Paul’s very clear warning about today’s #1 disastrous doctrine

[Heb 13:8]

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord! ’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name? ’
23Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

The law is for lawbreakers, grace is for those who believe. Also, Jesus was speaking to the crowd in His time, and this was before resurrection.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

1 Tim 1:8-11 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And in thy name have cast out devils? Diabolical possessions were very frequent in the times of Christ; no doubt but they were suffered, that Jesus might have an opportunity of showing his power over Satan, by dispossessing him from the bodies, as well as the souls of men; and of giving proof of his deity, divine sonship and Messiahship: and this power of casting out devils was given to others, not only to the twelve apostles, among whom Judas was, who had the same power with the rest, and to the seventy disciples; but even to some who did not follow him, and his disciples, Mark 9:38 and some did this in the name of Jesus, who do not appear to have any true faith in him, and knowledge of him; as the vagabond Jews, exorcists, and the seven sons of Sceva, Acts 19:13. An awful consideration it is, that men should be able to cast out devils, and at last be cast to the devil.

And in thy name done many wonderful works? that is, many miracles; not one, or a few only, but many; such as speaking with tongues, removing mountains, treading on serpents and scorpions, and drinking any deadly thing without hurt, and healing all manner of diseases and sicknesses. Judas, for one, was capable of pleading all these things; he had the gift of preaching, and a call from Christ to it, and yet a castaway; he had the power of casting out devils, and yet could not prevent the devil from entering into him; he could perform miracles, do wonders in Christ's name, and yet, at last, was the betrayer of him. These pleas and arguments will be of no use to him, nor of any avail to any at the great day. It may be observed, that these men lay the whole stress of their salvation upon what they have done in Christ's name; and not on Christ himself, in whom there is salvation, and in no other: they say not a syllable of what Christ has done and suffered, but only of what they have done. Indeed, the things they instance in, are the greatest done among men; the gifts they had were the most excellent, excepting the grace of God; the works they did were of an extraordinary nature; whence it follows, that there can be no salvation, nor is it to be expected from men's works: for if preaching the word, which is attended with so much study, care, and labour, will not be a prevailing argument to admit men into the kingdom of heaven; how can it be thought that ever reading, or hearing, or any other external performance of religion, should bring persons thither?

 

[Heb 13:8]

yes, me too, this is hard to overcome, huh?

1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Not only do all believers do the Father's will, they will all go in the rapture as well Rev 12:5. "Teknon" church/body of Christ is one in Christ.. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XXxVwpcXV0U/maxresdefault.jpg

Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 2:26-27 To the one who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father.

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

 

[bbyrd009]

The law is for lawbreakers, grace is for those who believe.

i hear this said a lot, when it strikes me as obvious that Christ was speaking to those who considered themselves "believers."
"I believe Christ came and died for my sins" will not get one to Grace; but it does make believers.

Also, Jesus was speaking to the crowd in His time, and this was before resurrection.

So, the passage is of no effect to a seeker today? Jews believed in a resurrection, too.

 

[bbyrd009]

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And in thy name have cast out devils? Diabolical possessions were very frequent in the times of Christ; no doubt but they were suffered, that Jesus might have an opportunity of showing his power over Satan, by dispossessing him from the bodies, as well as the souls of men; and of giving proof of his deity, divine sonship and Messiahship: and this power of casting out devils was given to others, not only to the twelve apostles, among whom Judas was, who had the same power with the rest, and to the seventy disciples; but even to some who did not follow him, and his disciples, Mark 9:38 and some did this in the name of Jesus, who do not appear to have any true faith in him, and knowledge of him; as the vagabond Jews, exorcists, and the seven sons of Sceva, Acts 19:13. An awful consideration it is, that men should be able to cast out devils, and at last be cast to the devil.

ya well ol' Gill might have read a bit further down, that condemnation emanates strictly from him imo:

38Johnch said to Him, “Teacher,ci we saw someonecj driving out demonsck in Your name,cl and we tried to stop him because he wasn’t following us.”cm
39“Don’t stop him,” said Jesus, “because there is no one who will perform a miraclecn in My name who can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40For whoever is not against us is for us.co
41And whoever gives you a cup of water to drinkcp because of My name,cq since you belong to the •Messiahcr — I assure you:cs He will never lose his reward.

Gill also falls into the overwhelmingly common belief that "possessions" are of "The Exorcist" variety, and imagines today, or his day, is somehow different, also, when i suggest to you that all are deceived, and this understanding is naive also. So the sons of Sceva are improperly conflated with the ones who are "not against us" in a likely improper manner, be it from a standpoint of ignorance or naivete. Surely you have already encountered someone who might be considered possessed, and it is at least likely that possession is a much more mundane thing than is usually interpreted from Scripture. Jim Bakker is likely possessed. If you are conflicted, then you are possessed. We are all possessed, ok, as uncomfortable as that may be to contemplate. Insisting upon a characterization of the possessed as all naked, raving, chain-breakers in order to fix them mentally as "other," and not possibly any of "us," is certainly more comforting, especially i guess to those crying "LordLord," but one must define those who clean their house and then are "possessed" of seven other spirits, worse than the first. And i wouldn't be trusting Gill for that, either, wadr, although he may have had the best of intentions, dunno.

We have obviously possessed people posting here, you can even see their horns. A pox on this model of possessed that separates a seeker from Scripture that would guide them, imo. If you cannot contemplate yourself as possessed in some manner, you are in denial, almost surely. "The Exorcist" characterization of the possessed is merely another facile attempt to make self superior, and Scripture is letting you, if that is what you seek. "If you then, being evil" are not possessed, then no one is, imo. We rush to include ourselves in "the chosen," and we are encouraged to believe we have achieved the Promised Land as soon as we come up out of the water, but this is a grave sin imo, the blind leading the blind.

We are counselled to avoid the Wilderness entirely, see. Freshly minted altar workers, still literally wet behind the ears, are now qualified to become pastors. And of course one may get ordained off the back of a cereal box. Imo run from anyone suggesting to you that there are passages of Scripture that no longer apply to you, or to today. The Book was not Breathed to the dead, and imo this is another sign, that can either be understood or ignored, and can be directly refuted with the Book.

But then, i am also possessed, of pride at the very least, so feel free to disregard this if you like.

 

[bbyrd009]

These pleas and arguments will be of no use to him, nor of any avail to any at the great day. It may be observed, that these men lay the whole stress of their salvation upon what they have done in Christ's name; and not on Christ himself, in whom there is salvation, and in no other: they say not a syllable of what Christ has done and suffered, but only of what they have done.

I say again--verbalizing that Jesus died for your sins and that you believe it does not avail one of Grace, even if Gill means to point to a different kind of hypocrisy. Christ Himself calls these "for us" being as how they are not "against us," so Gill is directly contradicting what Christ said, which i find kind of surprising myself, and i'll go check that his entire thoughts on the passage are reproduced here; possibly we are not reading some pertinent paragraph that would explain this.

Indeed, the things they instance in, are the greatest done among men; the gifts they had were the most excellent, excepting the grace of God; the works they did were of an extraordinary nature; whence it follows, that there can be no salvation, nor is it to be expected from men's works: for if preaching the word, which is attended with so much study, care, and labour, will not be a prevailing argument to admit men into the kingdom of heaven; how can it be thought that ever reading, or hearing, or any other external performance of religion, should bring persons thither?

So, no offense, i'm sure Gill meant well, but here in one para he seems to have gone from discussing the anointed, to the frustrated, the unrepentant, and then the prideful, and manages to conflate works and good deeds in the same paragraph. It is likely semantics are getting in the way, as i doubt that Gill is dismissing good deeds as a manifestation of Christ, so i am likely meaning to speak more to how Gill is understood rather than what he really meant, because his conclusion seems quite sound tbh.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not only do all believers do the Father's will, they will all go in the rapture as well Rev 12:5. "Teknon" church/body of Christ is one in Christ.. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XXxVwpcXV0U/maxresdefault.jpg

You are contradicting Ezekiel's "pillows" and "soft landings" with this, and listening to a late 19th century "woman" pastor, to boot.

Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So now Gill's people who are "doing" are admitted back in, even if they are maybe too prideful; unless his intent @ "the works they did were of an extraordinary nature" is not being understood correctly, by me, which is possible. Surely semantics are an issue here, even if Gill does seem to usually present the religious pov, noted @ "It may be observed, that these men lay the whole stress of their salvation upon what they have done in Christ's name; and not on Christ himself, in whom there is salvation, and in no other: they say not a syllable of what Christ has done and suffered, but only of what they have done," which can be understood to be dichotomous when placed next to ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven," the usual interpretations of "well, believing on the Lord is doing the Father's will" notwithstanding. The point being that you must have good deeds to be saved, and granted you should not be overly proud of them, but give any glory to God.

No doubt Gill would clarify this @ the many passages that discuss "doing" as a necessity, as he is generally a good comment on at least the water reading of Scripture, but i note in most any comment of his you might find some improper conflation such as the one making those in Mark 9:40 = the sons of Sceva.

Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 2:26-27 To the one who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father.

Rev 12:1-5 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman (Israel) clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She (Israel) was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon (Satan) with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon (Satan) stood in front of the woman (Israel) who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child (teknon the church) the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

 

[bbyrd009]

13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.”
14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
15One day the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?”
16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

my guess is that these are obviously not naive or ignorant of how to follow Christ, but have simply rejected Him, in a manner that those in Mark 9:40 are not guilty of. At least Christ's treatment of them is certainly markedly different. But i am kind of at a loss here, and surprised that Gill would make such an obvious blunder, so now i suspect that i am misrepresenting something, i'll go have a slog and see. Would you equate the Mark 9:40 guys with the sons of Sceva?

 

[bbyrd009]

5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

this is strictly wishful thinking, and even goes against Scripture where Christ tells us that He must return to the Father, in order to send the comforter. The first child is as likely to be a seeker as the second, and you have added "(huios Jesus Christ himself)," even if i am inclined to believe that also--that does not make it true, and that is adding to Scripture imo, just like "(teknon the church)" is. These are assumptions, made to verify beliefs that are likely not true, and even condemned in other parts of Scripture. Woe to those who counsel pillows and soft landings, for those meant to experience the baptism of the Spirit and Fire.

 

[Heb 13:8]

i hear this said a lot, when it strikes me as obvious that Christ was speaking to those who considered themselves "believers."

He wasn't speaking to believers after resurrection, only to those in His time. Why would he say "depart from me" if we are sealed until death, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30.

"I believe Christ came and died for my sins" will not get one to Grace; but it does make believers.

What makes one a believer is Rom 10:9 bbyrd. Many confess with their mouth but do not believe in their heart.

So, the passage is of no effect to a seeker today? Jews believed in a resurrection, too.

That's right, otherwise Jesus is in contradiction. The resurrection hadn't occured yet. The seal of the Holy Spirit is in Acts 2:1-4 at Pentecost.

I say again--verbalizing that Jesus died for your sins and that you believe it does not avail one of Grace,

God knows who are his, it's not for you to judge. Rom 10:9

You are contradicting Ezekiel's "pillows" and "soft landings" with this, and listening to a late 19th century "woman" pastor, to boot.

9/23/17 Rev 12 great sign is coming to pass whether you're ready or not. Sadly enough, the world will not be ready. Jesus will come like a thief to nonbelievers, not believers.

Matt 24:37-41 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

1 Thess 5:1-11 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

this is strictly wishful thinking, and even goes against Scripture where Christ tells us that He must return to the Father, in order to send the comforter. The first child is as likely to be a seeker as the second, and you have added "(huios Jesus Christ himself)," even if i am inclined to believe that also--that does not make it true, and that is adding to Scripture imo, just like "(teknon the church)" is. These are assumptions, made to verify beliefs that are likely not true, and even condemned in other parts of Scripture. Woe to those who counsel pillows and soft landings, for those meant to experience the baptism of the Spirit and Fire.

Rev 12:5 is connecting the head (Jesus Christ) with the body (the body of Christ) through the rapture (harpazo). It's time to wake up. Rev 3:3.

If you study the birth of the church you will see Virgo giving birth to Jupiter in September of 2017. Jupiter is the king planet which represents Christ and also the body (the church) that is in Christ. When you become saved the Holy Spirit indwells you, and you become one with the body of Christ. God is using a birthing metaphor to describe the conception of the church 2,000 years ago, and He is also using a birthing metaphor in the end times by using the sun, moon, stars and planets. The conception of the church began at Pentecost 2,000 years ago and has been in gestation for 2,000 years up until now. Jesus Christ is the head of the church, and born again Christians are the body. The head came out of the womb when Jesus was resurrected and ascended to heaven 2,000 years ago.

When you study a natural birth of a baby being born the head comes out first, then the body. The body of Jesus Christ which is the church (Jupiter) entered Virgo's womb in November of 2016 and is in a gestation period right now. The church will be birthed in September of 2017 which will be 42 weeks in the womb (a normal gestation period for a natural birth).

 

[bbyrd009]

He wasn't speaking to believers after resurrection, only to those in His time.

Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly

so i am persuaded to disagree wadr

Why would he say "depart from me" if we are sealed until death

well, because these who thought they had the Holy Spirit that sealed them leaned upon their works rather than their deeds, is what i read. They claimed, will claim, all of the fabulous works they did in His Name, but refused "water" to those in need, and refused Grace, iow had no problem making statements such as "i do not need your forgiveness" and similar spiritually naive statements that verify the Spirit is not in them. These are the "righteous," who suffer from the unrepented sin of Job.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly

?

well, because these who thought they had the Holy Spirit that sealed them leaned upon their works rather than their deeds, is what i read. They claimed, will claim, all of the fabulous works they did in His Name, but refused "water" to those in need, and refused Grace, iow had no problem making statements such as "i do not need your forgiveness" and similar spiritually naive statements that verify the Spirit is not in them. These are the "righteous," who suffer from the unrepented sin of Job.

Works salvation is false, believers are sealed until death. The End.

 

[bbyrd009]

That's right, otherwise Jesus is in contradiction. The resurrection hadn't occured yet. The seal of the Holy Spirit is in Acts 2:1-4 at Pentecost.

yet you have no testimony of a tongue of fire resting on your head, and you have not spoken in any other languages to the amazement of crowds. How do you deal with this fact?

 

[bbyrd009]

God knows who are his, it's not for you to judge.

i judged no one; i simply made a statement in the plainest language possible, not speaking in tongues at all now, that anyone might dispute should they feel led. I speak generally because you are right, i am not qualified to judge, but at the same time we are on a forum discussing spiritual principles, and seekers are encouraged to judge themselves. I can dig up the relevant verse if you like, or BAM if you have a dispute of my statement then post it, and we will see. God knows who are His, yet many men would pretend to this ability, Christians do it all of the time, making such statements as "i am saved," or "she is saved," etc, directly against relevant Scripture, which i can also dig up if you like. "Commending each other" etc

 

[bbyrd009]

9/23/17 Rev 12 great sign is coming to pass whether you're ready or not. Sadly enough, the world will not be ready. Jesus will come like a thief to nonbelievers, not believers.

several problems here imo, first being that Christ will come as a thief to everyone, no one knows when, not even Christ, right? Followers are merely warned to be prepared if they want to be counted. Secondly, you are essentially "pointing to Christ" in the future, and telling people "there He is, over there!" wherein i am advised to ignore you with confidence. Third, you have fixed Rev 12 in time, some undetermined future date, i guess, or at least that is the standard, when several expressions within the chapter indicate past or present: "5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter" is 2000 years ago, "10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God..." also past tense, for us now, and etc.

So we are now discussing a highly allegorical Book (from a dialectic thinker, no less) as if it were filled with facts that could be physically verified, or concepts that could be treated with logic, to arrive at a solid conclusion, the popular one being that Jesus is going to ride in on a White Horse and Save You, you who surely propose to others that you are already saved, and are "the Body of Christ." which you very well might be, don't get me wrong, but then i must ask where Jesus is going to get a Body to sit the horse?

So now spiritual truths are made into allegory, when Christ really means that we are His Body, the Church, and we have His Spirit with us. I guess one could make an argument that His Soul might accomplish this task, might be an interesting discussion, not sure how i would respond there, but a point is that you might have been sold a bill of goods with this rapture thing, which is not in the Book, and direct evidence of its condemnation is. You might at least be willing to consider that you have been sold a bill of goods because it appeals to your desires, which are being used against you, and it becomes pertinent to then ask whether you gave those who taught you this any money, or if you have witnessed any money changing hands in the places where you heard this. I have the relevant verses for this if you like.

 

[bbyrd009]

Matt 24:37-41 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

these passages are better understood from a different pov, while certainly allowing one to envision pillows and soft landings should that be what they are seeking. A better perspective is likely that any individual is referred to as "two men" in a bed, or a field, and what is being referred to is the process of changing your mind, and becoming unconflicted. A progression of this concept being understood is available by googling the passage, and reading the various sermons etc on the matter, from a source other than me. You might zero in on whether "you" wish to be the one taken, or the one left? if you are not already familiar with this debate, which btw debate it is, and i am confident that no conclusion has been reached as yet, ok. I am the "two men in a field."

I am conflicted, or put Scripturally i am in a homosexual relationship, and i cannot build a temple, house, church on the Rock until one of these men has been "taken," and the other has been left. And it is i who choose which will be taken, and which left.

 

[H. Richard]

several problems here imo, first being that Christ will come as a thief to everyone, no one knows when, not even Christ, right? Followers are merely warned to be prepared if they want to be counted. Secondly, you are essentially "pointing to Christ" in the future, and telling people "there He is, over there!" wherein i am advised to ignore you with confidence. Third, you have fixed Rev 12 in time, some undetermined future date, i guess, or at least that is the standard, when several expressions within the chapter indicate past or present: "5She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter" is 2000 years ago, "10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God..." also past tense, for us now, and etc.

So we are now discussing a highly allegorical Book (from a dialectic thinker, no less) as if it were filled with facts that could be physically verified, or concepts that could be treated with logic, to arrive at a solid conclusion, the popular one being that Jesus is going to ride in on a White Horse and Save You, you who surely propose to others that you are already saved, and are "the Body of Christ." which you very well might be, don't get me wrong, but then i must ask where Jesus is going to get a Body to sit the horse?

So now spiritual truths are made into allegory, when Christ really means that we are His Body, the Church, and we have His Spirit with us. I guess one could make an argument that His Soul might accomplish this task, might be an interesting discussion, not sure how i would respond there, but a point is that you might have been sold a bill of goods with this rapture thing, which is not in the Book, and direct evidence of its condemnation is. You might at least be willing to consider that you have been sold a bill of goods because it appeals to your desires, which are being used against you, and it becomes pertinent to then ask whether you gave those who taught you this any money, or if you have witnessed any money changing hands in the places where you heard this. I have the relevant verses for this if you like.

***
I would like to say here that it is written the the children of God are not children of wrath. When God pours out His wrath on the world it will not be poured on God's children. So how will this be accomplished if the children are not taken out of this world before God pours out His wrath?

Rom 5:8-11
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
NKJV

 

[bbyrd009]

1 Thess 5:1-11 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

Not sure what to say here, except masters of dialectical thinking are putting spiritual principles in such a way that a logical thinker will be led to believe conclusions that do not obtain from a holistic understanding of the text. Logic was just emerging among the Greeks at this time, and don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with logic as far as it goes, it's great for determining physical things, etc, but you cannot find God with your mind, it is said. You have no "logical" demonstration for proof of God.

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,"

Lol, yet this might be perceived as what you would most like to know, is it not? Doesn't this strike you as suddenly coy, i mean why not write the date if you know it? You are being played like a fish, by a dialectical thinker, because the same perspectives existed in their day--as in Ezekiel's--and people looking for a future date are thus being essentially snubbed.

4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

here the cul-de-sac becomes revealed, when you accept a future rapture, but you cannot tell me the date. Correct? Ergo, "this day"--which is always today--will "surprise you like a thief." Note that it will not surprise you "like a _______," i don't know, like a murderer, or some other agent that foments chaos upon one directly, a rapist or whatever, but a "thief" particularly, wherein a perspective of "you won't know it until it's done, and you have already been robbed" must be contemplated. Dunno if that makes any sense.

 

[bbyrd009]

Rev 12:5 is connecting the head (Jesus Christ) with the body (the body of Christ) through the rapture (harpazo). It's time to wake up. Rev 3:3.

this is a human desire, and it def rakes in the cash, but unfortunately these people are going to be the ones waking up to discover that they have been robbed by the thief--such an apt analogy lol--because we are plainly told that the kingdom is right beside us, right now, which is why no date is needed. Completely neverminding Ezekiel's rant about pillows and soft landings, which i don't expect you to ever, everevereverever, even acknowledge the existence of.

 

[bbyrd009]

When you become saved the Holy Spirit indwells you, and you become one with the body of Christ.

"when you become saved?" Iow past tense? What happened to the "hope of salvation?"

7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

alla sudden the hope of salvation--which no one is much interested in--is turned into a certainty of salvation, that is eminently more marketable, to say the least.

"When the Holy Spirit indwells you, and you become one with the body of Christ, then you become saved" might be harder to dispute wadr.