Peter the Rock?

[Truthnightmare]

Heya!

If by 'Catholic' you mean the one, universal, body of Christ, then I would say most certainly! Because He is its authour and it is He who effects this in us..

And indeed it is also His prayer:

"I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,

so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.

And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,

I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.


It is He who unites us with Himself, and through Him with each other..

as St. Paul says:

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.


All are welcome to come, to the wedding Feat of the Lamb of God!

View attachment 40716


Pax et Bonum

That is a pleasant way of looking at it…

Before we have a church, we must have believers. The universal body of believers are Mormons, Baptist, JW’s, Seven day, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Catholics, Protestants, etc

It is the believers of Christ that make the Church…. Why is the Church, universal believers being associated with Catholics?

Corinthians 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[Zao is life]

Truthnightmare, I'm coming in a little late in the game here, which is why I went to the end of the thread to start.

I have to point out that this nonsense about the Church starting around 350 A.D. is demonstrably false, however. There was but one Church for the first 1000 years of Christianity. Then, the Orthodox splintered off in 1054 A.D. (Here's a good video that explains the Great Schism then:

)

The Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ. St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch ordained and appointed by St. Peter (the first man to hold the office we refer to as Pope) was captured by the Romans. While they were transporting him to be martyred for the faith, he wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans around 107-110 A.D. (long before Constantine was born), referring to the "Catholic Church," not in such a manner as if he were coining the term, but in such a manner in which he fully expected the Smyrnaeans to understand what he was talking about. It says in paragraph 8, "Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

See the entire letter here: https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Smyrnaeans.pdf

Catholic simply means "universal" and the words "catholic church" implies churches.

--- There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all. --- Ephesians 4:4-6

The above defines the word catholic. The unity is in the Spirit of Christ who is in the churches. The unity is not in "the church", and not in any one particular church, and not in your corruption of the word catholic.

No church owns the word "catholic". No organized body can replace God the Holy Spirit.

 

[Zao is life]

That is a pleasant way of looking at it…

Before we have a church, we must have believers. The universal body of believers are Mormons, Baptist, JW’s, Seven day, Lutheran, Pentecostal, Catholics, Protestants, etc

It is the believers of Christ that make the Church…. Why is the Church, universal believers being associated with Catholics?

Corinthians 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I agree that Catholic simply means "universal" and the words "catholic church" implies churches.

--- There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all. --- Ephesians 4:4-6

The above defines the word catholic. The unity is in the Spirit of Christ who is in the churches. The unity is not in "the church", and not in any one particular church. No church owns the word "catholic".

No organized body can replace God the Holy Spirit.

However, I'm not so sure that it would include Mormons and JW's. Theirs are separate gospels alien to the gospel preached by the apostles in that they have doctrines that are contrary to the doctrine of Jesus and His apostles and are alien to scripture.​

 

[Zao is life]

I'm sure you intended to make a point here???

He did make a point. You missed it, though most of us got it.

Seems you will never get it, because the practice of the church whose headquarters is at the Vatican, is to abide by the principle, "When the truth interferes with the lie", bury the truth under more lies".

Except that truth cannot be buried. Truth will eventually bury the lies - all the lies.

Many of the Vatican's doctrines and a number of other doctrines not produced by the Vatican or the Roman Catholic Church, are going to be buried by the sword that comes out of Christ's mouth, which is going to consume all those who preferred lies to His Word. The Vatican will be buried with all the lies.

 

[Illuminator]

Ah, okay. This is never about me. It's about truth. I'm always open to the truth. I have studied the faith for over 60 years now, and am always learning.

That said, nothing you or Cardinal Baronius said contradicts what I said regarding that there was but one Church founded by Christ, and thit is referred to as the "Catholic" Church early on. Nothing your or Cardinal Baronius said gives any evidence of the Catholic Church being founded in 350 A.D. or later. Why? Because there is no evidence. The evidence I provided from St. Ignatius of Antioch's letter proves that the Catholic Church existed at least at that time. We have to know true history, not revisionist history.

Even the renowned Protestant historian, J.N.D. Kelly, whose work Early Christian Doctrines has been used as a textbook in Christian colleges and seminaries around the world, readily admits, in his writing, that the Catholic Church was the original Church.

Renowned Protestant historians are the enemy of anti-Catholics.

 

[Zao is life]

Fair enough… take this into consideration…

Despite what the Catholic Church states, the Catholic Church cannot really trace it's roots all the way back to Peter one of the Twelve Apostles. And while the Roman Catholic hierarchy was founded about A.D. 350, after Constantine; The first real Catholic Church was not formed until A.D. 590-604 with the first real Pope being Gregory I (who refused the title!). The first Roman Bishop to adopt the title "Pope" was Boniface III in A.D. 610. So before that the world new nothing of a Pope.

Naturally, the Pope of Roman Catholicism could not make the claims to godly power on earth as he does today (the binding and loosing of souls in Purgatory, possessing the Keys to Heaven, Christ's Vicar on earth, sole authority to interpret Scripture, Sainting deceased people, Extreme Unction...) if it were disclosed that he is not in a direct line from Apostle Peter (Not that the wild claims to power by the Popery could ever be reconciled with Biblical Scripture anyway.

But it should be noted that Jesus did NOT appoint Peter to the headship of the Apostles and expressly forbade any such notion, as stated in:


But there were Christian Churches starting in 37 A.D. when there was established by Joseph of Arimathaea the first above ground church in the world at Glastonbury. Glastonbury lies in the heart of Somerset County, in southwest England. In early British times Glastonbury was actually a small island (the waters have since dried up - as late as the early part of the 16th century).

LONG BEFORE THERE WAS EITHER A PROTESTANT OR ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, THERE EXISTED AN IRISH CHURCH:

This is a true story which very few have any knowledge of today. The facts of its existence have been almost totally erased from history. Although, almost forgotten by those who should be concerned the most, there is substantial evidence extant to prove it's existence beyond all doubt. Actually the Irish church was established in 37 A.D. To have an understanding of the Irish church is an all important fact in understanding Irish genealogy. To get started with this phase of our study, we are going to quote again from the book, Father Abraham''s Children, by Perry Edwards Powell, Ph. D., pages 140-142:


Thus was established the first above ground church in the world at Glastonbury, in Britain. We are sure there are many who have never heard this particular story of Joseph of Arimathaea, and fewer yet understand its importance. For more insight on Joseph of Arimathaea, we will quote, The Traditions of Glastonbury, by E. Raymond Capt M.A., page 22:

Very informative and interesting post. I don't think I agree with everything you say in your posts, but the above post was very informative. Thank you.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Very informative and interesting post. I don't think I agree with everything you say in your posts, but the above post was very informative. Thank you.

Thank you Zao, we are all still learning. Peace to you.

 

[Truthnightmare]

However, I'm not so sure that it would include Mormons and JW's. Theirs are separate gospels alien to the gospel preached by the apostles in that they have doctrines that are contrary to the doctrine of Jesus and His apostles and are alien to scripture.​

What have they done to be excluded? Is their false believes enough to exclude them from the church (body) if they believe Christ is savior?

Matthew 5
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Both seem to put heavy restrictions on getting into heaven, and this should not be done.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

It would seem they will part of this…

tMatthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

or part of this….

Mark 9:40
For he that is not against us is on our part.

The Mormons come by and I talk with them, I have JW’s in my family… After every discussion with these organizations I tell my wife “These people are nuts”

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your Catholic Church will never be my final authority. We are told to obey Christ, not your church.

WRONG.

Matt. 18:15-18
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

To obey Christ is to obey the Authority of His CHURCH.
You reject Him Church – you reject HIM and the ONE who sent Him.

Good luck with that . . .

 

[RedFan]

WRONG.

Matt. 18:15-18
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I wonder if we can agree that Christ would not have used the word "church" here as a reference to the entire Church writ large, but rather only to a local assembly.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I wonder if we can agree that Christ would not have used the work "church" here as a reference to the entire Church writ large, but rather only to a local assembly.

Issues CAN be settled at the local level – and it’s better if they are. However – this is NOT always the case.

Clement of Rome was the 3rd Bishop of Rome (Pope). In the Epistle of Clement (circa, 80 AD) – he ruled on an issue that was taking place in the Church at Corinth. The local assembly had to appeal to a higher Authority to settle the matter. This happened while some of the Apostles were STILL alive.

Just as we read in Matt. 18:15-18, an issue usually starts at the lowest level, then it escalates, if necessary to the point where Church Authority makes the final ruling. That's the Biblical prescription.

How would you appply Matt. 18:15-18 to an issue betwen a Presbyterian and a Lutheran?

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Mormons come by and I talk with them, I have JW’s in my family… After every discussion with these organizations I tell my wife “These people are nuts”

How very "Christ-like" of you . . .

They're not "nuts". They need Christ - and YOU'RE supposed yo share Him with them.

 

[Truthnightmare]

WRONG.

Matt. 18:15-18
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

To obey Christ is to obey the Authority of His CHURCH.
You reject Him Church – you reject HIM and the ONE who sent Him.

Good luck with that . . .

You foolish person….

Revelation 2
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write…..

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

This church tells its people to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication.

So I’m suppose to commit fornication because the church says so…

Your church seems to think it’s ok to play with little boys… shall I do that to? God forbid!


ROME (AP) — Pope Francis formally approved letting Catholic priests bless same-sex couples, the Vatican announced Monday, a radical shift in policy that aimed at making the church more inclusive while maintaining its strict ban on gay marriage.

I deem your religion nasty and will never bow to a church that screws kids in dark rooms and sends blessings to abominations… and good luck to trying to make me kneel, you don’t want them problems… No point in discussing this any further… Passover is coming up and you should get ready to get on your knees and kiss the ring of a pope that promotes homosexuality. But you probably are on your knees for other reasons. Sicko!

 

[Truthnightmare]

How very "Christ-like" of you . . .

They're not "nuts". They need Christ - and YOU'RE supposed yo share Him with them.

I can call my friends and family nuts! They probably call me worse, but we still speak and consider each other friend and loved ones.
.you’re such a fragile little snowflake….

Always looking for an angle to stir up controversy… you reek of misery, and loneliness… Now go to your church built on Peter, pray to Mary, and get on your knees in front of a old man, and let me be, unless it be shown that your religion is the one of filth and the creator of gloryhole. I have confessions
of former Catholic priest on hand.

 

[RedFan]

Clement of Rome was the 3rd Bishop of Rome (Pope). In the Epistle of Clement (circa, 80 AD) – he ruled on an issue that was taking place in the Church at Corinth. The local assembly had to appeal to a higher Authority to settle the matter. This happened while some of the Apostles were STILL alive.

I don't read the Epistle of Clement of Rome to the Church at Corinth quite the same way you do. Just because it responds to a matter on which the Corinthians had apparently consulted Rome does not prove that these Corinthians must have recognized Rome’s hegemony. Nor does it suggest to me that Clement believed he had that kind of authority. Read its tenor, and one thing jumps out: this is not the writing of a man who thought he could impose his will in Greece. (Indeed, in chapter 56 he suggests to the dissenting Corinthians that “they should submit themselves, I do not say unto us, but unto the will of God.”)

 

[BreadOfLife]

You foolish person….

Revelation 2
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write…..

14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

This church tells its people to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication.

So I’m suppose to commit fornication because the church says so…

Your church seems to think it’s ok to play with little boys… shall I do that to? God forbid!

ROME (AP) — Pope Francis formally approved letting Catholic priests bless same-sex couples, the Vatican announced Monday, a radical shift in policy that aimed at making the church more inclusive while maintaining its strict ban on gay marriage.

I deem your religion nasty and will never bow to a church that screws kids in dark rooms and sends blessings to abominations… and good luck to trying to make me kneel, you don’t want them problems… No point in discussing this any further… Passover is coming up and you should get ready to get on your knees and kiss the ring of a pope that promotes homosexuality. But you probably are on your knees for other reasons. Sicko!

Let’s see how many things are wrong with this idiotic post . . .

Let’s start with you LIE about Pope Francis.
He never “formally approved letting Catholic priests bless same-sex couples”. The idiots who go around spreading this lie never actually READ the document. He gave approval to bless INDIVIDUALS involved in same-sex relationships. The “Blessing” is a prayer over the person to eventually abandon their lifestyle and embrace Christ and His commands.

YOU’D rather believe in the LIE because you are dishonest . . .

As to your manure about the priest sex scandal – the SAME thing is gong on in YOUR Protestant factions, only WORSE . . .

How Protestant Churches Hid Sexual Abuse ...
A History of Sex Abuse in the Protestant Imagination

FAQ: Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy - The Doan Law Firm
1 in 10 Young Protestants Have Left a Church Over Abuse

Evangelicals ‘worse’ than Catholics on sexual abuse

Evangelical Sex Abuse Record ‘Worse’ Than Catholic, Says Billy Graham’s Grandson

Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’

Child Sex Abuse More Prevalent Among Protestants Than Among Catholics

There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic

Catholic priests no guiltier of sex abuse than other clergy

Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy

Blogger Who Exposed Protestant Sex Abuse Cover Up Sued By Her Pastor

Denial About Sexual Abuse In Evangelical Churches

Southern Baptists Apologize For Sex Abuse Coverups

U.S. Protestants’ Views Mixed about Extent of Clergy Sexual Abuse

Churchgoers Split on Existence of More Sexual Abuse by Pastors

Confronting Evangelical Enabling of Sexual Abuse

Child abuse a Calvinist problem, podcast says

Protestant Churches Grapple With Growing Sexual Abuse Crisis

Sex Abuse Cases: New Allegations | Adventist Today​

 

[BreadOfLife]

I can call my friends and family nuts! They probably call me worse, but we still speak and consider each other friend and loved ones.
.you’re such a fragile little snowflake….

Always looking for an angle to stir up controversy… you reek of misery, and loneliness… Now go to your church built on Peter, pray to Mary, and get on your knees in front of a old man, and let me be, unless it be shown that your religion is the one of filth and the creator of gloryhole. I have confessions
of former Catholic priest on hand.

Soooo, doing what Scripture commands is being a "fragile snowflake"??
There is notheing Christ-like or even remotely Scriptural i your posts.

As for sitting in judgement and condemning the souls of others -
Matt. 7:2
For in the same way YOU judge others, YOU will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to YOU.

Good luck with that . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't read the Epistle of Clement of Rome to the Church at Corinth quite the same way you do. Just because it responds to a matter on which the Corinthians had apparently consulted Rome does not prove that these Corinthians must have recognized Rome’s hegemony. Nor does it suggest to me that Clement believed he had that kind of authority. Read its tenor, and one thing jumps out: this is not the writing of a man who thought he could impose his will in Greece. (Indeed, in chapter 56 he suggests to the dissenting Corinthians that “they should submit themselves, I do not say unto us, but unto the will of God.”)

Your missing the poimt.
The very fact that they had to appeal to the Bishop of Rome shows his Authoroty.

And you didn't answer my question:
How would you appply Matt. 18:15-18 to an issue betwen a Presbyterian and a Lutheran?

 

[RedFan]

Your missing the poimt.
The very fact that they had to appeal to the Bishop of Rome shows his Authoroty.

And you didn't answer my question:
How would you appply Matt. 18:15-18 to an issue betwen a Presbyterian and a Lutheran?

The word "appeal" is a loaded one. I prefer "consult." Because "consult" is the most we can infer from the internal textual evidence of the letter. We all consult the opinions of respected people all the time, but that is a far cry from bowing to their authority over us.

To answer your question, though: Presbyterians and Lutherans disagree on some issues, but that doesn't make one or the other a "sinner" in the sense used by Matt. 18:15-18.

 

[Zao is life]

What have they done to be excluded? Is their false believes enough to exclude them from the church (body) if they believe Christ is savior?

Matthew 5
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Both seem to put heavy restrictions on getting into heaven, and this should not be done.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

It would seem they will part of this…

tMatthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

or part of this….

Mark 9:40
For he that is not against us is on our part.

The Mormons come by and I talk with them, I have JW’s in my family… After every discussion with these organizations I tell my wife “These people are nuts”

I'm not really following you in the above post, sorry.

I have Mormon neighbors, and family of mine also have Mormon friends, and I like their conversation (the Mormons) because they stick to things that they know won't go against my strictly biblical, 'main-stream Christian' 'opinions'.

I've had long conversations with some very well-informed Mormon guys who come across as sane, reasonable and logical - unlike some Christians I know, who have the same "sola scriptura" 'main-stream' Christian doctrine I believe. In fact in my own experience it's always only been from among those who have strictly "Sola Scriptura" beliefs like I do, who have a 'hysterical' approach.

I have a brother who is a JW. We don't discuss our differences because we don't want to end up in the argument that we know we will end up in, if we do. We're fully aware of what our differences are. So that's enough.

I've had Catholic friends over the years too. In my experience they also always come across as sane and reasonable people, though I have major differences with the teaching of the Catholic Church - but I don't say things to get people's backs up against what I consider the real gospel. To me it's pointless attacking someone else's faith in a social situation because it will just cause them to close their ears to the biblical doctrine completely.

In these forums it's different because these forums are there for debate, and if Catholics want to open themselves up to having their faith attacked then they should be quiet instead of attacking or criticizing any so-called 'Protestant' doctrine.

I also have had Jewish friends. Only good people.​