So, a guy that learnt karate for self defence will die by a bouncers hands?kjw47 said:
That verse applies to a guy who uses a gun as part of his everyday life, like a gangster.
There is a fine line between tempting God / stupidity and faith.
Patriotism - Un-Christlike Philosophy
- Thread starter Purity
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That verse applies to a guy who uses a gun as part of his everyday life, like a gangster.
There is a fine line between tempting God / stupidity and faith.
I put my faith in God. He will make me shoot straight and gave me the mandate as a Father to protect my family. What kind of example do you expect me to be to my children of who God is? Your earthly father is the first person that a child has in their life that represents their Heavenly Father. God protects us, gives us common sense, and helps us shoot straight in defense of our family.kjw47 said:
Just for the record...I have never had to use a firearm in defense of my family. God has protected us and I trust He will continue, but who am I as a father and defender of my family if I allow harm to befall them? God does not guarantee anywhere that absolutely no bad will come your way.
Try not to be so heavenly minded that you are no earthly good. Thanks for being another Christian who is there for us to point out just how little faith we have and how we should be living instead...really...its a lost art....just can't find that anymore in a person from the church.
SL
Defense is one thing--being sent to another country to kill someone unknown to one is just murder.
Jesus, apostles, Christians didn't fight back against the( romans- They were true enemies of God.)
Owning a gun kind of makes it pre meditated.
There is a fine line as well if one is a true follower as well--Matt 7:21-23)
Jesus, apostles, Christians didn't fight back against the( romans- They were true enemies of God.)
Owning a gun kind of makes it pre meditated.
There is a fine line as well if one is a true follower as well--Matt 7:21-23)
Merely owning a firearm does not make it premeditated in any way or under any circumstance. God does not expect me to allow my family to be the victim, that is what He put me there for. I have never made the argument and you will never hear or see me make the argument that a firearm should be used in any way other than defense of my family. I won't even defend my property with a firearm, you may feel free to steal anything you want from me....except my family.kjw47 said:
I agree, there is a fine line.
SL
I have four.Secondhand Lion said:
Regardless of the circumstances Lion the truth you teach is justifying oneself; no longer is it "vengeance is mine saith the Lord...I will repay". you teach the vengeance is in the eye of the beholder. Theres much you need to learn about the God of Israel.
The David & Abigail account is a good example:
Nabal for his insult and cruelty to David and his men, if carried out, would have caused David to sin against the Lord and His people. God preserved David from shedding innocent blood (a major theme in 1 Sam. 24–26 but perhaps most obvious in 1 Sam. 25) through the swift and wise intervention of Nabal’s wife Abigail, a woman described as “beautiful” (lit. “lovely in form,” the same phrase describing Rachel in Gen. 29:17 and Esther in Esth. 2:7) and good in understanding (2 Chr. 30:22; Ps. 111:10; Prov. 13:15; see also Abigail). Sensing the impending disaster that would come after Nabal repaid David’s good with evil (1 Sam. 25:10, 11), a young man in Nabal’s household came to Abigail explaining the praiseworthy behavior of David and his men (vv. 15, 16) and imploring her to right the wrong of her husband (vv. 14, 17). As a godly wife, Abigail was first responsible to God, then to her husband. Thus she acted with speed to prepare generous supplies for David and his men with the hope of intercepting them enroute. Encountering the angry army of 400 men, Abigail courageously demonstrated wisdom, respect, and submissiveness as she admonished David not to avenge himself and blot his career with blood guilt (vv. 26, 28, 30, 31). She reminded David that he was the Lord’s anointed, fighting the Lord’s battles, and thus under God’s protection (vv. 28, 29). David’s teachable spirit, illustrated both by his listening to Abigail’s words as well as his heeding her advice, is admirable here. David honored Abigail by stating that she had been sent by the Lord to keep him from sin (vv. 32–34). As a responsible wife, Abigail returned to her husband and at an appropriate time told him all she had done, willing to accept any possible consequences. God demonstrated to David that He is faithful to avenge wrong in striking Nabal dead (v. 38).
Like I said the only means to taking up weapons is when God sanctions it as being His Will.
Truth of these matters hurts.
Purity
Lets look at the first verse.kjw47 said:
Can you show me where you get a supernatural god like being from "the prince of this world?"
My bible says--- the ruler of this world is coming) this is Jesus warning us that satan will be cast from heaven to the vicinity of the earth along with his angels( demons). Gods word teaches--he will come as a devouring lion, angry, knowing his time is short. This already occurred--rev 6--first ride of white horse.
Yikes. Who said anything about vengeance? You kind of just poofed that into the conversation. Can you show me where I typed anything about vengeance? I believe I typed out the words defense and protection a number of times.Purity said:
You are getting into a whole different conversation. I have also stated many times that the a firearm is not to be used as the aggressor. Just the defender. I would not ever go "hunt down" anyone who hurt my family as an afterthought. (I hope) That is a completely different set of circumstances and a completely different conversation and a completely different conversation with my children about how to handle something in a Christlike manner that is now past.
So, if I am walking down the street...and I pass an alley where some person is doing or is going to do physical harm to you that is going to end or drastically alter your life and I posses the means by which to stop him...you want me to keep walking? How about the same scenario with one of your children? It is only me, my firearm, and a belief God would have me help you in that moment...you want me to keep walking?
SL
Any act of aggression must be seen as vengeful behaviour, whether in defence or retaliation.
vengeance noun synonyms retaliation, avengement, avenging, counterblow, reprisal, requital, retribution, revanche, revenge related words return; repayment; revengefulness, vengefulness
But lets test your scenario.
Here is the OT law:
Lev 19:16 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, so thou shalt not bear sin on his account. 18 And thy hand shall not avenge thee; and thou shalt not be angry with the children of thy people; * and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; I am the Lord.
We are still under command not to retaliate with force.
Rom 12:19
Pro 20:22
Rom 12:17
1 Peter 3:9
Pro 6:34
1 Sam 25:26
1 Sam 25:31
1 Sam 25:33
Psalm 8:2
Human reasoning will aim to conjure up the most severe scenarios to test these divine principles and every time God is proven to be right - that's why He has appointed a day of vengeance.
Purity
I asked you to show me your supernatural god from John 14:30?
How does "the prince of this world?" = Supernatural being ruling in a place of darkness?
If you cannot explain something you believe and teach you need to ask why it is you believe it?
Let me explain the context of the passage so you are not delusion of what is being taught.
John 12:31
“Judgment of this world” = This Jewish “Kosmos”.
“Prince of this world” = The Jewish rulers. John 14:30; I Cor 2:7-8.
“Be cast out” - “Ex-ballo” = “Eject”. Same word Matt 21:12; Lk 13:28
John 14:30
“Prince Of This World” = Jewish and Roman authorities (John 12:31; 1 Cor 2:7-8) were on their way - time is urgent! (Mark 14:42) “Betrayer is at hand”
“Nothing In Me” – cp Dan 9:26 mg: “and have nothing”. Unlike the disciples they were not “in him” and he had nothing in common with them. They found nothing to accuse him!
Comment:
You used a Scripture to teach falsehood because you are a babe in the Word and you have not been taught how to handle it correctly. I say this not to puff myself up but rather admonish you to go on in humility and learn of him.
Cast out your preconceived notions which are there through the many hurtful lusts experiences by your early church fathers; they did not open the Word to obtain light but to obtain the praises of men...they have their reward.
Don't fall into the same snare - study to show yourself approved of God.
Purity
The supernatural god you are talking about-- is in control of govts, Hollywood,music, corporations, false religionsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss, some celebrations. etc---that is why Jesus taught his followers to be no part of this world.
Its clear you do not listen - not to me, but the Word of God. No acknowledgement of John 12:31 & John 14:30 in your reply reveals a lack of sincerity to find truth .kjw47 said:
Let me know when you become teachable
Purity
I take that answer as a "I want you to keep walking".Purity said:
Your points are well taken. However I must point out that even in your synonyms attempt....none of them were defense related. I could go verse for verse with you on scripture, but at this stage of the conversation, I do not believe you are willing to change your viewpoint. That is fine, maybe even wonderful. I think you would probably just tell me how I didn't seem to understand the scriptures, and maybe you would be right.
Thanks for your time and your viewpoint. I don't think I will be agreeing anytime soon, but I will not dismiss the possibility that I could be wrong. I just do not comprehend how anyone could think God would not expect us to defend those who can not defend themselves. God can change my heart, I know this. Maybe someday I will believe its okay for people to shed innocent blood also and not try to do anything to stop it.
SL
Thanks SL.Secondhand Lion said:
I admit its a difficult subject - Patriotism, Weapons and Vengeance, but I believe they are all closely related. I think it ultimately comes down to God will. God commanded the Israelites to destroy whole nations in what today would be called ethnic cleansing, and we know it was right! God can never be wrong - love that!
What separated David from Joab was he experience blood-lust and lacked mercy, while the other hand David still had blood on his hands but was a merciful king...although at times still capable of avenging himself (sin).
You already do my fellowlabourer.
1 Peter 2:22-23
He (Jesus) committed no sin nor was deceit found in his mouth. When he was maligned, he did not answer back; when he suffered, he threatened no retaliation, but committed himself to God who judges justly.
Would you and I have acted like Peter and thrust the sword through every soldier with the view of taken him down from the cross alive? Can you find any scenario which speaks more completely to an innocent than the Lord himself?
The truth is that God stores up vengeance and has a very good memory of what was done to His Son and his other children.
AD 70 was just the beginning of His just jugdments - the controversy He has with the nations and how they have treated His people Israel will not be pretty SL.
God Takes Vengeance against His Enemies
1:2 The Lord is a zealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and very angry. The Lord takes vengeance against his foes; he sustains his rage against his enemies. 1:3 The Lord is slow to anger but great in power; the Lord will certainly not allow the wickedto go unpunished.
Do you believe "the Lord will certainly not allow the wicked to go unpunished"
I do
I must inform you that I am not a mindless individual .Purity said:I was waiting for some mindless individual
(hand on forehead in disbelief)
I did not challenge the validity of your statistics
All I did was warn you not to be deceived by them
Take suicide for example ....
In 1988 there were 521 suicides using guns in Australia
In 2011 there were 135 suicides using guns in Australia
Suicides by guns was reduced by 74%
Sounds wonderful ...... Trouble is .....
In 1988 there were a total of 2179 suicides in Australia
In 2011 there were a total of 2272 suicides in Australia
In other words suicides actually increased slightly
Gun bans did not reduce the suicide rate in Australia
But your graphs , and post tried to imply they did
People are easily suckered by the use of statistics in an inappropriate manner
All I attempted to do was point that out
I often find some people cannot handle the truth. I hope you are not one of them Purity , I have nothing personal against you.
I do not like homicide or suicide , but I do not blame mechanical devices as the cause .
That would be the same as blaming Lumber and Nails for the crucifixion
............
Some of the worst abusers of statistics are the lung associations and anti-smoking groups ... it is pure propaganda .... here is how they do it ...
Out of 14 smokers twice as many people will die of cancer compared to 14 non-smokers (technically true)
But they try to make it sound like a 100% increase in death rates
Here are the real statistics without playing games with the numbers
Out of 100 non-smokers 13 will die of cancer (13%)
Out of 100 smokers 14 will die of cancer (14%)
That is a 1% increase ... pretty small actually.
Best wishes
It is not a difficult subject and killing nations was not ethnic cleansing.Purity said:
Vengeance is wrong. Self defence, both being prepared and acting pre-emptively if required are fine.
Every Christian is supposed to help the afflicted. Now how do you take care of someone like Hitler without weapons? When all nations have Christian leaders we can discuss disarmament.
Prov 25:26 like a trampled spring and a polluted well is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked.
Both spots in John is talking about satan. I have studied Gods word for years. I became childlike( teachable--years ago)
Arnie...you do realise you quoted statistics don't you?Arnie Manitoba said:
And the fact still stands that firearm suicides have reduced, yeah?
I am not concerned at the length of time you have studied - I have seen nothing from you to suggest your learning has been profitable in these two passages.kjw47 said:
Your understanding of what satan represents is not that of scripture - I have shown you the correct interpretation of both passages - do you have anything else which you base your theory on?
A word of advice - you might want to study the passage before posting
Jesus taught--- return evil for evil to no one. He showed by example how far one needs to go. So did the Apostles, Christians who were thrown to lions and such. They didn't fight back. They showed love. They listened to Jesus--Love your enemy.
Vengeance is mine said the Lord. This is Gods will.
I know it is not easy--- the only way-Matt 16:24---Few can.
Vengeance is mine said the Lord. This is Gods will.
I know it is not easy--- the only way-Matt 16:24---Few can.
Of course I quoted statistics .... the true ones .... not just a "select few" that the anti-gunners usedPurity said:
I am sure that if we banned rope and extension cords , suicide by hanging would drop as well
The suiciders would simply use something else.
Bottom line is suicides actually increased slightly ,
386 less people used a gun but 479 more people used other methods
Restricting guns did not lower the suicide rate.
It is as simple as that
So your statistics are true and correct while mine are corrupt? OK!Arnie Manitoba said:
The simple fact that firearm deaths have reduced is simply proven by the facts...but these facts are not of interest to you as your confirmation bias is to uphold weapons and their abusive use.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
So lets discuss the positive of patriotism - that is Christian Patriotism.
Lets read Romans 9:1-5
Purity,Purity said:Thanks SL.
I admit its a difficult subject - Patriotism, Weapons and Vengeance, but I believe they are all closely related. I think it ultimately comes down to God will. God commanded the Israelites to destroy whole nations in what today would be called ethnic cleansing, and we know it was right! God can never be wrong - love that!
What separated David from Joab was he experience blood-lust and lacked mercy, while the other hand David still had blood on his hands but was a merciful king...although at times still capable of avenging himself (sin).
You already do my fellowlabourer.
1 Peter 2:22-23
He (Jesus) committed no sin nor was deceit found in his mouth. When he was maligned, he did not answer back; when he suffered, he threatened no retaliation, but committed himself to God who judges justly.
Would you and I have acted like Peter and thrust the sword through every soldier with the view of taken him down from the cross alive? Can you find any scenario which speaks more completely to an innocent than the Lord himself?
The truth is that God stores up vengeance and has a very good memory of what was done to His Son and his other children.
AD 70 was just the beginning of His just jugdments - the controversy He has with the nations and how they have treated His people Israel will not be pretty SL.
God Takes Vengeance against His Enemies
1:2 The Lord is a zealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and very angry. The Lord takes vengeance against his foes; he sustains his rage against his enemies. 1:3 The Lord is slow to anger but great in power; the Lord will certainly not allow the wickedto go unpunished.
Do you believe "the Lord will certainly not allow the wicked to go unpunished"
I do
You and I seem to define a couple of things differently. Defense is not vengeance, it is defense. Vengeance is premeditated after the fact.
Innocent blood does not include someone who is in the process of hurting or killing "my neighbor". "My neighbor" in that scenario is the "innocent blood". I must admit, your question is a good one. I have to admit, I probably would have done the same thing Peter did because I am as slow to understanding as Peter was. I hope if the time comes that God expects me to lay down my firearm because His purpose is greater in my witness (laying down my life when I could fight), I will do it.
Your argument seems contradictory to me. I am sure you are a good parent, I would never question that until I know for sure about a person. I am also sure that you have (as a good parent) taught your kids to not touch the hot stove. When they went to touch the burner anyway...did you stop them? Why? When they start to fall down...do you try to catch them? Why? When something comes flying toward your eye...do you blink? God put the self preservation instinct and defense of our children instinct into us as deeply as anything we know...we just act...we don't think about it....we simply act. You protect them from the harm that comes their way. I find it hard to believe you allow them to fall and then explain to them how that was simply God's will.
Please allow me to relate a story:
There was a man (we'll call him Sam) in his house, and a flood was coming. A friend of his drove up to his house and told Sam to pack some things and get into his car and they would get out of there. Sam told his friend "No, the Lord is going to save me, I have faith". His friend drove away. The flood got worse. Sam was on the second floor of his house. A boat comes by. The man in the boat says, "You have to get into the boat and get out of here!". Sam says, "No, the Lord is going to save me, I have faith". Finally Sam was on the very top of his house. A helicopter hovers over head and screams down to Sam, "You have to leave or you are going to die! Get onto the helicopter!". Sam screamed back "No! the Lord is going to save me! I have faith!"
Sam died
He went to heaven and asked the Lord, "Lord, why didn't you save me? I told everyone you would, I had faith you would, and you just let me die and didn't save me." The Lord replied, "Sam, I sent you a car, boat and helicopter...what more did you want?"SL
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