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Featured Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Enoch111, Nov 27, 2019.

  1. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You have dug yourself so deeply into a black hole that you cannot see anything clearly any more. Keep on digging yourself deeper.
     
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  2. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    Have you noticed that you have not even provided one verse I have denied?

    You and @David Taylor keep making the claim (I assume simply trying to slander by repeating the lie), but neither of you can provide one verse I reject.

    What I reject is your interpretation of Scripture and what you carry into your interpretation.

    There is no "hole to dig". This is a Christian forum, not a Penal Substitution Theory forum. Most Christians do not affirm Penal Substitution Theory, do I suspect there is no hole being dug by my asking folks who hold the view how they actually got there from Scripture.
     
  3. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    I will ask again (for about the 5th time) and not to start an argument but for edification:

    @Enoch111 and @David Taylor have claimed that those who reject Penal Substitution Theory are rejecting Scripture. Thus far not one rejected passage has been provided as evidence or edification. As most Christians do not affirm the Theory this is an important charge that needs to be addressed.

    What verse do we (those who reject Penal Substitution Theory) reject (rather than arrive at a different interpretation)?

    The reason this is important is IF what is rejected are not actual verses but your interpretation THEN you may have elevated your theories above Scripture and yourself above God (which is a serious issue).
     
  4. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    You just did the same thing. Shame on your attitude too.

    Just stick to calmly discussing scripture, even if you have to repeat it (@David Taylor) for the benefit of others just reading threads. After all, no one is denying the bottom line that Jesus died for our sins. The rest is semantics. Personally, I agree with everybody, because everyone is just bringing out different elements to the same truth. And there is more truth than any of us know on what Jesus accomplished.

    cc: @John Caldwell
     
  5. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    Don't make me have to come over there, John!!!
     
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  6. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    I'll buy lunch. :p I'm spending the day in Charleston and it's a nice place to be.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  7. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Well-Known Member

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    In context, 1 John 1:7-10 is being written to instruct those who are already Christians. No alien sinner** was ever told to confess only and your sins will be forgiven. But instead, the alien sinner must believe John 8:24) repent (Luke 13:3), confess (Matthew 10:32-33 be baptized (Mark 16:16 live faithful unto death (Revelation 2:10). Part of this living faithful unto death for the Christian is the continued walking in the light and confessing of sins 1 John 1:7-10.

    **What I mean by alien sinner who a person who has never been in a saved NT covenant relationship with God but has always been alienated from God, always lost.
     
  8. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    What I believe we can gain in these discussions is a knowledge of how people come to different views while affirming the same passages.

    I think we all know much of each other's view (at least the "classic view" of Atonement, Penal Substitution Theory, and Substitution Theory are strongly represented in contemporary Christianity). There is also Ontological Substitution, I think the Catholic view may have some distinctions, and the Mormon understanding (which I do not know).

    The only thing there is to discuss is how we get from point A (Scripture) to point B (our view). We can't just rest on the assumption ours is the only possible view therefore it needs no explanation and all others reject Scripture.

    The edification is in the explanation. Perhaps it will be forthcoming (but given the title of the OP, perhaps not here).
     
  9. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Well-Known Member

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    1 John 1:6, 8 and 10 are not "already Christians," at least not born again Christians, and we MUST be born again of the Spirit. And if they are not born again, they may never be, and guess what? They will not be headed to heaven. Did you even read 1 John 3:5-9? That describes a true born again Christian.
     
  10. David Taylor

    David Taylor Well-Known Member

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    How can you even say this? I mean really?
    If you arrive at a different interpretation of John 1 and say that Jesus is not God do you think that would be rejecting Scripture? (Because there are people who say that).
    That actually is a false statement in many ways.
     
  11. David Taylor

    David Taylor Well-Known Member

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    Saying you don't reject a verse doesn't mean anything. If someone says John 1 does not say Jesus is God is that rejecting Scripture? ABSOLUTELY
     
  12. David Taylor

    David Taylor Well-Known Member

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    Based on?
     
  13. David Taylor

    David Taylor Well-Known Member

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    The plainly say it, why did Christ have to die?
    What on earth are you talking about?
    I hold that same position. So this is a false argument.
     
  14. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    You are just arguing to argue now, David.

    I can say that Penal Substitution Theory is not affirmed by most Christians because it is true.

    The most popular view for the 1st millenia of Christian was the Ransom view. The most popular after the 13th century was a mixture of Abelard's Moral Influence Theory and Ransom Theory (within those who held the Classic View) and Aquinas (within those who held the Latin View). Penal Substitution Theory was (and is) the most popular among Protestants BUT "Christian" does not mean "Protestant".
     
  15. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I see how that was awkward wording. What I was intending to say was to define "wrath" as "being cast into the lake of fire", as Paul wrote that Jesus saves us from the wrath to come.

    Much love!
     
  16. David Taylor

    David Taylor Well-Known Member

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    Prove it.

    So you believe RCC is Christian? Mormon is Christian? Etc... If so we might as well end talks now. It would tell me all I need to know about you and your crazy theories. You are so confused and you leave the door wide.
     
  17. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your clarification.

    IMHO what changes is not the wrath but those being saved. We are made righteous in Christ (there is no condemnation in Christ - no wrath to appease). We are rescued from the wrath.
     
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  18. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Or to say, the one view has God paying Satan, the other view has God paying Himself. And your view is that God "provided a way at great personal cost".

    ?

    Much love!

    I really do appreciate your following this through with me. This to me is Forum at it's best!
     
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  19. David Taylor

    David Taylor Well-Known Member

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    Because it was already appeased.
     
  20. John Caldwell

    John Caldwell Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe religion is Christian.

    You hold to very false teachings but I believe despite your false beliefs you are saved. Some could believe all the right things and not be saved.

    I believe all who believe the gospel are saved.

    And yes, I have friends who are Catholic yet I believe they are Christians.
     
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