Penal Substitution is NOT a “Theory”

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reformed1689

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I do not believe religion is Christian.

You hold to very false teachings but I believe despite your false beliefs you are saved. Some could believe all the right things and not be saved.

I believe all who believe the gospel are saved.

And yes, I have friends who are Catholic yet I believe they are Christians.
You are dodging the question. I've come to expect that from you. I don't hold to false teachings, you most definitely do. Though, I suspect you don't even know or understand what you actually believe since you contradict yourself regularly. I'm done with you on this topic and your heresy.
 

John Caldwell

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Or to say, the one view has God paying Satan, the other view has God paying Himself. And your view is that God "provided a way at great personal cost".

?

Much love!

I really do appreciate your following this through with me. This to me is Forum at it's best!
I enjoy discussing these things with believers.

I believe we were purchased with the blood of Chris But I do not mean this implies someone or something received a payment. Instead I believe Christ suffered the cost of our salvation.
 
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John Caldwell

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You are dodging the question. I've come to expect that from you. I don't hold to false teachings, you most definitely do. Though, I suspect you don't even know or understand what you actually believe since you contradict yourself regularly. I'm done with you on this topic and your heresy.
So you believe RCC is Christian? Mormon is Christian? Etc... If so we might as well end talks now.
I am not "dodging" the question.

I said that I DO believe a person who is a Roman Catholic can be a Christian.

(I do not know what Mormons believe, so I can only say I do not share your view that they are beyond salvation).

That is no contradiction.

I believe you teach a dangerous and false gospel. But at the same time I believe you to be a Christian - not because of your theories but despite them. The gospel makes its way past the error.

We know I reject your theories. What of my beliefs (of what I DO believe) are you claiming is false? What verses have I rejected?

You denounce me for not affirming your theories but you have not actually said anything about what I actually believe (and I have stated it several times).
 
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reformed1689

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I said that I DO believe a person who is a Roman Catholic can be a Christian.
I didn't ask if you believed that there are saved people within the RCC I believe that too. I asked if you believed RCC was Christian. And as for Mormons, they are NOT Christian. They are a cult. They also don't believe Jesus is God. You should read up on them sometime. They don't even use the Bible as their main text and they have prophets that give special revelation today and can contradict Scripture. You have a degree in theology and don't know about Mormons? Man, did you not pay attention in class?
 

John Caldwell

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Or to say, the one view has God paying Satan, the other view has God paying Himself. And your view is that God "provided a way at great personal cost".

?

Much love!

I really do appreciate your following this through with me. This to me is Forum at it's best!
Yes.
 

John Caldwell

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I didn't ask if you believed that there are saved people within the RCC I believe that too. I asked if you believed RCC was Christian. And as for Mormons, they are NOT Christian. They are a cult. They also don't believe Jesus is God. You should read up on them sometime. They don't even use the Bible as their main text and they have prophets that give special revelation today and can contradict Scripture. You have a degree in theology and don't know about Mormons? Man, did you not pay attention in class?
I do not believe any earthly organization is Christian. People are saved, not people groups.

To reference Spurgeon - people go to Hell in the lump. They are saved one at a time.

I do believe Roman Catholic doctrine is false (otherwise I would be Catholic). But for the most part I do not think their doctrine is as false and dangerous as your religion.

And no, I have not studied Mormon ism (just like you obviously have not studied Church history).
 

marks

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The plainly say it, why did Christ have to die?
If I may . . . while again reminding, I'm not settled on this issue still, and I don't have a dog in the fight.

Why did Christ have to die?

Because only death will separate me from my flesh. My own death would simply be followed by judgement, so I'd be toast, and that doesn't help me.

However . . . and this is too mystical for me to say more about . . . we are able to be brought through death safely, that is, the separation from our flesh, by being able to join with Christ in His death. In His resurrection we remain joined to Him, and so we too live, but a new kind of life.

Our death in Him, the separation of us from our flesh, can only be accomplished if He died.

When He died, all sin was put on Him, and died with Him, the Lamb of God who bears away the sin of the world.

Jesus tasted death for us, impervious to it's sting, now we don't have to taste that same taste, and though we die, we live, "he who lives and believes in Me shall never die".

@John Caldwell

Still getting it here?

Much love!
 
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marks

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@John Caldwell

So to the question on 2 Corinthians 5:20 . . .

He became sin who knew no sin . . .

Someone else brought this up before in the discussion on this point, I'm interested in your thoughts.

Why would this verse be written with the first instance of "sin" to refer to the sin offering, while the second instance could only refer to sin itself as we think of this word?

Much love!
 

John Caldwell

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If I may . . . while again reminding, I'm not settled on this issue still, and I don't have a dog in the fight.

Why did Christ have to die?

Because only death will separate me from my flesh. My own death would simply be followed by judgement, so I'd be toast, and that doesn't help me.

However . . . and this is too mystical for me to say more about . . . we are able to be brought through death safely, that is, the separation from our flesh, by being able to join with Christ in His death. In His resurrection we remain joined to Him, and so we too live, but a new kind of life.

Our death in Him, the separation of us from our flesh, can only be accomplished if He died.

When He died, all sin was put on Him, and died with Him, the Lamb of God who bears away the sin of the world.

Jesus tasted death for us, impervious to it's sting, now we don't have to taste that same taste, and though we die, we live, "he who lives and believes in Me shall never die".

@John Caldwell

Still getting it here?

Much love!
I think we have to distinguish between "our sins" as individuals and "our sins" meaning the sins of mankind (as a whole).

The writings of the ECF's (Justin Martyr, for example) can look very much like Penal Substitution Theory as they (we all) affirm the same passages. But the ECF's shared Marty's teaching about the "human family".

Penal Substitution Theory takes the position of individual sins being laid on Christ and punished rather than "our sins" as the "sins of the human family" being laid on Christ in the context of the Incarnation. (God being made man, to include sharing in our "infirmities").
 

John Caldwell

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@John Caldwell

So to the question on 2 Corinthians 5:20 . . .

He became sin who knew no sin . . .

Someone else brought this up before in the discussion on this point, I'm interested in your thoughts.

Why would this verse be written with the first instance of "sin" to refer to the sin offering, while the second instance could only refer to sin itself as we think of this word?

Much love!
I believe Christ became sin (became as sinful man) but never actually sinned. I relate this to "death spread to all, for all have sinned".

I do not believe Jesus was literally made sin (an act of disobedience to God).
 

marks

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I think we have to distinguish between "our sins" as individuals and "our sins" meaning the sins of mankind (as a whole).

The writings of the ECF's (Justin Martyr, for example) can look very much like Penal Substitution Theory as they (we all) affirm the same passages. But the ECF's shared Marty's teaching about the "human family".

Penal Substitution Theory takes the position of individual sins being laid on Christ and punished rather than "our sins" as the "sins of the human family" being laid on Christ in the context of the Incarnation. (God being made man, to include sharing in our "infirmities").
This still seems somehow lacking to me. I can't seem to see laying upon Him all of our iniquities the same as sharing in our infirmities. It seems to me to come down to the question, how exactly was my certificate of debt blotted out? Because the payment was made? That was what cheirographon and tetelestai were used for, the handwritten certificate of indebtedness, and the discharge of that dept with "tetelestai" written across it when payment was received.

I think @CharismaticLady said it well, there is more to Jesus' death and resurrection than all of this!

Much love!
 

marks

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Thanks for your clarification.

IMHO what changes is not the wrath but those being saved. We are made righteous in Christ (there is no condemnation in Christ - no wrath to appease). We are rescued from the wrath.
Diverted away from it.
 

marks

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I believe Christ became sin (became as sinful man)
Ok, so then, your thinking is that "became sin" means the same thing as in Romans 8 where it says that God sent Jesus "in the likeness of sinful flesh".

Is that correct?

Much love!
 

reformed1689

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Penal Substitution Theory takes the position of individual sins being laid on Christ and punished rather than "our sins" as the "sins of the human family" being laid on Christ in the context of the Incarnation. (God being made man, to include sharing in our "infirmities").
So then you believe in universalism. Christ died for all sins?
 

Enoch111

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Just stick to calmly discussing scripture, even if you have to repeat it...
You failed to get the memo from Caldwell. Human reasoning and speculation trump Scripture (for some at least). That's why the Lord told us not to cast pearls where they will be trampled underfoot.
 

John Caldwell

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This still seems somehow lacking to me. I can't seem to see laying upon Him all of our iniquities the same as sharing in our infirmities. It seems to me to come down to the question, how exactly was my certificate of debt blotted out? Because the payment was made? That was what cheirographon and tetelestai were used for, the handwritten certificate of indebtedness, and the discharge of that dept with "tetelestai" written across it when payment was received.

I think @CharismaticLady said it well, there is more to Jesus' death and resurrection than all of this!

Much love!
The certificate of debt was canceled.

Colossians 2:14
He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.

Rather than this being divine righteousness manifestes through the law I believe it is divine righteousness manifested apart from the law.

It was canceled noy by satisfying punishment but by a "second Adam" (a re-creation of mankind).
 

John Caldwell

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So then you believe in universalism. Christ died for all sins?
No. I believe that Christ died for human sin.

Your accusation only works under the pretence of Penal Substitution Theory.

I believe because of the Cross those in Christ will not be judged while those not will face a Christ-centered judgment.
 

John Caldwell

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Actually I studied PLENTY of church history.
You did not encounter Justin Martyer's view tending towards recipitulation, Ransom Theory as the early dominant view, Ablard's influence on the Classic view, Aquinis' reworking of Anselm's position.... Yet you expect us to believe you studied Church history?