Patriotism - Un-Christlike Philosophy

[Purity]

Purity,

You and I seem to define a couple of things differently. Defense is not vengeance, it is defense. Vengeance is premeditated after the fact.

A vengeful spirit or a defensive spirit can be one and the same. Any form of retaliation which aims to justify one own actions toward another can be vengeful - - the greatest example of this is the Apostle Paul who not once retaliated at the injustice shown him.

There is a right recompense for sin, but this lies with God. “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord” (Rom. 12:19).

What you will find in any of your scenario's is a person, or persons are committing a sin against God Himself and while you may indeed seek to apply the offence to us be it some harm or even brutality - the sin is toward God alone.

If you do not understand this principle how can you understand Rom 12:19?

Purity

BTW He who seizes the weapons of vengeance usurps the authority of God....plain and simple

 

[Secondhand Lion]

A vengeful spirit or a defensive spirit can be one and the same. Any form of retaliation which aims to justify one own actions toward another can be vengeful - - the greatest example of this is the Apostle Paul who not once retaliated at the injustice shown him.

There is a right recompense for sin, but this lies with God. “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord” (Rom. 12:19).

What you will find in any of your scenario's is a person, or persons are committing a sin against God Himself and while you may indeed seek to apply the offence to us be it some harm or even brutality - the sin is toward God alone.

If you do not understand this principle how can you understand Rom 12:19?

Purity

BTW He who seizes the weapons of vengeance usurps the authority of God....plain and simple

I do understand Romans 12:19, and I agree with it. You seem to intentionally keep skipping my points. I will ask plainly:

Do you stop your kids from touching the hot stove? Why?

When they start to fall...Do you reach out to catch them?

SL

 

[Purity]

I do understand Romans 12:19, and I agree with it. You seem to intentionally keep skipping my points. I will ask plainly:

Do you stop your kids from touching the hot stove? Why?

When they start to fall...Do you reach out to catch them?

SL

Protecting a child from a hot stove cannot be likened to a patriot taking up arms to kill his neighbour.

Maybe you have lost the direction of this thread.

Patriotism whether it is taking arms to defend a people or to overthrow a power is vengeance regardless of how you may want to sugar-coat it - its in direct opposition to Rom 12:19.

Purity

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Protecting a child from a hot stove cannot be likened to a patriot taking up arms to kill his neighbour.

Maybe you have lost the direction of this thread.

Patriotism whether it is taking arms to defend a people or to overthrow a power is vengeance regardless of how you may want to sugar-coat it - its in direct opposition to Rom 12:19.

Purity

Purity,

First you accuse me of "having to give extreme examples" about firearm ownership and use...missing completely that my firearms would only be used in that extreme of a circumstance. So, I give you a much more simple analogy that is the exact same in principle, and you revert back to patriotism. It is about protecting your children. If I kill the man killing my daughter with a baseball bat...do I still get accused of being a patriot? How about a stone?

Now you go back to patriotism, which I asked you in the beginning to specify. Please explain how owning a firearm makes one a patriot. Please also explain why you think owning a firearm means you are going to kill your neighbor. Please explain how the firearm is evil, by itself. Also please note...my firearm has never gone and killed anyone...and I don't even keep it in a safe, a box, or even on a leash. I keep them right on my end tables.

I, again, agree with you that patriotism is largely a un-Christlike Philosophy. Please explain what in the world that has to do with owning a firearm. You tied it directly to firearm ownership. I can do all those things you explained with any item. Torch or pitchfork anyone?

SL

 

[Purity]

Purity,

First you accuse me of "having to give extreme examples" about firearm ownership and use...missing completely that my firearms would only be used in that extreme of a circumstance. So, I give you a much more simple analogy that is the exact same in principle, and you revert back to patriotism. It is about protecting your children. If I kill the man killing my daughter with a baseball bat...do I still get accused of being a patriot? How about a stone?

Now you go back to patriotism, which I asked you in the beginning to specify. Please explain how owning a firearm makes one a patriot. Please also explain why you think owning a firearm means you are going to kill your neighbor. Please explain how the firearm is evil, by itself. Also please note...my firearm has never gone and killed anyone...and I don't even keep it in a safe, a box, or even on a leash. I keep them right on my end tables.

I, again, agree with you that patriotism is largely a un-Christlike Philosophy. Please explain what in the world that has to do with owning a firearm. You tied it directly to firearm ownership. I can do all those things you explained with any item. Torch or pitchfork anyone?

SL

SL,

Owning a firearm does not make you a patriot maybe you were reading into my words this leap of logic. The question is rather "do Patriots who fight for their country take up arms?"

Now what I am saying is not new - God Himself sees the issue very clearly and I am staggered more Christians here cannot lay down their patriotic mindset and say "yes, firearms are associated with patriotism and defending ones country and yes this is not in the Spirit of Christs teaching"

Not hard really....and as I said "I have owned a firearm and once went shooting a lot as a young man and while I don't do it today the principle that firearms and patriotism go hand in hand, remains .

We are talking about the Hope of Israel are we not?

For out of Zion shall go the law,and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
[SIZE=80%]4 [/SIZE] He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples;
[SIZE=80%]q[/SIZE]and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks;
[SIZE=80%]r[/SIZE]nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Do you understand this above prophecy and its future fulfilment?

Purity

 

[Secondhand Lion]

Purity,

Okay, we finally mostly agree. I am sorry if I misrepresented anything you said or were trying to say. I seemingly got confused with the statistics of suicide and murder being thrown in the mix.

Yes. Patriots normally take up arms to defend their country. As I stated, the same can be accomplished with any item, so the problem is actually the heart attitude, not the weapon. Many have defended their country using nothing more than stones.

Yes, as much as is possible, I understand the prophecy.

 

[Purity]

Purity,

Okay, we finally mostly agree. I am sorry if I misrepresented anything you said or were trying to say. I seemingly got confused with the statistics of suicide and murder being thrown in the mix.

Yes. Patriots normally take up arms to defend their country. As I stated, the same can be accomplished with any item, so the problem is actually the heart attitude, not the weapon. Many have defended their country using nothing more than stones.

Yes, as much as is possible, I understand the prophecy.

Yes I like how you said a heart issue / attitude.

I don't pretend to know the boundary where defending oneself becomes a sin in Gods eyes - He judges justly not I...I am however conscious of the command which we are under and by no means can I see physical violence being the answer.

[SIZE=80%]23 [/SIZE][SIZE=80%]c[/SIZE]When Jesus was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.

No greater example in my humble view.

Purity

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

.

Firearms are very restricted in Japan so Tomohiro Katō used a truck to run over 3 people and then used a dagger to stab another 12 people in the street during the Akihabara massacre

 

[kjw47]

Not just for future--but for now living in this satan ruled world as well. It is happening by those who learn Jesus' truths and apply them daily.

 

[Purity]

.

Firearms are very restricted in Japan so Tomohiro Katō used a truck to run over 3 people and then used a dagger to stab another 12 people in the street during the Akihabara massacre

Somewhere along this discussion you missed the point being made.

[SIZE=80%]23 [/SIZE][SIZE=80%]c[/SIZE]When Jesus was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.

It matters not the weapon just some make it a great deal easier.
Purity

 

[teamventure]

Somewhere along this discussion you missed the point being made.

[SIZE=80%]23 [/SIZE][SIZE=80%]c[/SIZE]When Jesus was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.

It matters not the weapon just some make it a great deal easier.
Purity

Purity may i ask a question away from all the gun debate? do you believe Satan is the god of this world like those scriptures provided?

 

[Purity]

Purity may i ask a question away from all the gun debate? do you believe Satan is the god of this world like those scriptures provided?

The notions of a supernatural being which many Christians apply to the Word do not have their origins in the Divine mind but in the creative imaginations of man throughout a very long a checked history.

I am always willing to discuss these matters in an amicable manner with any who enquire.

Purity

 

[teamventure]

well thanks for the quick reply and answering my question. which leads me to another question, do you believe the entire Bible is the 100% accurate word of God?

 

[Purity]

well thanks for the quick reply and answering my question. which leads me to another question, do you believe the entire Bible is the 100% accurate word of God?

Correct.