PAUL WAS NOT IN THE BELIEVING REMNANT OF ISRAEL

[Truly]

What does it mean that God set some in the church (who is the body) "firstly, secondily and thirdly" here

1 Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1 Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Jesus, ofcourse is THE Apostle of our profession

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus

As Paul said,

1 Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Whereas here the foundation is plural

1 Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles

Similarly here

Ephes 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone

Paul said, secondly prophets, why the prophets secondly? when the prophets witnessed beforehand of Jesus Christ, and the grace that should come to us by him as Peter speaks of the same here

1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

And yet Christ in us is our hope of glory, wheras the prophets before had the Spirit of Christ in them.

Even in Acts Paul said,

24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way (Jesus is the way) which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets.

I would probably think that God would have set in the church firstly the prophets and then apostles, since Jesus was both Apostle and That Prophet Moses spake of.

Not quite sure yet why its worded that way though. Still waiting on a better understanding concerning that if there be any.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Peter said what this was................[Act 2:16 KJV] 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Joel was a prophet of Israel so how can it be applied to the body of Christ where there is neither Jew or Gentile

Quite simply the body of Christ had to start somewhere and it followed the command Jesus gave, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the earth! Jews were teh foirst members of the body of christ and Gentiles came along as well in short order.

[Act 2:40 KJV] 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Peter was warning them of coming wrath of God in the tribulation

No He was telling them to avoid the judgment Jesus declared on that particular generation! Which came to pass in 66-70AD.

First off if you want to think Pentecost was the start of the church the body of Christ you are not alone....you can think it but its not according to scripture; so we can choose to believe what we are taught or believe or align our thinking with scripture

[Act 1:8 KJV] 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus told who? He told his disciples....the body of Christ wasnt formed yet

[Act 2:3-4 KJV] 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Peter said what this was................[Act 2:16 KJV] 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Joel was a prophet of Israel so how can it be applied to the body of Christ where there is neither Jew or Gentile

[Act 2:40 KJV] 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Peter was warning them of coming wrath of God in the tribulation

[Act 2:42, 46 KJV] 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. ... 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

They were in the Temple following Peter and the apostles NOT Paul

[Act 2:47 KJV] 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

They were added to the existing church NOT forming a new church of the body of Christ

Jesus built the church not Peter nor Paul! There was no existing church. There was Judaism which is not the church. Paul accepted the church in Jerusalem as the Body, and Peter accepted the churches in the gentile lands as part of the body.

Which church are you talking about as "the existing church"? It was not Judaism- Are you saying the 11 Apostles had a different church and different body of Christ than the Gentile converts of Paul?

 

[Doug]

Quite simply the body of Christ had to start somewhere

Yes it did need to start somewhere
You can accept what I say or not...........I cant be exact but for sure it started after Paul was converted.......Paul received revelations from Jesus.............[Gal 1:12 KJV] 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.........Jesus started forming the body of Christ with Paul.......you cant find this term before Paul to whom Jesus revealed it

 

[Doug]

Which church are you talking about as "the existing church"? It was not Judaism- Are you saying the 11 Apostles had a different church and different body of Christ than the Gentile converts of Paul?

A church is a congregation, an assembly.............[Exo 12:6 KJV] 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening..........there was a church then when God brought Israel out of Egypt...............[Lev 1:5 KJV] 5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that [is by] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation............scripture calls the church of Israel the church in the wilderness........[Act 7:38 KJV] 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Now when Jesus was on earth he came to Israel only and formed his church..........this church was commanded to believe on his name, that he was their Messiah, the Son of God.......they were given the gospel of the kingdom in which they would reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years..........this is the church of God that Paul persecuted..................[1Co 15:9 KJV] 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.............this is the church in Acts that was added to; the body of Christ wasnt formed at Pentecost

 

[RenewedStrength316]

[Mar 3:28-29 KJV] 28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Jesus said that blasphemers never have forgiveness.

[Luk 12:9-10 KJV] 9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God. 10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Jesus said those who denied him before men shall likewise be denied. Jesus once again says that blasphemers are not forgiven.

[1Ti 1:13-15 KJV] 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul denied that Jesus was the Son of God (Acts 9:20-21). Paul says that he was a blasphemer.

Some say Paul was in the believing remnant of Israel. How could Paul be in the remnant when he denied Christ and was a blasphemer.

Paul was saved by the grace of God in this dispensation of the grace of God.

Doug, you’re trying to make Paul into a prototype of some new dispensation, as if his conversion created a gospel out of thin air—but Paul himself disagrees with you.

Let’s deal with the facts:


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1. Yes, Paul Was a Blasphemer—That’s the Whole Point.

> “I was a blasphemer…” — 1 Timothy 1:13
“But I obtained mercy.”



And why?

> “Because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.”



If Jesus meant every act of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would damn a man eternally, Paul couldn’t have been saved—but he was. Why? Because the “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” wasn’t just resisting truth—it was attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to Satan knowingly, as the Pharisees did.

Paul didn’t do that. He acted ignorantly in unbelief—and therefore obtained mercy.

Your error, Doug, is equating unbelief with full-light rebellion. But Jesus made a distinction:

> “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” — Luke 23:34




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2. Paul’s Conversion Wasn’t a Break—It Was the Fulfillment.

> “This is he which was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah…”
“To bear My name before the Gentiles.” — Acts 9:15
“To open their eyes… to turn them from darkness to light…” — Acts 26:18



You act like Paul was a wildcard, a new blueprint dropped from heaven. But the Scripture says:

> “He preached Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.” — Acts 9:20



That’s the same message Peter preached. The same gospel Stephen died for. The same truth Paul had once persecuted—and then embraced. So no, Paul didn’t bring a new gospel. He revealed its depths, yes. But the foundation? That was Christ crucified and risen—“according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor. 15:3–4).


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3. Romans 11 Destroys Your Argument.

You say Paul couldn’t be part of the believing remnant?

> “I say then, Hath God cast away His people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew.” — Romans 11:1–2



If Paul wasn’t part of the believing remnant, why does he use himself as the example that proves God hasn’t abandoned Israel?

He is part of the remnant. He says so. You just don’t believe him.


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4. Galatians 1: The Gospel Is Christ’s, Not Paul’s.

> “The gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man… but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” — Galatians 1:11–12



You twist this to say Paul’s gospel is different. But Paul is saying it's divinely revealed, not man-invented. It’s Christ’s gospel—not a second gospel.


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5. You’re Denying the Unity of the Body.

Paul’s message was this:

> “Whether it was I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.” — 1 Corinthians 15:11
“There is neither Jew nor Greek… for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28



You keep trying to rip the body of Christ into dispensational fragments. But God only has one flock, one Shepherd (John 10:16). Not two churches. Not two gospels. One blood. One baptism. One body.


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Final Word:

If Paul wasn’t in the remnant,
If the gospel didn’t exist until Acts 9,
If Isaiah only speaks of Israel,
If “many” excludes the world…

…then Jesus lied when He said:

> “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me.” — John 12:32

 

[Doug]

You act like Paul was a wildcard, a new blueprint dropped from heaven. But the Scripture says:

> “He preached Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.” — Acts 9:20



That’s the same message Peter preached. The same gospel Stephen died for. The same truth Paul had once persecuted—and then embraced. So no, Paul didn’t bring a new gospel. He revealed its depths, yes. But the foundation? That was Christ crucified and risen—“according to the Scriptures” (1 Cor. 15:3–4).

Paul didnt preach his gospel to the Jews who were in the believing remnant of Christ who believed on his name...............[Rom 15:20 KJV] 20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:.............however he did reason with those Jews from the scriptures that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God............[Act 17:2-3 KJV] 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ...............[Act 9:20 KJV] 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

 

[RenewedStrength316]

Paul didnt preach his gospel to the Jews who were in the believing remnant of Christ who believed on his name...............[Rom 15:20 KJV] 20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:.............however he did reason with those Jews from the scriptures that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God............[Act 17:2-3 KJV] 2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ...............[Act 9:20 KJV] 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Doug, you just exposed your own contradiction.

You said Paul didn't preach his gospel to the Jews who were in the believing remnant, yet in the very next breath, you quote Acts 9:20, where Paul preaches Christ in the synagogues—immediately after his conversion—proclaiming Jesus is the Son of God.

That is not a different gospel.

> “Opening and alleging that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead.” — Acts 17:3
That’s the cross.
That’s the resurrection.
That’s the same gospel Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:3–4 is “according to the Scriptures.”



You claim he only preached “his gospel” to Gentiles—but Romans 1:16 says:

> “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”



Jew first, Doug. Not only Gentiles.

And the clincher?

> “Whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.” — 1 Corinthians 15:11



Paul explicitly says his gospel is the same as the others who preached Christ. No separate gospels. No divided body. No dispensational shell game.

You’ve built a theology around separation—but the gospel is about union:

> “There is neither Jew nor Greek… for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28



Stop dodging the blood, brother. It unites what your system divides.

 

[Doug]

You claim he only preached “his gospel” to Gentiles—but Romans 1:16 says:

Not so to Jew and Greek

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes it did need to start somewhere
You can accept what I say or not...........I cant be exact but for sure it started after Paul was converted.......Paul received revelations from Jesus.............[Gal 1:12 KJV] 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.........Jesus started forming the body of Christ with Paul.......you cant find this term before Paul to whom Jesus revealed it

So then who were all those tens of thousands of Christians in Israel belong to if not the church or the body of christ? Paul accepted them as part of the body, why you don't is a mystery.

So according to you, only Jews who got saved after Paul started preaching got to be part of the body of christ? Who were all those prior to Paul part of? Don't say the remnant only for Paul declared He was part of the remnant and even said that in Pauls day there was still a remnant according to grace and that teh body was one comprrised of Jew and Gentile

 

[Ronald Nolette]

A church is a congregation, an assembly.............[Exo 12:6 KJV] 6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening..........there was a church then when God brought Israel out of Egypt...............[Lev 1:5 KJV] 5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that [is by] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation............scripture calls the church of Israel the church in the wilderness.

And you fell into the trap all who rely on the septuigant to understand the OT it was teh assembly in the wilderness and the 70 translated the word assembly to "ekklesia" which means an assembly and is used to call the body "the church". there were many assemblies spoken of in trhe NT that are not the church, are you going to call them the church as well? That is silly.

 

[RenewedStrength316]

Not so to Jew and Greek

Romans 1:16 doesn’t say “not to Jews.” It says:

> “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”



Paul clearly preaches the gospel to both Jew and Gentile. You can’t carve out the gospel Paul preached to exclude Israel. It’s the same gospel—Christ crucified, risen, Savior of all who believe.

Trying to separate “Paul’s gospel” from the gospel preached to Israel is a lie that fractures the body and narrows salvation. Scripture makes no such ethnic exception. The gospel is God’s power to save all who believe, Jew and Gentile alike.

 

[Doug]

So then who were all those tens of thousands of Christians in Israel belong to if not the church or the body of christ? Paul accepted them as part of the body, why you don't is a mystery

They were in the believing remnant of Israel promised the millenial kingdom

 

[Doug]

So according to you, only Jews who got saved after Paul started preaching got to be part of the body of christ? Who were all those prior to Paul part of? Don't say the remnant only for Paul declared He was part of the remnant and even said that in Pauls day there was still a remnant according to grace and that teh body was one comprrised of Jew and Gentile

wher did Paul say he was part of the remnant

 

[Ronald Nolette]

wher did Paul say he was part of the remnant

Read Romans 9-11

I am gone till Tuesday so will respond then.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

They were in the believing remnant of Israel promised the millenial kingdom

So then the Jews who received Christ as savior in the first few chapter of acts were not Christians then to you?

 

[Doug]

Read Romans 9-11

I am gone till Tuesday so will respond then.

Where in Romans 9 thru 11 does he say he is in the remnant

 

[Doug]

So then the Jews who received Christ as savior in the first few chapter of acts were not Christians then to you?

Yes they are but they believed on Christ as their Messiah and the Son of God believing Peter's preaching....they only believed that he was Messiah the Son of God and weren't in the body of Christ in this dispensation

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where in Romans 9 thru 11 does he say he is in the remnant

He gave a geneaology of himself as being of teh tribe of benjamin and it is grammatically shown he is referring to himself he is part of the remnant of Israel in the church age that is part of the body.

Eph. 2:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;


1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Romans 11

King James Version

​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom. 9:

9 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

sorry but the bible is clear, those Jews who have trusted in Jesus since pentecost are part of teh body of Christ! The remnant ended with the last Jewish saint who died before Penstecost.

 

[Doug]

He gave a geneaology of himself as being of teh tribe of benjamin and it is grammatically shown he is referring to himself he is part of the remnant of Israel in the church age that is part of the body.

Being a descendant of Abraham did not make them part of the remnant
He didnt clearly say outright he was in the remnant
grammatically saying anything isnt saying it

 

[Doug]

he is part of the remnant of Israel in the church age that is part of the body.

The remnant of Israel and the body of Christ existed together