Paul’s very clear warning about today’s #1 disastrous doctrine

[michaelvpardo]

I got as far as this.

ALL sinners will NOT be allowed into the city of New Jerusalem.

We're talking about ALL habitual unrepentant sinners.

Ditto for being in the Book of Life.
ALL sinners will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev 21:7-8).
There are other condemnations of ALL sinners.
Most were written to the churches!

WARNINGS which God's elect (chosen ones) will heed, which is why they are the elect.
The ones who cannot SEE the warnings in Scripture for some reason
... still have a chance ... by hearing the Holy Spirit and following Him.

Those who choose to reject the warnings (written and spiritual) are NOT elect.

The river of the water of life doesn't end in the city. See Ezekiel chapter 47.

 

[OzSpen]

I would respond thusly ... NONSENSE!

Just for starters ... James says faith without works is dead (useless).
There I go again, putting words in brackets.

The famous Ephesians 2:8-9 says nothing about your favorite word "alone"!
It doesn't even guarantee this grace will last until death, which it must do ... or NO eternal life.
More specifically, you MUST endure in the faith until the end of your life ... or NO eternal life.
Again, want to see the 10 NT passages that teach this?

Zachary,

With your assessment of what I wrote as 'NONSENSE' does not convey meaning when you don't describe and defend what is nonsense.

James 2:18 (ESV) states, 'But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works'.

The fact is that James teaches that genuine faith is demonstrated 'by my works'. Faith that is not followed by works (that James discusses in James 2) is not the real thing.

So faith, not demonstrated by works, is DEAD. Works do not cause faith; works are the result of true faith. That's what the Bible teaches in James 2.

You accused me of stating that Eph 2:8-9 says nothing about 'alone'. But then you have the audacity to state that in these 2 verses, 'It doesn't even guarantee this grace will last until death'. Where do these 2 verses reach that conclusion of yours?

Oz

 

[tom55]

Zachary,

With your assessment of what I wrote as 'NONSENSE' does not convey meaning when you don't describe and defend what is nonsense.

James 2:18 (ESV) states, 'But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works'.

The fact is that James teaches that genuine faith is demonstrated 'by my works'. Faith that is not followed by works (that James discusses in James 2) is not the real thing.

So faith, not demonstrated by works, is DEAD. Works do not cause faith; works are the result of true faith. That's what the Bible teaches in James 2.

You accused me of stating that Eph 2:8-9 says nothing about 'alone'. But then you have the audacity to state that in these 2 verses, 'It doesn't even guarantee this grace will last until death'. Where do these 2 verses reach that conclusion of yours?

Oz

What about the atheist who do the SAME good works as Christians? They don't have faith; they only have works.

What about a person who is physically incapable of doing the works but has faith in their heart, mind and soul?

Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying

 

[OzSpen]

What about the atheist who do the SAME good works as Christians? They don't have faith; they only have works.

What about a person who is physically incapable of doing the works but has faith in their heart, mind and soul?

Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying

Tom,

My topic was not the good works of the atheist, agnostic, secularist or non-Christian. They clearly do good works in the community.

My topic was dealing with the demonstration of genuine faith. If genuine faith is not followed by good works (which result from that genuine faith) then it is useless faith. That's James' message throughout James 2:14-26 (NLT):

14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
18 Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
19 You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God.[f] Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. 20 How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
21 Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete. 23 And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.”[g] He was even called the friend of God.[h] 24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
25 Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road. 26 Just as the body is dead without breath,[i] so also faith is dead without good works.

It should be obvious what James is discussing. He hits the nail on the head on a few occasions in this passage:

• '14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?'
• '17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless'.
• v. 18, 'I will show you my faith by my good deeds'.
• v. 19, 'Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?'
• v. 20, 'How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?'
• '22 You see, his [Abraham's] faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete'.
• '24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone'.
• '25 Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions....'
• '26 Just as the body is dead without breath,[i] so also faith is dead without good works'

We could take v. 24 right out of context and make it say what it does not say:

'24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone'.

James 2:24 confirms and summarises what James 2:14-26 teaches: Those who have genuine faith (like that of Abraham and Rahab) will demonstrate that faith by the actions that they do. This is an example of what is happening to Compassion International's blockage of sponsorship (good works) for 150,000 deprived Indian children:

An international Christian charity has said nearly 150,000 Indian children will be worse off if restrictions on foreign funding force it to cease its operations in the country next month.
Lobbying by US politicians including the former secretary of state John Kerry has so far failed to convince the Indian government to relax financial restrictions on Compassion International, which says it sends about $50m (£40m) in humanitarian aid to India each year.
The group, which funds charities that operate more than 500 child development projects in the country, says it has had $3.5m of aid blocked each month since March, when it was placed on list of organisations requiring “prior permission” to bring in funds from overseas.
It is scheduled to pull out of India by 15 March, at which point many of its child development centres – which have already scaled back services such as a free meals programme – will shut (The Guardian, 3 February 2017).

Why has this happened? This article from The Guardian stated: 'The number of foreign-funded organisations operating in India has reportedly shrunk by nearly half in the past two years amid a crackdown by the government of Narendra Modi and his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata party'.

Why do organisations that promote genuine Christian faith bother to engage in ministry among the poor and oppressed of India. They do it in obedience to James 2:14-26 and Matt 25:31-46.

My wife and I have had to withdraw our money from sponsoring 2 Indian children because of this prohibition in India.

Christians do these actions to demonstrate they have genuine faith. If the actions do not follow genuine faith, it demonstrates the faith is dead, useless, not the real thing.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

What about a person who is physically incapable of doing the works but has faith in their heart, mind and soul?

Tom,

There are some people who may be physically incapable of doing certain manual and other work. Why can't they put something towards sponsoring an underprivileged child? How about helping an immigrant family with learning to speak English? I know physically incapable women who help others to learn to sew.

You possibly don't know this, but I have major heart disease that prevents my mowing the lawn, using the whipper snipper, and even vacuuming my 4-bedroom house. I need help with this. My son, who lives an hour north of me, trims my shrub in front of the house from time to time. It has become so difficult for me to do these things that I have recently engaged my government's My Aged Care organisation to get people to help me with domestic duties and house maintenance.

That doesn't prevent my wife and me using our limited cash to sponsor 2 children. We have very restricted income. That does not prevent us from sponsoring children with Compassion International.

I don't know why you are making physical incapacity a hurdle for doing good works. There is a plethora of actions that any genuine Christian believer can do to demonstrate their genuine faith.

Oz

 

[tom55]

Tom,

My topic was not the good works of the atheist, agnostic, secularist or non-Christian. They clearly do good works in the community.

My topic was dealing with the demonstration of genuine faith. If genuine faith is not followed by good works (which result from that genuine faith) then it is useless faith. That's James' message throughout James 2:14-26 (NLT):

It should be obvious what James is discussing. He hits the nail on the head on a few occasions in this passage:

• '14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?'
• '17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless'.
• v. 18, 'I will show you my faith by my good deeds'.
• v. 19, 'Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?'
• v. 20, 'How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?'
• '22 You see, his [Abraham's] faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete'.
• '24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone'.
• '25 Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions....'
• '26 Just as the body is dead without breath,[i] so also faith is dead without good works'

We could take v. 24 right out of context and make it say what it does not say:

'24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone'.

James 2:24 confirms and summarises what James 2:14-26 teaches: Those who have genuine faith (like that of Abraham and Rahab) will demonstrate that faith by the actions that they do. This is an example of what is happening to Compassion International's blockage of sponsorship (good works) for 150,000 deprived Indian children:

Why has this happened? This article from The Guardian stated: 'The number of foreign-funded organisations operating in India has reportedly shrunk by nearly half in the past two years amid a crackdown by the government of Narendra Modi and his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata party'.

Why do organisations that promote genuine Christian faith bother to engage in ministry among the poor and oppressed of India. They do it in obedience to James 2:14-26 and Matt 25:31-46.

My wife and I have had to withdraw our money from sponsoring 2 Indian children because of this prohibition in India.

Christians do these actions to demonstrate they have genuine faith. If the actions do not follow genuine faith, it demonstrates the faith is dead, useless, not the real thing.

Oz

What if I was an atheist all my life and I did no good works. I then accepted Jesus as my savior at 12:00 and at 12:30, before I could do any good works, I die.

I guess what I am saying is, would God really allow me to go to hell if I believed in Him heart and soul but didn't do any good works?

(I'm not trying to be confrontational. I generally agree with you. I am just thinking of the What if's...)

 

[OzSpen]

What if I was an atheist all my life and I did no good works. I then accepted Jesus as my savior at 12:00 and at 12:30, before I could do any good works, I die.

Tom,

If it was good enough for the thief on the cross to go immediately to Paradise, it is good enough for anyone in his/her last breath to respond in faith to Jesus.

I guess what I am saying is, would God really allow me to go to hell if I believed in Him heart and soul but didn't do any good works?
(I'm not trying to be confrontational. I generally agree with you. I am just thinking of the What if's...)

Argument from silence is a logical fallacy. It is fallacious reasoning that does not assist in reasonable conversation.

We know from Acts 16:31 (ESV) what Paul and Silas said was necessary for salvation to come to the person and the household: '“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Oz

 

[tom55]

Tom,

If it was good enough for the thief on the cross to go immediately to Paradise, it is good enough for anyone in his/her last breath to respond in faith to Jesus.


Oz

So we can be saved by faith alone since the thief on the cross did not have time to do good works? But it would have to be a special situation!!

 

[OzSpen]

So we can be saved by faith alone since the thief on the cross did not have time to do good works? But it would have to be a special situation!!

Only the Lord knows how many special situations there have been since Golgotha. That's his business. But I know it happens because it occurred for the thief on the cross.

 

[H. Richard]

I have a question. Is Paul walking after the Spirit spiritually or physically in Romans 7? He seems to be saying that he is walking after the spirit and the flesh at the same time. How can that be explained by those that say it must be one or the other?

I have had many to accuse me of having a "license to sin". But isn't having a "repentance card" that a person can use to get over their sins the same thing?

 

[FHII]

I have a question. Is Paul walking after the Spirit spiritually or physically in Romans 7? He seems to be saying that he is walking after the spirit and the flesh at the same time. How can that be explained by those that say it must be one or the other?

I have had many to accuse me of having a "license to sin". But isn't having a "repentance card" that a person can use to get over their sins the same thing?

I've always said that I don't need a license to sin, I need forgiveness for being a sinner. Nobody needs a license. They are born sinners because of what Adam did.

Besides, the whole "license to sin" is just Calvinism anyway!

 

[Zachary]

... you have the audacity to state that ...

Yes, I'm here with the audacity to state that ...

Those who are involved in habitual (unrepentant) sinning
are playing with fire, as they are gambling with their salvation!

Multitudes of NT verses WARN that OSAS is a false doctrine!

The Lord demands some accountability from His believers!
Let's just post one warning ...

Romans 8:
[SIZE=medium]12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This "debtors" business is about accountability, about co-operating with God the Holy Spirit.[/SIZE]

 

[H. Richard]

Yes, I'm here with the audacity to state that ...

Those who are involved in habitual (unrepentant) sinning
are playing with fire, as they are gambling with their salvation!

Multitudes of NT verses WARN that OSAS is a false doctrine!

The Lord demands some accountability from His believers!
Let's just post one warning ...

Romans 8:
[SIZE=medium]12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This "debtors" business is about accountability, about co-operating with God the Holy Spirit.[/SIZE]

***
Isa 53:5-6
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
NKJV

Do you believe that all your sins were laid on Jesus at the cross as this scripture states?

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, I'm here with the audacity to state that ...

Those who are involved in habitual (unrepentant) sinning
are playing with fire, as they are gambling with their salvation!

Multitudes of NT verses WARN that OSAS is a false doctrine!

The Lord demands some accountability from His believers!
Let's just post one warning ...

Romans 8:
[SIZE=medium]12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This "debtors" business is about accountability, about co-operating with God the Holy Spirit.[/SIZE]

You have responded with a red herring fallacy to what I wrote. We can't engage in a rational conversation when you pursue this kind of fallacious reasoning.

 

[tom55]

Only the Lord knows how many special situations there have been since Golgotha. That's his business. But I know it happens because it occurred for the thief on the cross.

Don't fall out of your chair.....but I agree with you.

 

[Zachary]

Do you believe that all your sins were laid on Jesus at the cross as this scripture states?

Isn't it obvious that I do NOT believe ALL of our sins (past, present, future) were taken care of on the Cross.
BTW, your Scripture does NOT say ALL iniquities (past, present, future).
IMO, the iniquities of ALL believers up to the point of receiving the Spirit were taken care of.

There are NT verses written to the churches about present repentance bringing/keeping eternal life.

 

[Zachary]

You have responded with a red herring fallacy to what I wrote. We can't engage in a rational conversation when you pursue this kind of fallacious reasoning.

Yes, I respond with the simple example of Romans 8:12-14, and you call it fallacious reasoning.
You have been grieviously deceived.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes, I respond with the simple example of Romans 8:12-14, and you call it fallacious reasoning.
You have been grieviously deceived.

I suggest that you learn the nature of a red herring fallacy HERE. There it will be explained how you presented a red herring fallacy. Giving an example from Rom 8:12-14 doesn't prevent your promoting a fallacy in your reasoning.

 

[OzSpen]

Don't fall out of your chair.....but I agree with you.

Amazing. :wub:

 

[OzSpen]

Isn't it obvious that I do NOT believe ALL of our sins (past, present, future) were taken care of on the Cross.
BTW, your Scripture does NOT say ALL iniquities (past, present, future).
IMO, the iniquities of ALL believers up to the point of receiving the Spirit were taken care of.

There are NT verses written to the churches about present repentance bringing/keeping eternal life.

I found the article, 'Do Christians have to keep asking for forgiveness for their sins?', to be helpful in understanding this topic.