Peter the Rock?

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Behold

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When Catholics do "research" they are doing it with a previously determined outcome.

Lets get to the core of the problem.
When "cult of mary" members do research, they go their Priest and say..>"what is the answer"
Or...
They read "Church Fathers"...

IN other words, they don't research Christianity, they research their "cult of mary" teachings.

Catholics talk about "Mary and Peter" with the same gleam in their eye as Calvinist's talk about "Calvin" and Pagans talk about " Pan."
'
They dont read a bible.
In fact, they were not allowed to read it, until '1961.
They were told .."come to us, we will tell you".

Notice that "cult of Mary" members", refer their answers to.. : "This church father said".

And their Douay Rheims Authorized Bible is Demonic, so, that's not going to help..

They worship Mary and the Pope and Peter, and deny it..knowing they do.

They believe that water washed away their sin, which denies the Cross of Christ.

This is a very dark religion, that has their leader bowing before 30 Ft High Plastic Mary's.
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Queen of Water.jpg
 

Marymog

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Lets get to the core of the problem.
When "cult of mary" members do research, they go their Priest and say..>"what is the answer"
Or...
They read "Church Fathers"...

IN other words, they don't research Christianity, they research their "cult of mary" teachings.
Ok...let's get to the core of the problem.........Protestantism.

Protestantism IGNORES the Church Fathers and Luther, Calvin, Zwingili etc are the NEW church fathers.

In other words.......throw away Christian history BEFORE the Reformation and Christian history starts AT the Reformation.
 

Marymog

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Why is it that these discussions seem to me to always come down whether or not we should believe the simple words we read? Your church so often has it's interpretation that seems to require that I ignore the actual words of the Bible. And I'm not about to do that.

Much love!
Your church (whichever one that is) so often has it's interpretation that seems to require that I ignore the actual words of the Bible. And I'm not about to do that.
 

Behold

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In other words.......throw away Christian history BEFORE the Reformation and Christian history starts AT the Reformation.

I dont blame you for not responding to all the points i made about the people in your religion, and what they do.
After all, you'd have to find a "church father's" answer.


So, You make a mistake when you refer to the man made "cult of Mary" that created the DARK AGES as : "The Church".

See, only a Catholic would see it that way, and think that way.
That's a fact.

Here is another one for you.... @Marymog

GOD makes CHRISTians.

Catholics make Catholics.

The Pope makes Roman Catholics.
 

Marymog

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When Catholics do "research" they are doing it with a previously determined outcome.

And I did not suggest doing a theological study of the scriptures....I kept suggesting that you do a study of the geography, topography, anthropology, and history of the LOCATION.
Because the location is of utmost importance in this passage of scripture.... especially when the information gained by their dialog is already well established in all of the preceeding lengthy chapters of Matthew.

The Old Covenant was based primarily upon three individuals. Abraham, Jacob, and Moses. The rewards for following the Laws were financial and legacies. The New Covenant was going to be very different in this respect with no codified laws but a very definitive description of hearts and attitudes which governed behaviors. There also was to be a "brotherhood of suffering" which was the exact opposite of blessings.
When Protestants do "research" they are doing it with a previously determined outcome. Whatever a Protestant church father says it IS Gods word....that is unless they agree with The Catholic Church, then what they say is NOT God's word.
 

Marymog

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I dont blame you for not responding to all the points i made about the people in your religion, and what they do.
After all, you'd have to find a "church father's" answer.


So, You make a mistake when you refer to the man made "cult of Mary" that created the DARK AGES as : "The Church".

See, only a Catholic would see it that way, and think that way.
That's a fact.

Here is another one for you.... @Marymog

GOD makes CHRISTians.

Catholics make Catholics.

The Pope makes Roman Catholics.
Who do YOU find for answers?

Protestant men? Or yourself?

Me thinks YOU find the answers and everyone else is wrong.....unless they agree with YOU.
 

BlessedPeace

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Jesus,The Word of God made flesh,is the rock upon which His church was,is,constructed. The church being not an edifice built by men overtop a pagan graveyard.

Rather, the church comprised of the faithful redeemed by the blood of the lamb.
Peter was an elder, he was NOT Messiah. And we are not saved by holding faith in Peter. The Gospel is not the word of Peter


Psalms 18 (ESV) The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

1 Corinthians 10:1
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
 

Marymog

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About Peter being the first stone laid? We've been around and around this.

Much love!
Nope. Nice dodge though. Kudo's to you.
 
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Marymog

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When Catholics do "research" they are doing it with a previously determined outcome.

And I did not suggest doing a theological study of the scriptures....I kept suggesting that you do a study of the geography, topography, anthropology, and history of the LOCATION.
Because the location is of utmost importance in this passage of scripture.... especially when the information gained by their dialog is already well established in all of the preceeding lengthy chapters of Matthew.

The Old Covenant was based primarily upon three individuals. Abraham, Jacob, and Moses. The rewards for following the Laws were financial and legacies. The New Covenant was going to be very different in this respect with no codified laws but a very definitive description of hearts and attitudes which governed behaviors. There also was to be a "brotherhood of suffering" which was the exact opposite of blessings.
According to Papias and Irenaeus the Gospel of Matthew was written in Aramaic. According to my Google search (which you recommended I do) when Matthew 16 got translated from Aramaic they didn't translate YOU into YOU ALL.

Help me out here....can you give me a link from Google that supports what you are saying?
 

Marymog

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When Jesus said "I will give/grant you the keys" the "you" is neuter which in this context is an equivalent to the US SouthelEastern slang "Y'all" meaning all the Apostles....because this is a lesson that Jesus is teaching.
Access to entrance into Heaven at physical death is a foregone conclusion at this point...what Jesus is referring to with the keys is access to the store rooms of treasure/money and power to do anything from healing to moving mountains.

Where the Catholics use this set of verses to claim Peter is whom Jesus is going to build his church upon...that is out of character for the new Covenant and completely disregards the history and other very specific elements known broadly in the anthropology of the location.

Where the "Sending of the 12" account as illustrated by Mark's Gospel in contrast with the other 3 gospels quite definitively point to Peter's leadership of the Apostles....this discourse in Matthew teaches what primary driving principle is what Jesus is going to build his church upon.

I highly suggest that you look amongst the secular scientists who can explain the anthropology, history, geography and other facets of the location.
Soooo YOU means every Christian is the rock? And every Christian has keys?

Curious Mary
 

Marymog

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I dont blame you for not responding to all the points i made about the people in your religion, and what they do.
After all, you'd have to find a "church father's" answer.


So, You make a mistake when you refer to the man made "cult of Mary" that created the DARK AGES as : "The Church".

See, only a Catholic would see it that way, and think that way.
That's a fact.

Here is another one for you.... @Marymog

GOD makes CHRISTians.

Catholics make Catholics.

The Pope makes Roman Catholics.
Why do you always put cult of Mary in quotes? WHO are you quoting?

Curious Mary
 

Illuminator

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When Catholics do "research" they are doing it with a previously determined outcome.

And I did not suggest doing a theological study of the scriptures....I kept suggesting that you do a study of the geography, topography, anthropology, and history of the LOCATION.
Because the location is of utmost importance in this passage of scripture.... especially when the information gained by their dialog is already well established in all of the preceeding lengthy chapters of Matthew.
Matt. 16:18-19 – to further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

Matt. 16:13 – also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to rock in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built.


"I kept suggesting that you do a study of the geography,"
Keep suggesting.
 
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Marymog

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Jesus,The Word of God made flesh,is the rock upon which His church was,is,constructed. The church being not an edifice built by men overtop a pagan graveyard.

Rather, the church comprised of the faithful redeemed by the blood of the lamb.
Peter was an elder, he was NOT Messiah. And we are not saved by holding faith in Peter. The Gospel is not the word of Peter


Psalms 18 (ESV) The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

1 Corinthians 10:1
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Hey blessedpeace,

Who said that The Church is an edifice built by men overtop a pagan graveyard? An edifice built by men overtop a pagan graveyard is A church where Christian meet. But I don't recall anyone saying a church (in new york, london, paris, etc) is THE CHURCH.

If the church is comprised of the faithful redeemed by the blood of the lamb then WHO do we go to so that we can fulfill Matthew 18:17? of the billions of Christians on this earth, WHO is the pillar and foundation of truth spoken of in Scripture?

Curious Mary
 

marks

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Nope. Nice dodge though. Kudo's to you.
It's your way of calling Peter the Rock upon which Christ would build His church, effectively sweeping aside that Christ is the Rock, and the foundation, and the church is build upon Him, none other.

And yes, this is what we've just been through a couple of times now. Don't worry, I'm good at following convoluted discussions, and not losing track of the point.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Your church (whichever one that is) so often has it's interpretation that seems to require that I ignore the actual words of the Bible. And I'm not about to do that.
Is that so? If you don't know "which is my church" how would you know whether it's interpretations disagree with you? I think you've got some presuppostions build into that.

But even so, I'm simply presenting the writing of Scritpure. The words in these passages seem clear, maybe they just don't seem clear to you?

Much love!
 
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Illuminator

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Why do you always put cult of Mary in quotes? WHO are you quoting?

Curious Mary
Because "Mary", who has nothing to do with the discussion, is the standard derailer that anti-Catholics like to use whenever they are losing an argument.
When Catholics do "research" they are doing it with a previously determined outcome.
You don't accept Protestant research either.

For the Protestant Reformers to rationalize breaking away from what was universally acknowledged in their culture as the Christian Church, it was necessary for them to deny the Catholic Church’s authority. To maintain their positions, they were forced to portray it as a kind of “anti-Church” that was unjustly claiming the prerogatives of Christ’s true (but invisible) Church.

Their chief target was, of course, the pope. To justify breaking away from the successor of Peter, they had to undercut the Petrine office itself. They were forced to deny the plain reading of Matthew 16:18—that Jesus made Peter the rock on which he would build his Church.

More recent Protestants have been able to back away from the position that early Protestants felt forced to make and have been able to admit that Peter is, indeed, the rock. It remains to be seen whether they will start drawing the necessary inferences from this fact.

Albert Barnes
Nineteenth-Century Presbyterian​

“The meaning of this phrase may be thus expressed: ‘Thou, in saying that I am the Son of God, hast called me by a name expressive of my true character. I, also, have given to thee a name expressive of your character. I have called you Peter, a rock. . . . I see that you are worthy of the name and will be a distinguished support of my religion” [Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, 170].

John Broadus
Nineteenth-Century Calvinistic Baptist​

“As Peter means rock, the natural interpretation is that ‘upon this rock’ means upon thee. . . . It is an even more far-fetched and harsh play upon words if we understand the rock to be Christ and a very feeble and almost unmeaning play upon words if the rock is Peter’s confession” [Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, 356].

Craig L. Blomberg
Contemporary Baptist​

“The expression ‘this rock’ almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following ‘the Christ’ in verse 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word ‘rock’ (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the Rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification” [New American Commentary: Matthew, 22:252].

J. Knox Chamblin
Contemporary Presbyterian​

“By the words ‘this rock’ Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter’s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself” [“Matthew” in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 742].

R. T. France
Contemporary Anglican​

“The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied” (Gospel According to Matthew, 254).

Herman Ridderbos
Contemporary Dutch Reformed​

“It is well known that the Greek word petra translated ‘rock’ here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (‘Peter’) to petra is that petra was the normal word for ‘rock.’ . . . There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that he was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words ‘on this rock [petra]’ indeed refer to Peter” [Bible Student’s Commentary: Matthew, 303].

Donald Hagner
Contemporary Evangelical​

“The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy” (Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

This is a partial of a much longer list.
 
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Marymog

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It's your way of calling Peter the Rock upon which Christ would build His church, effectively sweeping aside that Christ is the Rock, and the foundation, and the church is build upon Him, none other.

And yes, this is what we've just been through a couple of times now. Don't worry, I'm good at following convoluted discussions, and not losing track of the point.

Much love!
Hey marks,

Me and my fellow Christians will keep repeating Scripture instead of giving opinion. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church

You can keep repeating your opinion, it doesn't change what Scripture says.

Mary
 
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Marymog

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Is that so? If you don't know "which is my church" how would you know whether it's interpretations disagree with you? I think you've got some presuppostions build into that.

But even so, I'm simply presenting the writing of Scritpure. The words in these passages seem clear, maybe they just don't seem clear to you?

Much love!
Yes, that is so.

I don't know what denomination you belong to because......to the best of my memory....you have never said what denomination you belong to. Which denomination do you belong to marks?

NO, you are not "simply presenting the writing of Scripture". You are giving your interpretation of Scripture.

If you were simply presenting Scripture then you would "simply" say like I have said and The Church has taught for 2,000 years, thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church! If you say what Scripture says, I will agree with you. I CAN'T agree with you because you are NOT simply presenting Scripture and saying what Scripture says. Simple as pie kiddo....

Mary
 
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