Oh, give me a break!
This is called taking time out from the discussion to make an issue of your perceptions of me. Let's call it what it is.
Peter and Paul's witness of Water Baptism: Were they the Same?
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This is called taking time out from the discussion to make an issue of your perceptions of me. Let's call it what it is.
Now you're going to label me "hyper-dispensationalist" to quickly dismiss me?
This conversation went nowhere FAST!
Just so!
Does anyone know the origins of water baptism? Does anyone know what it meant to the Jews in Jesus' day? Why the Pharisees were SO offended at the idea that they should be water baptized?
Much love!
There is one baptism, my friend, according to Ephesians 4. Now if you think that this passage, while claiming a single baptism, actually means that there is "one of many", then your issue is with the text, not me.
If you would like to explore how it could be that there are "baptisms" mentioned in Hebrews, and that water baptism was practiced to a certain but limited extent, and how Scripture is so clear to point out that water baptism isn't what saves us, we can do that. And how all these things can harmonize together with "there is one baptism".
If you want.
Much love!
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Why don't you explain that to us and regardless of what baptism meant to the Jews in Jesus' day and why the Pharisees were so offended at the idea that they should be water baptized, "one baptism" does not mean that only one baptism exists, such as water baptism, but no Spirit baptism or Spirit baptism, but no water baptism etc..
In Matthew 3:11, we see three baptisms mentioned - As for me, I (1) baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will (2) baptize you with the Holy Spirit and (3) fire. In Luke 12:50, Jesus mentions yet another baptism - "But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished!" Of course Jesus was not distressed about water baptism, but being "immersed" into suffering, namely His sacrificial death on the cross.
When Paul wrote to the Ephesian believers about "one baptism," he was reminding them that they all served the same Lord, shared the same faith, and had experienced the same baptism. Regardless of whether or not people want to argue about which baptism that is, all believers have been placed into the Body of Christ through the Spirit’s power. The emphasis is on unity among Christians. Verse 3 says, "Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."
Not that there is only one baptism that was ever done, or that "baptism" can only be applied to one thing.
@Enoch111 @mailmandan
Yes, Jesus had a baptism of suffering, which the disciples would likewise share.
John the Baptist baptized unto repentance, but we do not do that today. John's baptism was then, witness the Ephesian believers who were re-baptized. The first Anabaptists, I guess!
Acts 19:6 "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
Someone may point to this as the Holy Spirit baptism following the laying on off hands, however, the text says, "the Holy Spirit came upon them."
Jesus' baptism in pain has been shared by some, and to some degree, by all, yet not, I think, as He was baptized. I somehow think He suffered worse. But not all suffer that way either.
When the Pharisees heard that John was baptizing in the Jordan, I expect they would have thought about their practice of baptizing gentiles who were proselytizing to be Jews, and were very offended that someone dare suggest that they were no better off before God than gentiles! Baptism was practiced by a number of cultures in those times, washing off what you were, to join the new religion, or more even to join the entire culture, there wasn't the same sort of separation we have today.
Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Interesting choice of words, is it not? Teach all nations, baptizing them . . . Why 'the nations'?
Did that have anything to do with Peter's proclamation in the temple?
Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Times of refreshing, the restitution of all things . . . And he shall send Jesus Christ!
The second coming? In power and glory? Then?
What was the OT prophecy? That through Israel the light will go to the gentiles. Now to be fulfilled in the millennium. But had the people of Israel believed, repented, converted, received their King, who had to be rejected, had to be killed, had to resurrect and ascend into heaven, and now, can return!
Why did Paul say that he wasn't sent to baptize? I think it was because he wasn't ushering gentiles into Israel, now that the Gospel was being sent directly to the gentiles.
Why did Paul say that there is one baptism? Obviously he knew of others, right? But maybe he meant there is one baptism that matters for us, and that baptism is being immersed into Jesus, in His death and burial and resurrection, a baptism that is done by the Holy Spirit, a baptism first given on Pentecost, now given as each one comes to saving faith.
Ever since I realized the significance of where Jesus said, "God is the God of the living, not the dead", I've learned to look at every last little detail of the text, knowing that I can count on it implicitly! "I AM the God of Abraham", long after Abraham had died. Jesus proved the resurrection by a single verb tense.
We all share the same baptism. We've all been baptized in the same baptism. One baptism unites us all. A single baptism makes us one. We join in a common baptism. The more I think about it, the more ways I can think of to say that we share a common baptism, but not in a way that limits the number of baptisms.
And yet this passage says, there is one baptism, and I ask, is that true? Or do we make it not true with qualifications that aren't written here?
OK, I know I'm swimming against the current . . . some things to think about just the same, I hope!
Much love!
@Enoch111 @mailmandan
Yes, Jesus had a baptism of suffering, which the disciples would likewise share.
John the Baptist baptized unto repentance, but we do not do that today. John's baptism was then, witness the Ephesian believers who were re-baptized. The first Anabaptists, I guess!
Acts 19:6 "And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
Someone may point to this as the Holy Spirit baptism following the laying on off hands, however, the text says, "the Holy Spirit came upon them."
Jesus' baptism in pain has been shared by some, and to some degree, by all, yet not, I think, as He was baptized. I somehow think He suffered worse. But not all suffer that way either.
When the Pharisees heard that John was baptizing in the Jordan, I expect they would have thought about their practice of baptizing gentiles who were proselytizing to be Jews, and were very offended that someone dare suggest that they were no better off before God than gentiles! Baptism was practiced by a number of cultures in those times, washing off what you were, to join the new religion, or more even to join the entire culture, there wasn't the same sort of separation we have today.
Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
Interesting choice of words, is it not? Teach all nations, baptizing them . . . Why 'the nations'?
Did that have anything to do with Peter's proclamation in the temple?
Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Times of refreshing, the restitution of all things . . . And he shall send Jesus Christ!
The second coming? In power and glory? Then?
What was the OT prophecy? That through Israel the light will go to the gentiles. Now to be fulfilled in the millennium. But had the people of Israel believed, repented, converted, received their King, who had to be rejected, had to be killed, had to resurrect and ascend into heaven, and now, can return!
Why did Paul say that he wasn't sent to baptize? I think it was because he wasn't ushering gentiles into Israel, now that the Gospel was being sent directly to the gentiles.
Why did Paul say that there is one baptism? Obviously he knew of others, right? But maybe he meant there is one baptism that matters for us, and that baptism is being immersed into Jesus, in His death and burial and resurrection, a baptism that is done by the Holy Spirit, a baptism first given on Pentecost, now given as each one comes to saving faith.
Ever since I realized the significance of where Jesus said, "God is the God of the living, not the dead", I've learned to look at every last little detail of the text, knowing that I can count on it implicitly! "I AM the God of Abraham", long after Abraham had died. Jesus proved the resurrection by a single verb tense.
We all share the same baptism. We've all been baptized in the same baptism. One baptism unites us all. A single baptism makes us one. We join in a common baptism. The more I think about it, the more ways I can think of to say that we share a common baptism, but not in a way that limits the number of baptisms.
And yet this passage says, there is one baptism, and I ask, is that true? Or do we make it not true with qualifications that aren't written here?
OK, I know I'm swimming against the current . . . some things to think about just the same, I hope!
Much love!
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