time, lol. Its just who I am, then I have to rest.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Please, stop with the gas lighting. I am 63 years old and have been studying the scriptures for over 50 years.

I do not gaslight, do not even know what it means. You can except it or not, matters not to me brother, you will find out as soon as you are raptured because everything will become clear. When I learned to admit to God to being wrong was when He started to be able to teach me things in 2016 (had my Heart attack that year/slowed down) or so. If one thinks he's right and he is not he can never be taught those things by God. Many things I used to buy into I now see as just me listening to other men. I started questioning all things. I do not even debate the rapture any more or very rarely, its just not an issue I buy into as having any doubt. I never changed my mind. I did relook at it, and it was easy for me to see it. Rev.19 shows the Church in Heaven with Jesus returning for Armageddon. I do not like going over it because I think people ought to do their own grunt work on it, but when I speak on it I will always call it pre trib. because that is what it will be.

It doesn't say 1260 days later. It's a perfect example of what I said about you forcing your view into the text and trying to achieve victory by ad nauseum posts. No wonder we keep hitting the 10,000 word mark.

It does not have to SAY IT...........as I stated, God can not give us minutia on 2500 years of prophesy or 1260 days. We are supposed to know the DOTL lasts for 1260 days by reading Dan. 12:7. So, if Jerusalem gets sacked then Jesus will return 1260 days after that event. Trumps1-4 are an asteroid event, the FIRE is what happens when an Asteroid is breaking apart. Trump #2 describes an IMPACT, Trump #3 descries a FALLOUT that poisons the fresh waters and Trump #4 describes smoke filtering out the Sun and Moon and a blood red moon is how we see it from earth, because of all the fires it will indeed have a Red Hue to it.

As I showed in Zech. 14:2 and 3 there is a 1260 day gap, because the AC who conquers Israel rules as the Beast for 1260 days, so the THEN................correlates to 1260 days later, its God's style not mine. So, in Matt. 24:29 we know that is about the DOTL, which lasts for 1260 days, AND THEN..............1260 days later Jesus shows up. You protest I have a 1260 day gap, but I do it with proofs. Those who think of it as the 2nd Coming in vs. 29, they demand it has to be right then, without any proofs, I have proofs its not, we know the 1st Woe lasts for 5 months and the Wrath of God/DOTL lasts for1260 days. Nothing about the rapture matches anything but pre trib. Did you read my 7 Feasts Post? Can you not see God's Symmetry there? Oh well, gotta run, I don't get on these sights but once or twice a week, my moms bedridden and I spend time over there. God bless brother. By the way if debate offends we can skip it, I enjoy it, I leaned a lot from debate amongst my friends, it sharpens our swords of the spirit.

 

[shepherdsword]

I do nit gaslight, do not even know what it means. You can except it or not, matters nit to m brother, you will find out as soon as you are raptured because everything will become clear. When I learned to admit to God to being wrong was when He started to be able to teach me things in 2015 or so. If one thinks he's right and he is not he can never be taught those things by God. Many things I used to buy into I now see as just me listening to other men. I started questioning all things. I do nit even debate the rapture any more or very rarely, its just not an issue I buy into as having any doubt. I neve changed my mind. I did relook at it, and it was easy for me to see it. Rev.19 shows the Church in Heaven with Jesus returning for Armageddon. I do nit like going over it because I think people ought to do their own grunt work on it, but when I speak on it I will always call it pre trib. because that is what it will be.


It does not have to SAY IT...........as I stated, God can not give us minutia on 2500 years of prophesy or 1260 days. We are supposed to know the DOTL lasts for 1260 days by reading Dan. 12:7. So, of Jerusalem gets sacked then Jesus will return 1260 days after that event. Trumps1-4 are an asteroid event, the FIRE is what happens when an Asteroid is breaking apart. Trump #2 describes an IMPACT, Trump #3 descries a FALLOUT that poisons the fresh waters and Trump #4 describes smoke filtering out the Sun and Moon and a blood red moon is how we see it from earth, because of all the fires it will indeed have a Red Hue to it.

As I showed in Zech. 14:2 and 3 there is a 1260 day gap, because the AC who conquers Israel rules as the Beast for 1260 days, so the THEN................correlates to 1260 days later, its God's style nit mine. So, in Matt. 24:29 we know that is about the DOTL, which lats for 1260 days, AND THEN..............1260 days later Jesus shows up. You protest I had 1260 days, but I do it with proofs. Those who think of it as the 2nd Coming in vs. 29, they demand it has to be right them, without any proofs, I have proofs its not, we know the 3rd Woe lasts for 1260 days. Nothing about the rapture matches anything but pre trib. Did you read my 7 Fests Post? Can you not see God's Symmetry there? Oh well, gotta run, I don't get on these sights but once or twice a week, my moms bedridden and I spend time over there. God bless brother. By the way if debate offends we can skip it, I enjoy it, I leaned a lot from debate amongst my friends, it sharpens our swords of the spirit.

Oh I am not offended. It's just that I ask you to present any proof for your usage of ἀποστασία as the church departing from the earth in 2Th 2:3. You responded with a plethora of scriptures you have cobbled together that didn't address my question. ἀποστασία is always used as a departing from the faith in a religious sense.(Acts 21:21). In classic Greek literature we don't find any religious usage. However, we do see it used in a political sense. It always means to rebel or revolt in that sense. What is your justification for the definition you assign to it?

 

[Douggg]

Zech.14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then (1260 days later) shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Hi Ronald,

I realize that you are explaining your interpretation of Zechariah 14:2-4.

Here are two charts. The first is of Zechariah 14:2-4. The second shows the 45 days placement during the 7 years.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Oh I am not offended.

Great to hear, some people do not understand Paul and Peter went at it, debated, and that is how they resolved issues at times. I think we should look more to John on prophetic lingo, because Paul was not given that gift per se, John was. I think in letters Paul gave his interpretation of Dan. 9:27, and Matt. 24:15, but I think John was given the full details. So, when Paul says he (AC/Man of Sin) will sit in the temple, I do not per se agree with that (he might....but not at the 1290 AoD). That one sentence/verse now has everyone believing the AoD can only be the AC/Beast when in truth he is only allowed to go forth conquering 30 days later at the 1260 middle of the week events (DOLT/God's Wrath falls).

So, that is how important proper interpretation is, we have to get it right. Was Paul 100% correct on this? No, because we know the AC can not go forth conquering until day 1260 (this is also why knowing what the 1290 and 1335 are is so very, vert important) and the 1290 happens 30 days before the 1260 event. It is used by God to warn the 1/3 or 5 million Jews who repent to flee Judea unto the Jordanian Mountains. We can see in Matt. 24:15-17 that Jesus seems to point to this being an IMAGE that stands where it ought not to stand. And in Rev. 13 John is shown with clarity that the 2nd Beast (False Prophet) gets the peoples (the 2/3 Jews who refuse to repent) to make AN IMAGE of the first Beast (AC/Little Horn) and to place it in the temple. So, the AoD is committed by the False Prophet not the AC who can not conquer Israel until the 1260, which comes 30 days later. So, Israel gets a 30 day window to flee Judea. Can't you see the logic in that? Most can, but still say, WELL..........I always believed this way and Paul says it is so. Well, John said different and it fits, Jesus REVEALED this t John and in Matt. 24:15 Jesus sees to says its an item that is placed in the holy place that defiles it, not a man.

Point being, just a minutia off and we can go down wrong paths. Satan Adam & Eve, "you will not surely die" but of course he is a liar and puts forth half truths.

As I stated in my old blog, the First Seven English Translations had DEPARTURE not FALLING AWAY. So, what type of departure makes more sense in the context? Paul saying, he you can never be in the DOTL God's Wrath because the DEPARTURE from the FAITH must happen first. Well couldn't that have started in one month? Or in one year? Since Paul does not when the 2nd coming is, how could he tell them with a straight face not t worry about being in the DOTL God's Wrath? The one you guys who are not Pre Trib. insist we must go through. Because if we do (I don't think we do, of course) then that Wrath/DOTL could coke at any time according tom God right? No man knows the exact hour nor day according to Jesus. So how could Paul tell the Thessalonians they would not go through the wrath of God IF you guys theory is correct? If that wrath had started in one month. or one year then those Thessalonians would indeed have been in that Wrath or in the DOTL right? So, that thus was never what Paul was saying, or he would have told them that in more detail, and made it clear that Jesus was worth dying for, after all he knew he was going tom die for Jesus at some point in time, Jesus had told them this would happen unto all of them but John the Revelator. The Departure of the Church could only miss this WRATH if they were going tom DEPART before the Wrath comes.

There are 100s of other passages that prove a Pre Trib. Rapture. The ones the post trib guys use are all misinterpreted passages like 2 Thess. 2. I can go through every one point by point and overcome the logic used, but one has to be willing to see or they won't see. The passage by Paul simply said DEPARTURE, the KJV shifted it to be talking about FAITH, the passage is pretty clear, its about the Rapture, verse 1vsays so.

Another verse use is the Wheat grows together with the Tares until the end. Jesus came only to Israel, the Wheat = Israel, the Tares = the World. Israel is protected by God in the Petra/Bozrah area, the Church is in Heaven, we are the Barley which is harvested first. In Rev. 14 we see the Three Harvests !! The 144,000 are THE WHEAT they are waiting on the 2nd Coming of Jesus t be harvested. In verses 17-20 we see the Wicked Grapes (Tares) are Harvested and they are killed and we know they will only be judged 1000 years later right? (2nd Resurrection) so that means it matches the tares shall be bound and BURNED at a later date. So, where is the Church at? Jesus from UPON a CLOUD Harvests the Church, but in Rev. 14:14 God gives us our first Cinematic FLASHBACK (LOL) because putting all three Harvests in one chapter mandates a flashback in time by 7 years, or else they can't be in the same chapter.


Just point out any point that you have on the reasons why the Rapture has to be anything but Pre Tribulation and I can point out why these misconceptions have taken root. Just like Zech. 14:2 and 3 have a 1260 day Gap (you must admit this right?) and thus Matt. 24:29 and 30 also have a 1260 day gap and HAS TO HAVE AT LEAST........a 5 Month Gap because the 1st Woe lasts for that long, then add in Woes #2 and 3. Things have to fit brother, we can not have things that do not fit the timeline.

Here is the truth, God jumbled up Revelation on purpose. once I decoded the whole book of Rev. I saw things clearly. Until we can see Revelation and the Chronological Order that it is in, we can't see the true timing of everything. God Bless.

 

[shepherdsword]

Great to hear, some people do not understand Paul and Peter went at it, debated, and that is how they resolved issues at times. I think we should look more to John on prophetic lingo, because Paul was not given that gift per se, John was. I think in letters Paul gave his interpretation of Dan. 9:27, and Matt. 24:15, but I think John was given the full details. So, when Paul says he (AC/Man of Sin) will sit in the temple, I do not per se agree with that (he might....but not at the 1290 AoD). That one sentence/verse now has everyone believing the AoD can only be the AC/Beast when in truth he is only allowed to go forth conquering 30 days later at the 1260 middle of the week events (DOLT/God's Wrath falls).

So, that is how important proper interpretation is, we have to get it right. Was Paul 100% correct on this? No,

Paul was 100% correct. The problem is with your interpretation. You are overstepping here.

because we know the AC can not go forth conquering until day 1260 (this is also why knowing what the 1290 and 1335 are is so very, vert important) and the 1290 happens 30 days before the 1260 event. It is used by God to warn the 1/3 or 5 million Jews who repent to flee Judea unto the Jordanian Mountains. We can see in Matt. 24:15-17 that Jesus seems to point to this being an IMAGE that stands where it ought not to stand. And in Rev. 13 John is shown with clarity that the 2nd Beast (False Prophet) gets the peoples (the 2/3 Jews who refuse to repent) to make AN IMAGE of the first Beast (AC/Little Horn) and to place it in the temple. So, the AoD is committed by the False Prophet not the AC who can not conquer Israel until the 1260, which comes 30 days later. So, Israel gets a 30 day window to flee Judea. Can't you see the logic in that? Most can, but still say, WELL..........I always believed this way and Paul says it is so. Well, John said different and it fits, Jesus REVEALED this t John and in Matt. 24:15 Jesus sees to says its an item that is placed in the holy place that defiles it, not a man.

Point being, just a minutia off and we can go down wrong paths. Satan Adam & Eve, "you will not surely die" but of course he is a liar and puts forth half truths.

As I stated in my old blog, the First Seven English Translations had DEPARTURE not FALLING AWAY. So, what type of departure makes more sense in the context?

It doesn't really matter who translated ἀφίστημι as departure. The usage of the word in every instance, both classical and kione define the word as an apostacy from faith or a rebellion against government. It is never used as a departure from a location. This confines the word to a departure from faith in this context.

Paul saying, he you can never be in the DOTL God's Wrath because the DEPARTURE from the FAITH must happen first.

No, that is not what he is saying. See above

Well couldn't that have started in one month? Or in one year? Since Paul does not when the 2nd coming is, how could he tell them with a straight face not t worry about being in the DOTL God's Wrath? The one you guys who are not Pre Trib. insist we must go through. Because if we do (I don't think we do, of course) then that Wrath/DOTL could coke at any time according tom God right? No man knows the exact hour nor day according to Jesus. So how could Paul tell the Thessalonians they would not go through the wrath of God IF you guys theory is correct? If that wrath had started in one month. or one year then those Thessalonians would indeed have been in that Wrath or in the DOTL right? So, that thus was never what Paul was saying, or he would have told them that in more detail, and made it clear that Jesus was worth dying for, after all he knew he was going tom die for Jesus at some point in time, Jesus had told them this would happen unto all of them but John the Revelator. The Departure of the Church could only miss this WRATH if they were going tom DEPART before the Wrath comes.

Look at the context of "wrath" in 1Th. It is clearly dealing with the lack of salvation as that is the context.

1 Th 5:9-11 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,(This is a wrath opposite of salvation, as in we have escaped eternal damnation)

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.(This is what we comfort each other with, that no matter what happens, we will live tother with him)

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.( comfort each other with this promise of life, even as you are doing in the affliction and persecution you are currently enduring 1Th 1:6)

There are 100s of other passages that prove a Pre Trib. Rapture. The ones the post trib guys use are all misinterpreted passages like 2 Thess. 2. I can go through every one point by point and overcome the logic used, but one has to be willing to see or they won't see. The passage by Paul simply said DEPARTURE, the KJV shifted it to be talking about FAITH, the passage is pretty clear, its about the Rapture, verse 1vsays so.

There are ZERO passages that prove a pre-trib rapture. Every single one can be properly translated from a post-trib/pre wrath position.

Another verse use is the Wheat grows together with the Tares until the end. Jesus came only to Israel, the Wheat = Israel, the Tares = the World. Israel is protected by God in the Petra/Bozrah area, the Church is in Heaven, we are the Barley which is harvested first.

Those who die under the AntiChrist rule and refuse to take the mark are the barley:

Rv 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In Rev. 14 we see the Three Harvests !!

No...we only see TWO harvests. The 144,000 are not harvested in ch14. Where do you see that in the text? You see, this is the problem I have with this contrivance. You are using reasoning filtered through your paradigm and forcing it into the text.

The 144,000 are THE WHEAT they are waiting on the 2nd Coming of Jesus t be harvested. In verses 17-20 we see the Wicked Grapes (Tares) are Harvested and they are killed and we know they will only be judged 1000 years later right? (2nd Resurrection) so that means it matches the tares shall be bound and BURNED at a later date. So, where is the Church at? Jesus from UPON a CLOUD Harvests the Church, but in Rev. 14:14 God gives us our first Cinematic FLASHBACK (LOL) because putting all three Harvests in one chapter mandates a flashback in time by 7 years, or else they can't be in the same chapter.

There are also verses that have the angels cutting off the wicked and leaving the righteous to remain. Let's look at the parable:

Mt 13:36-43 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Just point out any point that you have on the reasons why the Rapture has to be anything but Pre Tribulation and I can point out why these misconceptions have taken root. Just like Zech. 14:2 and 3 have a 1260 day Gap (you must admit this right?) and thus Matt. 24:29 and 30 also have a 1260 day gap and HAS TO HAVE AT LEAST........a 5 Month Gap because the 1st Woe lasts for that long, then add in Woes #2 and 3. Things have to fit brother, we can not have things that do not fit the timeline.

I am sure that whatever truth I present, can be wrested, twisted and misinterpreted into some pre-trib myth. People can be quite inventive.

Here is the truth, God jumbled up Revelation on purpose. once I decoded the whole book of Rev. I saw things clearly. Until we can see Revelation and the Chronological Order that it is in, we can't see the true timing of everything. God Bless.

This is where we end the conversation. I mean, you have decoded the entire book of revelation and now see it with a clarity that others do not. How can one possibly disagree with that? Anything said against such a position will be seen as opposing God's light to you.

We can agree to disagree. We have both wasted too much time on something we will never agree on.